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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 5:19:25 PM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
quote:
Great article. I especially hooked onto this
He explains that he probably would have remained apart from any faith, “had it not been for the particular attributes of the historically black church, attributes that helped me shed some of my skepticism and embrace the Christian faith.”
I don't see why this is condemning of his faith. I have been to many churches. One I attended is particularly focused on winning the souls of young adults, as is reflected in its music, the jeans the pastors wear, the language used in sermons, the pop culture references, etc. Because they try to meet people where they are, many skeptics have come to Christ.
Think about your church. I don't know what attributes draw you in, but if you really think about it, you are probably drawn to it because it speaks to your culture, how you are built. If you think of the church you attended when you received Christ, was there anything about it that made you feel closer to the Lord? I believe He loves us so much, He will put circumstances in place to meet us where we are.
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And this
“I am not willing to have the state deny American citizens a civil union that confers equivalent rights on such basic matters as hospital visitation or health insurance coverage simply because the people they love are of the same sex—nor am I willing to accept a reading of the Bible that considers an obscure line in Romans to be more defining of Christianity than the Sermon on the Mount.”
The writer of this conservative blog followed up Obama's statement with this:
It is clear that Obama uses his own human criteria for what he will believe and what he won’t believe. This is unacceptable to Evangelicals. The Word of God instructs us; we do not instruct it. We conform to God’s Word; God’s Word does not conform to us.
We all use our own human criteria for what we will believe or we won't believe. It is just that some of us - and I include myself in this at times - will not question anything that goes outside of what we have been taught through our own traditions and cultural values. We insist that the way that we interpret scripture is the only way, and we have no room for divergent thought.
What I read here is that Obama believes that the passage in Romans (clearly, not obscurely, in my opinion) condemning homosexuality does not negate the totality of the Sermon on the Mount, which he thinks addresses the rights of gays and, just in general, where Christ hopes we will focus our energies. Whether or not we agree with him on all that - and I DON'T - it's his interpretation. And I guess what I am saying is that I would rather vote for someone who struggles with and thinks through faith issues, than someone who does whatever he wants, lives however he wants, and then follows the party line to get elected.
It pains me to say these things, because I am so very against homosexuality not being seen as the sin it is. But at the same time, I believe there is room in God's house for people to differ on issues and still be His children. I just don't think God is going to send Barack Obama to hell for not denying gays health insurance.
From what we know about his background, that he grew up with such divergent religious and social viewpoints, it is a MIRACLE that he found Jesus. And he's struggling. It's a journey, and I don't begrudge him it.
We all pick and choose scripture - that is why we have denominations, where people who all believe a certain way go to feel affirmed in their faith journeys.
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And especially this
“I thought of Sasha, asking me once what happened when we die— ‘I don’t want to die, Daddy,” she had added matter-of-factly—and I hugged her and said, ‘You’ve got a long way to go before you have to worry about that,’ which seemed to satisfy her. I wondered whether I should have told her the truth, that I wasn’t sure what happens when we die, any more than I was sure where the soul resides or what existed before the Big Bang.”
Thank you for posting this. Its even more of an eye-opener than what i already knew.
I think it takes a whole lot of guts for a Christian to admit that he hasn't figured out everything. Sometimes, these thoughts cross my mind: Because I believe in eternal security, I know I will be with Jesus, but what happens when I die? Where do I go, exactly? I'm saying this out loud and God knows my heart, and now so do you. Where is my mother's soul right now? Is she asleep waiting to be raised from the grave, or is she up there with Jesus looking down on me? I don't know exactly what Obama means by what he's stated above for him, but I know what it speaks to for me.
One of my strongest Christian friends, who loves the Lord dearly with all her heart, and lives by His Word in her daily life, believes there is room for evolution in the creation story. When she first mentioned this to me, I wanted to duck out of the way so I wouldn't get hit by the lightning that was about to strike her down. She simply believes that God made the Big Bang happen. I don't agree, but I don't condemn her as not being a Christian.
We all have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
I still do not have the answer to this question: why are some people on this thread willing to cast a vote for John McCain, who does not show the fruits of a growing faith, rather than for Barack Obama, who actually thinks through his faith, and has fruit to show for it?
