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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/3/2008 2:26:19 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
No, it's more like 300 years of increasing temps that correlate to the end of the Maunder Minimum (Little Ice Age).
Anybody notice that the articles in Marcus' post claim that there's been NO rise in temps since '98, maybe even a decrease since '01? I've heard that elsewhere, too.
Direct measurement of global temperatures and atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases is a very new thing - less than 50 years old. Everything that these scientists are prognosticating about is based on inferential analysis by measuring it in ice cores, tree rings and who knows what else. Inferential analysis is at best an "educated guess" and given our meteorologists great "success" at predicting the day's weather to the nearest degree (  ) I tend to doubt their ability to predict any trends with any accuracy.
BTW, we are enjoying an unseasonably mild summer here. We have averaged 5-8 degrees lower than average temps. Since these "greenhouse gases" are "directly" related to "warming" this should not be occurring.
BTW here are the "greenhouse gases" and their stated "contribution" to GW.
The most important greenhouse gases are:
water vapor, which causes about 36–70% of the greenhouse effect on Earth. (Note clouds typically affect climate differently from other forms of atmospheric water.)
carbon dioxide, which causes 9–26%
methane, which causes 4–9%
ozone, which causes 3–7% Link
Since water vapor causes 2-3 times as much of an effect on global warming than CO2 maybe we should place a moratorium on swimming pools since the multiplication of these could be considered to contribute to evaporation and thus the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere. "Save the nation say no to evaporation!"
< Message edited by mapachito13 -- 9/3/2008 2:39:46 PM >
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/3/2008 4:29:03 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2998
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Straw man / false dilemma / slippery slope much? Or did you not even realize that that is what your 'rebuttal' amounted to?
If you want to return to the days before the Industrial Revolution, I am sure that there is a cave near you that will accomdate you. You can wash your clothes in the nearest stream, lug your water from that stream, and go to the bathroom in the hole behind your cave.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/3/2008 9:04:35 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
A hundred and eighty years of increasing average temparatures, corrolated to a parellel increase in the release of artificial greenhouse gases, almost perfectly conicident to the Industrial Revolution.
When science uses a conclusion as their starting point...its not observational science.....its an agenda.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/3/2008 9:36:56 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
A hundred and eighty years of increasing average temparatures, corrolated to a parellel increase in the release of artificial greenhouse gases, almost perfectly conicident to the Industrial Revolution.
When science uses a conclusion as their starting point...its not observational science.....its an agenda.
What makes you think that they started off with the conclusion that the earth was warming it and we were causing it? And even if they did, have further observations and measurements supported that hypothesis?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/3/2008 10:30:16 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
So then the fear-mongering over global warming is based on what exactly?
A hundred and eighty years of increasing average temparatures, corrolated to a parellel increase in the release of artificial greenhouse gases, almost perfectly conicident to the Industrial Revolution.
Well first of all, I don't believe that. I do hope you are not referring to Al Gore's charts and graphs though, or I may end up laughing so hard I get a stitch in my side...
Also, if this information you gave me is true, then how do you account for the previous ice age? It would seem in order for your above statement to make sense then the answer would need to be the lack of vehicles and burning of fossil fuels, which makes no sense whatsoever.
No science worth the diplomas on his wall will tell you that there aren't multiple factors at work. The theory of anthropogenic global warming is based on the fact that once you account for all the natural variations, there's still some left over that's likely attributable to us.
For more reading on the ice ages, wikipedia is a good start.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/3/2008 10:33:57 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
No science worth the diplomas on his wall will tell you that there aren't multiple factors at work. The theory of anthropogenic global warming is based on the fact that once you account for all the natural variations, there's still some left over that's likely attributable to us.
For more reading on the ice ages, wikipedia is a good start.
-Dan.
Well some people will tell you the only factor is mankind, so....
Anyway, have you ever heard of an actual figure or percentage of warming that some attribute to man? I will be looking into this later as well, I was kinda busy most of the day today so I had no time, but I'll get to it.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 7:09:24 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Anyway, have you ever heard of an actual figure or percentage of warming that some attribute to man? I will be looking into this later as well, I was kinda busy most of the day today so I had no time, but I'll get to it.
