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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/7/2008 9:09:56 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Paul said that food restrictions were of a lesser faith. He did not say they were wrong...He defined them as having less faith.
The jews would have physical reminders of their relationship with God on their person.
Hm. Very interesting. I do not at all agree, but I certainly am trying really hard to see what this has to do with the subject.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/7/2008 11:06:12 PM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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about food restrictions...we had an awesome time learning about unhealthy we are tonight at church..and my friend and I are changing our diets...
visit hallelujahacres.com
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"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/7/2008 11:26:50 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Topic, please.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 9:33:36 AM
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SonInMe1
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Paul was saying that the way some people express their faiths can be lesser and the way they were less was depending on more tangable aspects of faith such as physical representations or symbols ( sp ).
The cross as a physical reminder of what Jesus did on the corss is simular to the "tassles" a jew would carry. ( If I remember correctly the pharesees would wear something else on thier chests as well )
This can also be corrletated to things like communion and circumcision. Those who believe you literally eat Christ's body and drink His blood and say its necessary for salvation to me have a lesser faith because they need a work, or physical representation of what in truth was a spiritual event already done and essentially as a saved person is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Ceremonies are symbolic today because of the work on the cross. They hold no other importance other than as worship. They are not needed for salvation. Most are done in rememberence. They hold absolutly no spiritual effect or power.
If a cross floats your boat, no problem but don't dis me because I....don't need one to remember my Lord and what He did for me.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 2:59:12 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Jesus and His resurrected life...is our salvation. The Church has stressed the death of Christ to the exclusion of the resurrection of Christ. And we are not saved through Christ's death, we are saved through His resurrected life...
Romans 5:10
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life"
The cross is important, in that, it is what made it possible for us to be saved, by reconciling us to God. But it is not salvation. The wages of sin is death, and the only solution to death is life...
1 Corinthians 15:14,17
"If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
Jesus Christ is alive! The reason Jesus is the only way is because Jesus alone has life. He is the solution to mans problem, and mans problem is that he is dead and needs life...
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Peace
So you are saying that there is no way that the theif on the cross was saved???
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 3:36:35 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1211
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Jesus and His resurrected life...is our salvation. The Church has stressed the death of Christ to the exclusion of the resurrection of Christ. And we are not saved through Christ's death, we are saved through His resurrected life...
Romans 5:10
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life"
The cross is important, in that, it is what made it possible for us to be saved, by reconciling us to God. But it is not salvation. The wages of sin is death, and the only solution to death is life...
1 Corinthians 15:14,17
"If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
Jesus Christ is alive! The reason Jesus is the only way is because Jesus alone has life. He is the solution to mans problem, and mans problem is that he is dead and needs life...
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Peace
So you are saying that there is no way that the theif on the cross was saved???
Thanks
RC
Nope, I am not.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 3:47:41 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Jesus and His resurrected life...is our salvation. The Church has stressed the death of Christ to the exclusion of the resurrection of Christ. And we are not saved through Christ's death, we are saved through His resurrected life...
Romans 5:10
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life"
The cross is important, in that, it is what made it possible for us to be saved, by reconciling us to God. But it is not salvation. The wages of sin is death, and the only solution to death is life...
1 Corinthians 15:14,17
"If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
Jesus Christ is alive! The reason Jesus is the only way is because Jesus alone has life. He is the solution to mans problem, and mans problem is that he is dead and needs life...
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Peace
So you are saying that there is no way that the theif on the cross was saved???
Thanks
RC
Nope, I am not.
Peace
But you say that the ressurrection is the most important; not the death on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 3:53:26 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1211
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Jesus and His resurrected life...is our salvation. The Church has stressed the death of Christ to the exclusion of the resurrection of Christ. And we are not saved through Christ's death, we are saved through His resurrected life...
Romans 5:10
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life"
The cross is important, in that, it is what made it possible for us to be saved, by reconciling us to God. But it is not salvation. The wages of sin is death, and the only solution to death is life...
1 Corinthians 15:14,17
"If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
Jesus Christ is alive! The reason Jesus is the only way is because Jesus alone has life. He is the solution to mans problem, and mans problem is that he is dead and needs life...
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Peace
So you are saying that there is no way that the theif on the cross was saved???
Thanks
RC
Nope, I am not.
Peace
But you say that the ressurrection is the most important; not the death on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.
Thanks
RC
It's all important. Life is the answer to the condition of man, which is that he is dead and in need of life. If Christ has not risen, then we are all still dead in our sins.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 5:37:01 PM
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kisstheson
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The point of thios thread is to say we need both. You can't have the resurrection without the cross. More and more churches today are doing away with the preaching of the cross. neither do they display the cross as they used to in times past.
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This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 6:33:10 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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A similar complaint was voiced often, some years ago, that the churches have done away with the blood of Messiah. I saw what they were talking about then and since then, in that statements were made that people didn't want a "bloody" religion, songs were rejected for their being "bloody," the blood ceased to be mentioned in pulpits, etc. From my experience, this outcry was far more legitimate.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 8:29:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I AM! Thank G-d! Praise His Name.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 9:17:36 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
The point of thios thread is to say we need both. You can't have the resurrection without the cross. More and more churches today are doing away with the preaching of the cross. neither do they display the cross as they used to in times past.
I think you hit the nail on the head: You can't have the resurrection without the cross.