I dont know whats worse...knowing his comments and supporting them or knowing his comments and making excuses for them...
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 6:07:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
One of my strongest Christian friends, who loves the Lord dearly with all her heart, and lives by His Word in her daily life, believes there is room for evolution in the creation story.
How can one live by His word and deny is at the same time? Since there is no room for evolution in creation. Evolution denies man is made in the image of God, and that's not a small item. Not to mention the denial of creation cannot escape the fact that one is calling God a liar...
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I still do not have the answer to this question: why are some people on this thread willing to cast a vote for John McCain, who does not show the fruits of a growing faith, rather than for Barack Obama, who actually thinks through his faith, and has fruit to show for it?
How is Mr.Obama dealing with his support for abortion and the homosexual agenda in regards to his "faith"? How does one repent of something they believe in? Not to mention something they support from a position of authority ordained by God to deal with evil, not sanction it? What possible thought process can allow one to skip over pages and pages of scripture and somehow still manage to maintain a true faith?
For the record I not willing to cast a vote to John McCain...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 6:14:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
This is what can't stand.. We Christians love to sit in our armchairs and judge other people, while ignoring whatever is going on in our lives..
For instance?
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I wish you guys could see how we come off as such hypocrites! My non-Christian friends keep harping on this fact, and it is difficult to respond to them, because so many Christians are like this..
What "Christians" are you speaking of?
As for your friends... What do you expect those who deny God to see in His people? Good? I suspect they believe they should see spineless people who have no convictions that cower to whatever they believe Christians should be like... Putting too much stock in the what the world sees is part of the problem, since that generally leads to appeasement to the world at the expense of what is right in the sight of God...
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We really need to clean up our own houses before we start judging others!
Actually to clean "our house" judgment is required... 1 Corinthians 5...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 6:15:15 PM
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Thessa
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I dont think theres anything wrong at all in trying to figure out if some people are TRUE Christians or not. Because some profess to be that arent. In the last days we as Christians will have to figure out who is real and whos not. Having an opinion on the actions and comments of someone in society or otherwise can only be a good thing, so we are not to be falsely led.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 6:17:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
My prayer is that Obama, McCain, et al will find their hope in Christ, and I will leave it at that. What's between a man and his God is between a man and his God, and does not involve anyone else.
Wrong... When one claims to be of the body they are subject to the body... It's disingenuous to say that what goes on in the Body of Christ is between each member and God alone. That's a denial of the body to a large degree and the fact that God has instructed the Body to deal with folks who have issues and refuse to deal with them.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 6:41:29 PM
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dinomax55
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So you're saying this is all about church discipline? Puh-lease! Are you serious? So you have the authority to cast him out of the assembly now? I hope at least you confronted him directly, and brought a witness as well! Ha!
Church discipline is the only time we have the authority to judge, folks..
This is what I'm talking about. This smug condescension that some of us believers have picked up, always seems to come out when dealing with people we don't agree with..
Bottom line? We don't know McCain's or Obama's faith enough to have this conversation. It's just a waste of time.
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 7:08:27 PM
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wing2000
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quote:
We all use our own human criteria for what we will believe or we won't believe. It is just that some of us - and I include myself in this at times - will not question anything that goes outside of what we have been taught through our own traditions and cultural values. We insist that the way that we interpret scripture is the only way, and we have no room for divergent thought.
well said...
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 7:24:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
So you're saying this is all about church discipline?
That and the fact that when ones claims Christ they are subject to the body to some degree...
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Puh-lease! Are you serious? So you have the authority to cast him out of the assembly now?
I never said or implied such a thing... So are you being serious are trying to fan the flames?
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I hope at least you confronted him directly, and brought a witness as well! Ha!
If I ever met the man I would and as for a witness his voting record and public statements would amount to witness against himself. Or would it be more loving to support him in his sinful ways with either votes or silence... Is that love?
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Church discipline is the only time we have the authority to judge, folks..
In order to know and avoid what is wrong one must judge daily... I judge abortion and homosexuality to be wrong in the sight of God and see no justification for a believer to support such things... You agree? If not by all means make a case for supporting such things.
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This is what I'm talking about. This smug condescension that some of us believers have picked up, always seems to come out when dealing with people we don't agree with..
