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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 3:24:02 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Can we apply this to all killing of innocent persons, such as the bomber pilot ordered to destroy the house of a known terrorist knowing he will also kill the terrorists small children?
This is a different issue which is more political then biblical. In Psalm 139 it says God knits us together in the womb. This sounds like God is directly involved with our creation therefore i can't see how we have the right to destroy what God creates. My own feeling is that rape or incest or the mother's life may be moral exceptions but other then these situations what do you do with this Psalm?
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 3:43:09 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 138
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Jeez Drmark. Was not even thinkin bout u but seeing as how u so graciously responded on behalf of Sovereign and everyone else, for that matter, who insist legalized abortion is murder according to God and His word, well guess u warrant a response. There is not a dime's worth of difference between insisting abortion is murder and calling an 18 yr old female a murderer who finds herself pregnant and opts for legalized abortion. Not really, and the 18 yr old knows that quite well and have told me so. Ezek. 37 and the creation of Adam is not irrelevant to me or i wud not have posted them. A super member insisting they are irrelevant a it relates to legalized abortion does not make it so. There is also not a dime's worth of difference between ''guessing'' a Christian who has no ''issues'' with abortion (i personally, do not know any christian who fits into this category) tolerating fornication and lust and moral corruption. If a christian tolerates fornication that is moral corruption. On what basis do U assume i, or any other christian, for that matter have not taken this up with God? That is rank presumption. Changing things from the outside thru the political process has not worked out well in the past. Prohibition is the most recent example i can think of. It did not work and created more problems then it allegedly solved. Pro Lifers insist abortion is murder and seek to have Roe v. Wade overturned had better be prepared to build plenty more prisons to house all the murderers out there and the doctors and any person who aids and abets. The totalitarian implications are frightening. Am reluctant to jump on the bandwagon with all the other pro lifers insisting abortion is murder according to God as they merrily goose step their way towards a moral police state. There has got to be a better way. As it is, the prisons are full.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 3:45:50 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread is about the Scriptures that deal with abortion. This is NOT the thread to debate abortion itself. Please visit the Morality & Ethics folder for that debate and keep this one on the Scriptures that may or may not deal with abortion.
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 4:29:53 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If a christian tolerates fornication that is moral corruption. On what basis do U assume i, or any other christian, for that matter have not taken this up with God? Glad your communication channels with God are still open, lbr! Now, do you have any relevant comments on the seven (if I counted correctly) passages referenced on the first page of this thread?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 7:56:22 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
Let's think a little outside the box here folks. Biologically life begins at conception. Biblically it has to do with the ''breath of life'' entering the body. I found two examples of this in the Hebrew Scriptures. Genesis 2:7 ...Adam is formed from the dust of the ground and the breath of life is introduced after the body is formed? Genesis 2:7 is not explicit on this. There is also Ezekiel 37. The valley of dry bones. The body is formed first and the breath of life is introduced. Now one can apply these principles to the womb. At what point does the ''breath of life'' enter the fetus. At conception? No. No body is formed? U know i'm sure folks are gonna read this and smoke will be comming out of their ears. Biblically life begins when the breath of life is introduced and that does not necessarily mean conception.
The earliest reference i could find which directly addresses abortion is in the Didache. ''2. The second commandment in the Teaching means: Commit no murder, adultery, sodomy, fornication, or theft. Practise no magic, sorcery, abortion, or infanticide.''....''Beware of lust, my son, for lust leads to fornication. Likewise refrain from unclean talk and a roving eye, for these too can breed adultery.''
Perhaps we as Christians are whitewashed tombs and hypocrites. (Matt.23: 27-28) in that we seek change from the outside (banning abortion) while we tolerate fornication within our own ranks, lust within our hearts and have roving eyes. If i am the change i want to see in the world then i will not cherish lust in my heart and fornication is an absolute no no. Governments can legalize anything they want and they have. The Christian lives and dies by the standards set down in Scripture. Make no mistake about it, legalized abortion will end, it is just a question of when and under what circumstances. For now God our Father tolerates it.
From your reasoning, anything that doesn't breathe does not live. This is not backed up even by science. Anything that shows cell division, like mold, bacteria, amoebas, plants, & animals are considered to be alive. If we are going to redefine life, then someone needs to let science know.