I haven't seen a percentage like "mankind is responsible for X% while nature is responsible for Y%" What I have seen is that since about 1950, nature was actually having a cooling effect, so likely all of the warming since then on us. From pre-industrial times until the 50's, nature provided some warming effect, but I have not seen percentages of responsibility.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 7:34:58 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Anyway, have you ever heard of an actual figure or percentage of warming that some attribute to man? I will be looking into this later as well, I was kinda busy most of the day today so I had no time, but I'll get to it.
I haven't seen a percentage like "mankind is responsible for X% while nature is responsible for Y%" What I have seen is that since about 1950, nature was actually having a cooling effect, so likely all of the warming since then on us. From pre-industrial times until the 50's, nature provided some warming effect, but I have not seen percentages of responsibility.
-Dan.
That really defies common sense though. How would anyone really be able to say that?
And are they accounting for variations that may be caused by the sun also or just the earth alone?
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 8:20:04 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Anyway, have you ever heard of an actual figure or percentage of warming that some attribute to man? I will be looking into this later as well, I was kinda busy most of the day today so I had no time, but I'll get to it.
I haven't seen a percentage like "mankind is responsible for X% while nature is responsible for Y%" What I have seen is that since about 1950, nature was actually having a cooling effect, so likely all of the warming since then on us. From pre-industrial times until the 50's, nature provided some warming effect, but I have not seen percentages of responsibility.
-Dan.
That really defies common sense though. How would anyone really be able to say that?
And are they accounting for variations that may be caused by the sun also or just the earth alone?
Yes, all the natural variations. Orbital changes, solar output, volcanoes, etc. If you want to argue that they missed something or calculated something incorrectly, go ahead. But that's the jist of it.
As to how they figure out what causes what - they have a lot of sensors in a lot of places measuring a lot of things. They can measure the output of the sun, the gas content of the atmosphere, the amount of suspended aerosols, the variations of earth's orbit, etc and calculate how much effect they have on the temperature.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 8:30:19 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
What makes you think that they started off with the conclusion that the earth was warming it and we were causing it?
Becuase its the only validation for global warming being caused in great part by man...agenda driven "science".
Never look at what someone is saying is wrong. Look at their solutions and in them, you will find their agendas.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 8:46:15 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Anyway, have you ever heard of an actual figure or percentage of warming that some attribute to man? I will be looking into this later as well, I was kinda busy most of the day today so I had no time, but I'll get to it.
I haven't seen a percentage like "mankind is responsible for X% while nature is responsible for Y%" What I have seen is that since about 1950, nature was actually having a cooling effect, so likely all of the warming since then on us. From pre-industrial times until the 50's, nature provided some warming effect, but I have not seen percentages of responsibility.
-Dan.
That really defies common sense though. How would anyone really be able to say that?
And are they accounting for variations that may be caused by the sun also or just the earth alone?
Yes, all the natural variations. Orbital changes, solar output, volcanoes, etc. If you want to argue that they missed something or calculated something incorrectly, go ahead. But that's the jist of it.
As to how they figure out what causes what - they have a lot of sensors in a lot of places measuring a lot of things. They can measure the output of the sun, the gas content of the atmosphere, the amount of suspended aerosols, the variations of earth's orbit, etc and calculate how much effect they have on the temperature.
-Dan.
Well then sorry to say I am just never going to believe these fellows.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 8:52:27 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
What makes you think that they started off with the conclusion that the earth was warming it and we were causing it?
Becuase its the only validation for global warming being caused in great part by man...
On what do you base that claim?
quote:
Never look at what someone is saying is wrong. Look at their solutions and in them, you will find their agendas.
Unless you want to argue about research grant money, how does a meteorologist or a geologist benefit from supporting the theory of anthropogenic climate change? It's the engineers and patent holders who are going to make all the money fixing it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Well then sorry to say I am just never going to believe these fellows.
Why not? What about their argument is to convince you? Or to frame it differently, what does the opposition have that does convince you?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 9:02:15 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Well then sorry to say I am just never going to believe these fellows.
Why not? What about their argument is to convince you? Or to frame it differently, what does the opposition have that does convince you?
-Dan.
