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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 1:47:03 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
Why don't you fill up your pit with some water, jump in, and cool off, Ollie? I ask where in the Bible you are so convicted about something, and all you do is blow the request off. You still haven't asked me for anything...
from post 55
quote:
again where is your scripture?
what do you suppose communion is for?
why does paul describe conversion as being crucified with Christ?
from post 53
quote:
i offered scripture for the cross perspective. where's yours?
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 8:13:52 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
did you really think we were talking about the actual wood as being special or working some kind of spiritual act?
Obviously. Why have it adorn your church if it means nothing? Why start or defend a thread about...superficial...expressions of faith?
Ask Peter or John if they would want a cross in their church or hanging around their neck and I'll bet they would look at you pretty strangly.
By not having a cross around my neck or at my church or a painting of Jesus in my house does not lessen my commitment to Him. I can't imagine thinking having these things would enhance my relationship with God.
quote:
so i take it you can't think of any scripture to back up your protests?
First we haven't seen any scripture supporting your position. Show me one scripture where we are to have holy images in our churches. I can think of one that goes against such things...
Exodus 20:4-6
quote:
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
20:6
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
So lets get this straight..I am not a "good" christian because I have no crosses in my house?
I wonder at those who do.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 11:54:14 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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i NEVER said that the physical symbol had to be present. actually kisstheson didn't say scripture required it either but rather wondered if the changing trend reflected a different perspective on the cross, and obviously favors the symbol being present.
no mention of biblical requirement anywhere.
we have largely been discussing perspective on the cross. that we should continue to appreciate and remember the cross in our lives has been refuted here. "promoting a guilt trip" etc. THAT kind of thinking is what i said is unbiblical.
quote:
The cross is a roman torture device.
Its like asking your church to have an electric chair in their sanctuary.
The work on the cross wasn't done by the cross...it was done by our Lord, the Christ, Jesus.
I celebrate the life, death and life of Christ Jesus, not the form of torture He endured to fulfil the prophecies and to be our Messiah. The pain suffered for us was not endured by the cross. The shed blood did not come from the cross. The attonement won did not come from the cross.
To me, to celebrate the cross is to celebrate the people who put Christ there and how our Lord died. The message isn't that Christ died.
He is alive!!! That...is the gospel.
I think many churches preach a dead Christ and celebrate it with a dead tortured Christ on a cross in their church. To me, that is very offensive.
My Lord is alive. Its what seperates Him from every other "prophet" or religious leader.
Its like cooking a great meal....throwing the food away....and sit there staring at the stove saying, " Boy that food sure is good ".
nno "he is alive" is not the gospel. the gospel is that He is alive AFTER suffering and dying on the cross for our sins.
the cross is our altar. our paid for, wholly adequate means of coming to God. that is biblical language. that is not talking about wood or symbols but of the work done by Christ on the cross, and to be remembered throughout our walk with Him.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:25:03 PM
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JesusFan
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quote:
I'm talking about Christians dissing the cross and the sufferings of Christ. not heathens. Why are christians not presenting the message of the cross in the gospel they preach?
A church can present the message of the cross without displaying an actual cross in their sanctuary. I think this would be infinitely better than a church with a great big cross up front that waters down the Gospel.
_____________________________
"God helps those who know they are helpless."
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:58:27 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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This is certainly an amazing thread with amazing responses. Stunning.
I see no value in a glossy cross made of precious metals or in one made of smooth, sanded wood. I agree with SonInMe1 who wrote: quote:
The cross is a roman torture device. As a decoration, it means nothing in worship.
The point of His life was that He demonstrated perfectly what we are to do. The point of His death was that He carried our utter imperfection to the grave. The point of his resurrection was that He arose victorious over both sin and the grave, securing for all believers for all time life in Him. The point of His continued life is that He remains victorious and awaits the day when we can also live victorious with Him.
A cross, as a single component, is a mere portion of the story.