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/5/2008 6:05:03 PM
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lightbeamrider
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Not writing about mold and bacteria. Am writing in regards to biblical definitions of life for humans as it relates to legalized abortion. Everybody assumes life begins at conception and that is probably true according to science. It may be biblically true also. It is not like science can take breath of life or the human soul, put it under a microscope and examine it. Therefore science has limitations. Folks like me do not assume based on biblical definitions; life begins at conception. To complicate things even further Jesus referred to people as dead even while they walked the Earth. ''Let the dead bury the dead.'' ''God is not the God of the dead, but of the living...'' According to science they had life. According to scripture they were dead. The scientist is just as capable of reading the New testament as anybody else. I am not going to go thru all the trouble of doing a book report on their behalf. Besides biblical definitions of life probably wud not interest most scientists anyway. Most of whom are stuck in the box of the material and outright deny the supernatural as myth, not only now but thousands of years ago. Let them do what they do. If studying mold and bacteria makes their day then so be it. God Bless U all, I have to go to work and fix the machines engineers design. For things fall apart...the centre cannot hold....according to WB Yeats...
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/6/2008 5:24:20 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3095
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quote:
For things fall apart...the centre cannot hold....according to WB Yeats... Personally, I'll go with Romans 8:28 according to Paul over nihilism according to Yeats:
...in all things God works for the good of those who love him...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/11/2008 12:06:36 AM
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heavenlycat80
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I find that when I read the Bible looking for a word on something, it just begins to jump out at me. I have recently begun constantly looking for some help defending my pro-life views, and one place that seems to apply is :
Psalm 10:12-15
12.Arise, Lord! Lift up your hand, O God. Do not forget the helpless.
13.Why does the wicked man revile God? Why does he say to himself, "He won't call me to account"?
14.But you, O God, do see trouble and grief; you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless.
15.Break the arm of the wicked and evil man; call him to account for his wickedness that would not be found out.
Can anyone else see how this could apply?
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/11/2008 12:50:55 AM
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ukfan
Posts: 347
Joined: 12/31/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
Pro Lifers insist abortion is murder and seek to have Roe v. Wade overturned had better be prepared to build plenty more prisons to house all the murderers out there and the doctors and any person who aids and abets. The totalitarian implications are frightening. Am reluctant to jump on the bandwagon with all the other pro lifers insisting abortion is murder according to God as they merrily goose step their way towards a moral police state. There has got to be a better way. As it is, the prisons are full.
Then why shouldn't we decriminalize murder? Sure would free up alot of room in jails. Or allow robbery. Outlawing robbery hasn't stopped people from doing it, so the laws must not be working right? And we wouldn't have to keep open all of those prisons. No more police state. Doesn't that sound a bit ridiculous?
The Scripture verse in Genesis dealing with the breath of life is specifically dealing with a new creation created not in utero. All subsequent human life is formed in utero which is described in Psalms.
Psa 139:13 For you formed my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb.
This describes the beginning of the Psalmist's life in the womb.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/11/2008 11:56:14 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3610
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
Let's think a little outside the box here folks. Biologically life begins at conception. Biblically it has to do with the ''breath of life'' entering the body. I found two examples of this in the Hebrew Scriptures. Genesis 2:7 ...Adam is formed from the dust of the ground and the breath of life is introduced after the body is formed? Genesis 2:7 is not explicit on this. There is also Ezekiel 37. The valley of dry bones. The body is formed first and the breath of life is introduced. Now one can apply these principles to the womb. At what point does the ''breath of life'' enter the fetus. At conception? No. No body is formed? U know i'm sure folks are gonna read this and smoke will be comming out of their ears. Biblically life begins when the breath of life is introduced and that does not necessarily mean conception.
There is absolutely no evidence that anyone in biblical times understood that the soul was endowed on a person when they breathed. All that we know from the OT, the Rabbinical writings, and writings of the early church stands in direct contradiction to this interpretation. This is a very modern distortion on what scripture says.
Here is some of what the early church had to say:
Barnabas: "You shall not kill either the fetus by abortion or the new born" (Letter of Barnabas, circa 125)
Anon: An unknown author writing circa 135 CE in The Apocalypse of Peter:
"I saw a gorge in which the discharge and excrement of the tortured ran down and became like a lake. There sat women, and the discharge came up to their throats; and opposite them sat many children, who were born prematurely, weeping. And from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women on the eyes. These were those who produced children outside of marriage, and who procured abortions."