Because of the time frame. I do not know how someone can honestly say that technology allows them to suddenly know the exact temperature the earth should be sitting at. The technology to measure and track such information is still very, very new in comparison to the age of the earth. How can they say with certainty? How can they say with certainty that the same thing has never happened before? Before mankind was here "messing everything up"?
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 9:15:12 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Well then sorry to say I am just never going to believe these fellows.
Why not? What about their argument is to convince you? Or to frame it differently, what does the opposition have that does convince you?
-Dan.
Because of the time frame. I do not know how someone can honestly say that technology allows them to suddenly know the exact temperature the earth should be sitting at. The technology to measure and track such information is still very, very new in comparison to the age of the earth. How can they say with certainty? How can they say with certainty that the same thing has never happened before? Before mankind was here "messing everything up"?
I'll conceded that a lot of the language used, particularly in the popular media, is too emotional or at least a bit misguided. We're not "destroying" the earth. Assuming the climate scientists are right (and I believe they are), we're changing things. Some areas will be affected negatively and some will be affected positively. My biggest concern about all of this is not that nature won't be able to adapt(because it will), but that people won't be able to adapt. For example, what's going to happen to weather patterns in areas that are already experiencing long-term drought and famine - are those problems going to get worse? What's going to happen to poor seaside communities? Will the frequency and severity of hurricanes increase? How will air-quality-related health problems (e.g. asthma) be affected? How will warmer oceans affect sea life and the rest of the food chain?
There is evidence that at times in the past, the earth was a much nastier place to be due to a variety of things including meteor strikes and massive volcanic eruptions - so I have no doubt that nature can kick it up a notch at times, too. So, in a sense, these things have happened in the past, but they took a LONG time to correct.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 11:29:19 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 440
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
Never look at what someone is saying is wrong. Look at their solutions and in them, you will find their agendas.
Unless you want to argue about research grant money, how does a meteorologist or a geologist benefit from supporting the theory of anthropogenic climate change? It's the engineers and patent holders who are going to make all the money fixing it.
It IS the research grant money, and advancement in their field vs. possible loss of their positions or reputation if they are labeled 'deniers'. Plus, if you are a GW skeptic, you'll never get interviewed by CNN or PBS for yet another alarmist documentary about 'Our Doomed Planet'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Well then sorry to say I am just never going to believe these fellows.
quote:
Why not? What about their argument is to convince you? Or to frame it differently, what does the opposition have that does convince you?
Ooh! ooh! I know! We'll never believe these fellows because they are ALWAYS wrong about environmental disasters. I've been hearing these things all my life! By all accounts, half of us should be dead from over-population by now, not to mention the ozone layer depletion, acid rain, the Jupiter effect, the new Ice Age, etc.
The opposition has evidence to suggest that the rise in temps is part of cyclical changes in Earth's climate that are observable through history. They also have evidence to suggest that sun spots and volcanos are causing not only temperature changes, but also melting ice. And again, these are OBSERVABLE. That's what science is all about. All the GW alarmists have are computer models, which are proving innacurate already.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 12:12:56 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Straw man / false dilemma / slippery slope much? Or did you not even realize that that is what your 'rebuttal' amounted to?
If you want to return to the days before the Industrial Revolution, I am sure that there is a cave near you that will accomdate you. You can wash your clothes in the nearest stream, lug your water from that stream, and go to the bathroom in the hole behind your cave.
Thereby proving my point, by simply repeating your (flawed) argument.
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 2:29:31 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
Joined: 10/1/2007
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In post #51 I stated and showed the link for the fact that water vapor has 2-3 times more effect on "global warming" than CO2. Hydrogen cell cars output water vapor as the end result. With millions of more sources of water vapor won't we be making the "problem" worse?
That's "sound" environmental "science" for you!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: It's NOT Global Warming! - 9/4/2008 3:26:19 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
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Well hey, if we're really on our way into another "little ice age" then look at it this way, we're not warming the earth's temperature, we're balancing the earth's temperature.
For all we know that was the way God planned it, right?
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being i'm an old duffer having gone to school in the 50's and 60's i remember being taught that the earth was in a warming cycle which would likely last thousands of years after which would be a cooling cycle resulting in another ice age in about 50 thousand years