Furthermore, we assume that He gave His life on a cross. I do not recall a Greek word in the Bible that calls it a cross. It may have been a mere stake. If I am wrong, please correct me. We could all go about with a stake on our lapels, but I am not sure that would relay a recognizable message. I have seen some with nails on their lapels; perhaps that is the better way of giving that message?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 1:29:54 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1099
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
This is certainly an amazing thread with amazing responses. Stunning.
I see no value in a glossy cross made of precious metals or in one made of smooth, sanded wood. I agree with SonInMe1 who wrote: quote:
The cross is a roman torture device. As a decoration, it means nothing in worship.
The point of His life was that He demonstrated perfectly what we are to do. The point of His death was that He carried our utter imperfection to the grave. The point of his resurrection was that He arose victorious over both sin and the grave, securing for all believers for all time life in Him. The point of His continued life is that He remains victorious and awaits the day when we can also live victorious with Him.
A cross, as a single component, is a mere portion of the story.
as an object the cross was a component of the story. but "the cross" in biblical language is central to the gospel. it was THE work of reconciliation.
really while the displayed object was a key in the OP, the larger issue, the one even the OP has discussed through the thread was the christian perspective of what Christ did on the cross, and whether or not we continue to remember it as um, crucial.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 1:38:40 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Yes, I read through the thread, but there is no reason to get worried about someone or a place of worship that does not display a cross. This is nothing, compared to the fact that far too many churched people have no idea what sin is or how serious it is. Many have no idea what most of the Bible says. Many have not so much as opened a Bible in weeks. Many do not have enough respect to simply dress modestly for attending a service. Many preachers would rather preach supposition than the Truth. Many preachers prefer a pedestal to a life of service.
And saddest of all, many churches wouldn't know the truth of the Bible if it fell upon them.
What would I prefer to have: a cross displayed in my place of worship or the Truth with integrity? I'll take the latter.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 1:49:54 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
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quote:
Yes, I read through the thread, but there is no reason to get worried about someone or a place of worship that does not display a cross. This is nothing, compared to the fact that far too many churched people have no idea what sin is or how serious it is. Many have no idea what most of the Bible says. Many have not so much as opened a Bible in weeks. Many do not have enough respect to simply dress modestly for attending a service. Many preachers would rather preach supposition than the Truth. Many preachers prefer a pedestal to a life of service.
And saddest of all, many churches wouldn't know the truth of the Bible if it fell upon them.
What would I prefer to have: a cross displayed in my place of worship or the Truth with integrity? I'll take the latter.
AWESOME post!
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 9/4/2008 2:02:20 PM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 1:59:30 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1099
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
This is nothing, compared to the fact that far too many churched people have no idea what sin is or how serious it is. Many have no idea what most of the Bible says. Many have not so much as opened a Bible in weeks. Many do not have enough respect to simply dress modestly for attending a service. Many preachers would rather preach supposition than the Truth. Many preachers prefer a pedestal to a life of service.
And saddest of all, many churches wouldn't know the truth of the Bible if it fell upon them.
actually, i got the impression that that was one of the points of the OP.
_____________________________
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 2:58:44 PM
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kisstheson
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This thread confirms the sadness I feel in my own heart.
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This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 4:40:35 PM
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musicboss11
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Thank you to several of you that reinforced my statement from several posts ago.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 12:39:27 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Is this thread about
"I'm holier than all y'all."
"I am sadder than all y'all."
"I'm more right than all y'all."
Or is it an exchange of thoughts from adult human beings who all love the same L-rd?
Good night! This thread is scaring me!
But, at least, I got to use my newly-acquired word three times!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 1:13:54 AM
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kisstheson
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Are you into messainic judaism. Is this why you hide the cross because you don't want jews to know what you really believe? paul said the cross is a stumbling block to the jews. Don't hide the cross. Put if right out in front so jews can see that Yeshua is your messiah. jews don't like to be duped into beleiving. The messainic synagogues I have gone to don't display the cross.