Should I agree with Mr. Obama on his stance of abortion and homosexuality? Or should I cower because you mentioned smug condescension and not judge right from wrong?
Should I agree with the half dozen or so pedophiles who live around here who think it's ok to rape children since heaven forbid I should be against a man man who thinks it ok to murder them? And does so while proclaiming Christ...
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Bottom line? We don't know McCain's or Obama's faith enough to have this conversation. It's just a waste of time.
Yet you know enough of the faith of some unnamed Christians who are said to be smug and hypocrites? Do you know these people personally that you have spoken of?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 9:25:40 PM
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dinomax55
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That's just my point. I'm not judging your faith! I'm saying you are coming off as smug and condescending. We cannot have a discussion about your faith anymore than you can have a discussion on a candidate's faith. You don't know the person on an intimate level, and since you don't, you are not qualified to say, "he or she is not a believer".
Because this person has different 'opinions' regarding political matters from you, you can say that he isn't a believer, that he is lying? Is a political opinion a necessity for entry into the Kingdom of God? When I accepted Christ, I wasn't given a Republican or Democratic ID card. Our faith should be above politics.
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 9:48:52 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
When I accepted Christ, I wasn't given a Republican or Democratic ID card.
You sure? Cause there are alot of folks that I think believe it is issued to all new believers along with their KJV right after they are baptized..... Bless their Hearts!
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:00:24 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
When I accepted Christ, I wasn't given a Republican or Democratic ID card.
You sure? Cause there are alot of folks that I think believe it is issued to all new believers along with their KJV right after they are baptized..... Bless their Hearts!
RC , you are funny! They don't read the KJV, they read the paraphraised Bible.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I always thought Re-publicans was just Re peat of these people.
The Publicans.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:02:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dinomax55
That's just my point. I'm not judging your faith! I'm saying you are coming off as smug and condescending.
Quite a dilemma you have there...
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We cannot have a discussion about your faith anymore than you can have a discussion on a candidate's faith.
Too late... You already crossed the line, but that's ok... I believe you have every right to judge me... Though I don't believe you have made a righteous judgment...
Of course I come off smug, you believe things like abortion and sexual perversion(homosexuality) are simply "different 'opinions' regarding political matters" and not sinful...
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You don't know the person on an intimate level, and since you don't, you are not qualified to say, "he or she is not a believer".
According to what? Other than your opinion? How close do I have to be to Mr. Obama top understand that his actions don't measure up to his claim of Christ... I have never ran across a verse that speak of being able to repent of something you support vigorously... How does that work... How does one support fornication and repent of it knowing that the next day they will continue to support it?
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Because this person has different 'opinions' regarding political matters from you, you can say that he isn't a believer, that he is lying?
When someone says they believe in Christ and in the next breath speak of murdering the unborn and that homosexuality isn't a choice or that homosexuality is no more immoral than heterosexuality. I say they are a liar...
Btw... Those are quotes from Mr. Obama...
We are not talking about different 'opinions' regarding political matters... The belief that it's ok to murder the unborn isn't simply a difference of opinion and or political matter... Nor is sexual perversion... Especially if the person supporting those view(from a position of God ordained) authority is claiming to be a following of Christ...
I am puzzled that your non-Christian friends don't keep harping on this fact... Oh wait, they believe the same as Mr. Obama why should they... Er... That should tip them off that something is wrong, right?
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Is a political opinion a necessity for entry into the Kingdom of God?
Certainly not... Yet the bible is clear on who will not enter the Kingdom... Liars, murderers, fornicators...
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When I accepted Christ, I wasn't given a Republican or Democratic ID card.
When one accepts Christ is would seem to entail an acceptance of His law... In regards to that can you make a case that Mr. Obama's actions are in line with God's law? For instance, regarding abortion? How about his claim that sexual perversion isn't a choice? Or that homosexuality is no more immoral than heterosexuality? Which means that what God ordained to be right, heterosexuality is the same as what God claims to be an abomination... How does that worK? I have seen people post that the man is brilliant yet my child understands that heterosexuality is right in the eyes of God and homosexuality isn't...
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Our faith should be above politics.
From what has been posted politics are far above anything to do with faith and outside of the jurisdiction of God's law... There seems to be prevalent view that no consequences can ever stem for voting for whatever...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:03:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
When I accepted Christ, I wasn't given a Republican or Democratic ID card.