I think that too many churches today focus on the glory of the resurrection and ignore the suffering of the cross. This manifests itself in preaching the false message that if you are a true follower of Christ, everything should always be just hunky-dorry. Instead of reassuring people that Jesus is with them even during the bad times in their lives, they are given the false picture of the "happy-clappy" Christian being the "real" Christian. I suspect that Ned Flanders belongs to a church like that.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 9:21:17 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
A similar complaint was voiced often, some years ago, that the churches have done away with the blood of Messiah. I saw what they were talking about then and since then, in that statements were made that people didn't want a "bloody" religion, songs were rejected for their being "bloody," the blood ceased to be mentioned in pulpits, etc. From my experience, this outcry was far more legitimate.
seems almost identical to me.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/8/2008 9:51:06 PM
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sisrev
Posts: 855
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From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
A similar complaint was voiced often, some years ago, that the churches have done away with the blood of Messiah. I saw what they were talking about then and since then, in that statements were made that people didn't want a "bloody" religion, songs were rejected for their being "bloody," the blood ceased to be mentioned in pulpits, etc. From my experience, this outcry was far more legitimate.
seems almost identical to me.
If it's identical, why do we see imitations/copies of the cross set up as symbols of our faith, and yet we don't have fake blood set up as a symbol of our salvation?
No one is saying that we should not teach the doctrine of the cross, or quit singing about it, just that it's not necessary to have a physical symbol to remind us of what Christ did there, any more than we need pools of fake blood to do so. No one, to my knowledge, is berating anyone for having a cross as a symbol, the only berating I see is from those who state that the lack of said symbol is somehow indicative of a lack of faith or sound doctrine.
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:28:08 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
The point of thios thread is to say we need both. You can't have the resurrection without the cross. More and more churches today are doing away with the preaching of the cross. neither do they display the cross as they used to in times past.
I think you hit the nail on the head: You can't have the resurrection without the cross.
I think that too many churches today focus on the glory of the resurrection and ignore the suffering of the cross. This manifests itself in preaching the false message that if you are a true follower of Christ, everything should always be just hunky-dorry. Instead of reassuring people that Jesus is with them even during the bad times in their lives, they are given the false picture of the "happy-clappy" Christian being the "real" Christian. I suspect that Ned Flanders belongs to a church like that.
Yup. yup. yup!!!
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:31:13 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sisrev
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
A similar complaint was voiced often, some years ago, that the churches have done away with the blood of Messiah. I saw what they were talking about then and since then, in that statements were made that people didn't want a "bloody" religion, songs were rejected for their being "bloody," the blood ceased to be mentioned in pulpits, etc. From my experience, this outcry was far more legitimate.
seems almost identical to me.
If it's identical, why do we see imitations/copies of the cross set up as symbols of our faith, and yet we don't have fake blood set up as a symbol of our salvation?
No one is saying that we should not teach the doctrine of the cross, or quit singing about it, just that it's not necessary to have a physical symbol to remind us of what Christ did there, any more than we need pools of fake blood to do so. No one, to my knowledge, is berating anyone for having a cross as a symbol, the only berating I see is from those who state that the lack of said symbol is somehow indicative of a lack of faith or sound doctrine.
So then please tell my why some modern churches are removing the cross and putting up a globe or international flags? You are aware that only in this generation the cross has been lacking in our houses of worship?
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:35:01 AM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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I think the symbolism that needs to be presented more often then it is is that of communion! That is how Jesus wanted us to remember Him. Not the cross and not the Resurrection, but that of the sharing in communion with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
"Do this in remembrance of Me..."
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:39:09 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 984
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
A similar complaint was voiced often, some years ago, that the churches have done away with the blood of Messiah. I saw what they were talking about then and since then, in that statements were made that people didn't want a "bloody" religion, songs were rejected for their being "bloody," the blood ceased to be mentioned in pulpits, etc. From my experience, this outcry was far more legitimate.
Now you are getting it. This is another symtom of the lack of preaching about the cross and the sufferings of Jesus. Removing the cross as reminder of His sacrifice from our houses of worship is another sign of dissing the true message. Its a sign of the secularization of christianity. Its interesting that in communist china and in the former U.S.S.R. all symbols of religion were removed. That won't happen here? We are asleep at the wheel.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:40:26 AM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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Woah! I was under the impression that Jesus was the message and that He STANDS for Himself. Everything else is just details...
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:46:56 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
I think the symbolism that needs to be presented more often then it is is that of communion! That is how Jesus wanted us to remember Him. Not the cross and not the Resurrection, but that of the sharing in communion with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
"Do this in remembrance of Me..."
His words were spoken in this context..."This is My body broken for you. This is My blood which is shed for you. Remember me."
Paul said we are to remember the sacrifice until He comes again. Please read some church history. For two thousand years Christians recalled the sufferings of Christ when they had communion. Only in this generation our focus has turned from the cross.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:50:37 AM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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I'm aware of the context. And so what you are saying is that during communion the focus was the cross? Correct me if I am wrong?
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:52:19 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
Woah! I was under the impression that Jesus was the message and that He STANDS for Himself. Everything else is just details...
when painting a beautiful picture are the details not important? That's like Jesus standing here in front of you and showing you His wounds and saying, "eh, details aren't important."
What did Paul mean when he said, "I want to know Him in the fellowship of His sufferings." How can we truly know Him that way if we are unwilling to consider the details of His sufferings?
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:54:49 AM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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Okay, so details are important, but all the details and the way they worked together to me seem to be more important.
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 12:56:23 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
I'm aware of the context. And so what you are saying is that during communion the focus was the cross? Correct me if I am wrong?
Yes. "This is my body broken for you. this is my blood shed for you." We are to remember the cross and what he suffered for us. Paul also said we are not to partake of communion in an unworthy manner. loving others is also important. when you come to the lord's table there should be no unforgiveness in your heart towards another...for example.
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This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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I don't see why they should be, I mean, we're covered by the blood of Christ, we're in essence all particularly bloody.