"What would I prefer to have: a cross displayed in my place of worship or the Truth with integrity? I'll take the latter. the cross."
I would prefer both...truth with integrity and the cross.
< Message edited by kisstheson -- 9/5/2008 3:03:32 AM >
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 1:26:02 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
Are you into messainic judaism. Is this why you hide the cross because you don't want jews to know what you really believe? paul said the cross is a stumbling block to the jews. Don't hide the cross. Put if right out in front so jews acn see that Yeshua is your messiah. jews don't like to be duped into beleiving. The messainic synagogues I have gone to don't display
"What would I prefer to have: a cross displayed in my place of worship or the Truth with integrity? I'll take the latter. the cross."
I would prefer both...truth with integrity and the cross.
This is a very offensive post. A very prejudiced post. Amazing.
Further, you mixed what I wrote with something I DID NOT write. That is either dishonest or an error on your part. Which is it?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 1:31:52 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
You know what? I'm done with this discussion. I hear enough of dissing of the cross from exchristians and atheists calling the cross a "guilt device" etc. but now I hear this from people who name the name of Christ?
This is most grievious and shocking. All you 'naysayers" can keep you crossless christ. And when christians have to fight over the useage of the cross and its importance I'm thinking we are truly in the last days.
I'll stick to Paul position. "I sought to know nothing among you but Christ and him crucified."
wow...
Further, you wrote, quote:
You know what? I'm done with this discussion. , but you came back within 6 minutes, then added three additional posts. ???
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 3:01:20 AM
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kisstheson
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I'm offended by Christians who can't see the significance of the cross. carry on. The whole dissing of Christ's cross makes me angry and then they say they honor Him? okay...
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 6:54:28 AM
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deliveredarling
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I think there is a major misunderstanding occuring in this thread.
People aren't dissing the "cross of Christ" as in the biblical usage. The aren't even dissing a cross as the object.
The idea that the cross as an object is what's causing the uproar. This is what people are DISMISSING as a form that holds any power.
The object vs the ideal.
It's ok for people to disagree on this. It's one of those essential things.
All who have participated know what Christ has done and believe it in their hearts. That is the most important part.
Whether the cross is hung, worn or whatever is just a secondary opinion that we don't all have to agree on.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 7:43:04 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
remember the cross in our lives has been refuted here.
What did the cross do?
The OT prophesizes that Christ would be hung on a tree...the cross was wood so I guess that counts for something.
Other than that there is NO value to the cross at all. The cross itself did nothing.
There was something attained on the cross by Christ, but the cross was nothing more than the instrument.
Its like blaiming the gun for people who murder. It ain't the gun's fault.
quote:
nno "he is alive" is not the gospel.
I beg to differ. It may not be the entire gospel or the preceding scriptures would be nothing, but it is huge.
quote:
AFTER suffering and dying on the cross for our sins.
I am eternally grateful my Lord would die like that to save someone like me...I just don't see what the cross had to do with it. It wasn't the cross's decision. The cross did not die for me. I see absolutley and without any doubt nothing worthwhile in having a cross displayed.
quote:
the cross is our altar. our paid for, wholly adequate means of coming to God.
truly...scary stuff.
quote:
that is biblical language.
Language you either do not understand or willfully pervert.
The.......cross........did..........nothing.....for ..............you.
Jesus did.
What the bible refers to was the work done on the cross. Not the cross literally.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 12:19:21 PM
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Focusing
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I am replying strictly to the OP, and haven't read through the other 90+ responses in this thread ...
While I do not believe it's appropriate to idolize something (which can be considered hanging a cross and praying to it, imo), if a church does not have a cross I don't want to attend it.
Why?
Simply because I feel it's a representation and reminder of what He went through for us. If I can't be reminded that He gave His life for me when I go to a church and am praising Him along with many other believers, there is something missing.