You sure? Cause there are alot of folks that I think believe it is issued to all new believers along with their KJV right after they are baptized..... Bless their Hearts!
RC , you are funny! They don't read the KJV, they read the paraphraised Bible.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I always thought Re-publicans was just Re peat of these people.
The Publicans.
Tax collectors? Cute...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:04:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
When I accepted Christ, I wasn't given a Republican or Democratic ID card.
You sure? Cause there are alot of folks that I think believe it is issued to all new believers along with their KJV right after they are baptized..... Bless their Hearts!
For the record I don't... My stand on these matters has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:06:47 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
When one accepts Christ is would seem to entail an acceptance of His law
Man, I thought when one accepts Christ he/she was REDEEMED or SET FREE from the CURSE of the Law? I'm sure I read that somewhere..oh yes it must have been on Some "Liberal" Media web site huh? LOL!!
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:09:58 PM
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rcamejo01
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you see the tru dilemma here is trying to Live by every letter of something that GOD has done away with according to Scripture..you cannot have Grace and Law together, kinda like....oil and water...ahh never mind.
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:20:05 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
you see the tru dilemma here is trying to Live by every letter of something that GOD has done away with according to Scripture..you cannot have Grace and Law together, kinda like....oil and water...ahh never mind.
referrence??
Matthew 5:18 quotes Jesus as saying, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."
I don't think heaven and earth has passed away yet.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:21:12 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
Matthew 5:18 quotes Jesus as saying, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."
I don't think heaven and earth has passed away yet.
So, what exactly do you suppose I do with the book of Galatians? Tear it out?
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:29:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
When one accepts Christ is would seem to entail an acceptance of His law
Man, I thought when one accepts Christ he/she was REDEEMED or SET FREE from the CURSE of the Law? I'm sure I read that somewhere..oh yes it must have been on Some "Liberal" Media web site huh? LOL!!
Yes the "curse" of the law... Not the law itself. Unless of course you believe it's ok to steal, honor other gods, murder, lie, and whatever else God declares sinful... You really believe the law doesn't apply to believers in that we should strive to obey God's word for the sake of His name and His Kingdom and our well being?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:33:30 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
Yes the "curse" of the law... Not the law itself. Unless of course you believe it's ok to steal, honor other gods, murder, lie, and whatever else God declares sinful... You really believe the law doesn't apply to believers in that we should strive to obey God's word for the sake of His name and His Kingdom and our well being?
Paul did teach that the Law was a tutor. NO body but Christ could ever keep the law, break it at one point and you brke it all, correct, how are we supposed to as Christians expect to folow christ by trying to keep something that the Jews themselves were never able to keep. Isn't that why Christ became our "passover" Lamb?
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:34:45 PM
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rcamejo01
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also, wasn't that what the argument was about in Acts 15?
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:44:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
Paul did teach that the Law was a tutor.
That's my point...
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NO body but Christ could ever keep the law,
Never in question...
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break it at one point and you brke it all, correct,
Yup....
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how are we supposed to as Christians expect to folow christ by trying to keep something that the Jews themselves were never able to keep.
I am not advocating law keeping for the sake attempting to make oneself righteous...
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
What does that mean?
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Isn't that why Christ became our "passover" Lamb?
To allow us to break His law without consequence? Are you making a case that sin brings about grace?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:47:37 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
To allow us to break His law without consequence? Are you making a case that sin brings about grace?
Oh Snap! I forgot you subscribe to Calvin's teaching..Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with that....AGAIN I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong with that, but we really shouldn't have That argument..pointless.. Moving on now...
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:56:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
also, wasn't that what the argument was about in Acts 15?
It depends on what you wish to deem to be the argument... The idea that being circumcised and obeying the law of Moses is the way to heaven? Of course that's not the answer... Did Peter respond that ignoring what God commands was the answer? No...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 10:57:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
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To allow us to break His law without consequence? Are you making a case that sin brings about grace?
Oh Snap! I forgot you subscribe to Calvin's teaching..Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with that....AGAIN I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong with that, but we really shouldn't have That argument..pointless.. Moving on now...
That was quick...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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