"Those who slew the unborn children will be tortured forever, for God wills it to so."
Athenagoras: "We say that women who induce abortions are murderers, and will have to give account of it to God. For the same person, would not regard the child in the womb as a living being and therefore an object of God's care and then kill it.... But we are altogether consistent in our conduct. We obey reason and do not override it." Petition to Emperor Marcus Aurelius (121-180 CE), circa 150 CE
Clement of Alexandria: (circa 150 - 215 CE) "Our whole life can go on in observation of the laws of nature, if we gain dominion over our desires from the beginning and if we do not kill, by various means of a perverse art, the human offspring, born according to the designs of divine providence; for these women who, if order to hide their immorality, use abortive drugs which expel the child completely dead, abort at the same time their own human feelings." Paedagogus
Tertullian (circa 155 - 225 CE): "...we are not permitted, since murder has been prohibited to us once and for all, even to destroy ...the fetus in the womb. It makes no difference whether one destroys a life that has already been born or one that is in the process of birth."
St. Hippolytus (circa 170-236 CE): "Reputed believes began to resort to drugs for producing Sterility and to gird themselves round, so as to expel what was conceived on account of their not wanting to have a child either by a slave or by any paltry fellow, for the sake of their family and excessive wealth. Behold, into how great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by inculcating adultery and murder at the same time." From "Refutation of all Heresies" 9:7
Minicius Felix (a Christian lawyer; circa 180 - 225 CE): "Some women take medicines to destroy the germ of future life in their own bodies. They commit infanticide before they have given birth to the infant"
St. Basil the Great (circa 330 - 379 CE): "She who has deliberately destroyed a fetus has to pay the penalty of murder...here it is not only the child to be born that is vindicated, but also the woman herself who made an attempt against her own life, because usually the women die in such attempts. Furthermore, added to this is the destruction of the child, another murder... Moreover, those, too, who give drugs causing abortion are deliberate murderers themselves, as well as those receiving the poison which kills the fetus." Letter 188:2
St. Ambrose: (339 to 397 CE) "The poor expose their children, the rich kill the fruit of their own bodies in the womb, lest their property be divided up, and they destroy their own children in the womb with murderous poisons. and before life has been passed on, it is annihilated."
St. John Chrysostom (circa 340 - 407 CE): "Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? Where there are many efforts at abortion? Where there is murder before the birth? For you do not even let the harlot remain a mere harlot, but make her a murderer also. You see how drunkenness leads to whoredom, whoredom to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather something even worse than murder. For I have no real name to give it, since it does not destroy the thing born but prevents its being born. Why then do you abuse the gift of God and fight with His laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the place of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter?" Homily 24 on Romans
St. Jerome (circa 342-420 CE): "They drink potions to ensure sterility and are guilty of murdering a human being not yet conceived. Some, when they learn that they are with child through sin, practice abortion by the use of drugs. Frequently they die themselves and are brought before the rulers of the lower world guilty of three crimes: suicide, adultery against Christ, and murder of an unborn child." Letter 22:13
Tertullian circa 160-240 CE:
"For us [Christians] we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter when you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one: you have the fruit already in the seed." Apology 9:6
"They [John and Jesus] were both alive while still in the womb. Elizabeth rejoiced as the infant leaped in her womb; Mary glorifies the Lord because Christ within inspired her. Each mother recognizes her child and is known by her child who is alive, being not merely souls but also spirits." De A ninta 26:4
The Didache (also known as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles") dates from the first half of the second century CE. It states: "Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion." (2:2) It also says that "The Way of Death is filled with people who are...murderers of children and abortionists of God's creatures." (5:1-2)
The Synod of Elvira, held in Spain in 306 CE: "If a woman becomes pregnant by committing adultery, while her husband is absent, and after the act she destroys the child, it is proper to keep her from communion until death, because she has doubled her crime." Canon 63.
The Synod of Ancyra, held in 314 CE, condemned abortion. The penalty was 10 years of penance
The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape. "Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed." 7:3:15 This document claimed to have been written by the apostles. However, it was actually written late in the 4th century CE at about the time that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and serious oppression of Paganism started.
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