My favorite way to be in touch with Him is in nature ... nature screams God to me, pure and simple ... but if I am going somewhere, a building, a community event in the form of a church service, I feel it's important to have that as a visual reminder, something that triggers my mind and puts me in a place of complete humility. As a visually-oriented person, this is something that's important to me. I'm not sure it's the same for everyone else.
_____________________________
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 12:34:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
But, at least, I got to use my newly-acquired word three times!
Have you become a Southern Bell? 
If not, you have the southern charm down pat!
Hee-hee-hee! I haven't used it in real-life speech yet, but it certainly would shock my children and others who know me, way up here in the far-northern Northwest!
But there's something purifying about using it, y'all! I think I've gotten in touch with my roots!
But back to the cross --
I am curious: do those of you who use crosses use simple crosses or crucifixes?
Not long ago, someone on CW mentioned a young woman s/he heard buying jewelry, and the young woman asked for something like "one of those crosses with the little man pinned on it." Many who use crosses have no clue what they mean. Having a cross does not make one holier.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 9/5/2008 12:42:21 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 12:35:40 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1099
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
remember the cross in our lives has been refuted here.
What did the cross do?
The OT prophesizes that Christ would be hung on a tree...the cross was wood so I guess that counts for something.
Other than that there is NO value to the cross at all. The cross itself did nothing.
There was something attained on the cross by Christ, but the cross was nothing more than the instrument.
Its like blaiming the gun for people who murder. It ain't the gun's fault.
quote:
no "he is alive" is not the gospel.
I beg to differ. It may not be the entire gospel or the preceding scriptures would be nothing, but it is huge.
quote:
AFTER suffering and dying on the cross for our sins.
I am eternally grateful my Lord would die like that to save someone like me...I just don't see what the cross had to do with it. It wasn't the cross's decision. The cross did not die for me. I see absolutely and without any doubt nothing worthwhile in having a cross displayed.
quote:
the cross is our altar. our paid for, wholly adequate means of coming to God.
truly...scary stuff.
quote:
that is biblical language.
Language you either do not understand or willfully pervert.
The.......cross........did..........nothing.....for ..............you.
Jesus did.
What the bible refers to was the work done on the cross. Not the cross literally.
soninme, seriously why did you reply to my post as if i was talking about the cross as an object rather than what Christ did on the cross? i have mead it clear in nearly every post that the object was not what i was talking about including one post in direct response to you here:
quote:
the phrase, "work of the cross" has been around along time and it simply means the work of Christ on the cross" did you really think we were talking about the actual wood as being special or working some kind of spiritual act?
further, the phrase "the cross" is found throughout the new testament. Sometimes as the "cross of Christ" but not always.
here we find both:
1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
as kisstheson said, it is not about guilt but gratitude. it is also about doctrine. the cross is central in new testament doctrine. it is mentioned with great importance all through the epistles.
please demonstrate from scripture that once we are saved the cross is no longer something to think about or remember.
are you purposely twisting my posts? why do you speak to me as though i am perverting the bible and speaking of wood when i clearly am discussing the work of Jesus?
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 8:28:08 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
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quote:
soninme, seriously why did you reply to my post as if i was talking about the cross as an object rather than what Christ did on the cross?
Because that is how you represented your thoughts.
Its what I have gotten from this thread...that we need a cross to remember what Jesus did for us.
I don't. I don't understand needing a representation of a roman torture device to remember what Jesus went through or why He went through it.
Everyday in this world I am reminded of who Christ is and what He did for me and how He has changed...or is changing my life. Every hour, if not every second, the wisdom of Christ, the bible, and my relationship with Him is evident, one way or the other. I don't need to have reminders...I live it in every breath I take wether that be in success or failure, Christ is on my mind 24/7....
and when He is not, I fail. Life is that simple.
With the Holy Spirit...who needs reminders?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/5/2008 8:37:36 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1099
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
soninme, seriously why did you reply to my post as if i was talking about the cross as an object rather than what Christ did on the cross?
Because that is how you represented your thoughts.
actually i was quite clear, you misread and misquoted my words.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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