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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 10:34:46 AM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
Which of course begs the question, why are you posting in this thread? Since the subject is after all, "Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian?"
I felt I responded with in the subject, my response was who cares.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 10:36:38 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy
That makes him a liar, then. Quoted making a profound statement that homosexuality is NOT immoral, and then later claiming that he "personally" believes it's between man and woman.
I think the problem is that the religious right has a different definition of homosexuality than mainline protestants or the general public. Most of us define homosexuality as being "gay"- a state of being, rather than a set of actions one engages in.
The Bible teaches us that sin is either a physical action or an action of the heart. So Obama is being consistent here.
quote:
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Oh really?
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Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Cor. 6:9-11
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Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:7-9
I think it's clear that God's grace and love is available to everyone. Yes, when you become a Christian, your actions change. However, the notion "love the sinner; hate the sin" is well-supported by the New Testament approach that God takes to relations with us heathen gentiles. The fact that God's love is offered to all is also generally considered a core tenet of Protestant (and, IIRC, Catholic) Christianity.
Let's take a look at another verse, one that many theologians use as the basic starting point for understanding Christ's purpose here on earth:
quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (Jesus speaking to Nicodemus)
Finally, one more verse:
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But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Peter 2:1
This verse is only to illustrate that it's important that we get the core doctrine about God (and who he came to save) right. I am sure that many more verses will come out in this discussion, and I'm also sure that you're trying to interpret the Bible in good faith. As an intellectual, I respect your right to disagree and am having fun with this discussion, but as a Christian, I am also hoping that you are being very careful if you are specifically instructing others in views that contradict Church teachings on the core theology. If we get something seriously wrong, here, and then teach that to others, it could be a destructive stumbling block to others' faith(Romans 14:13).
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 9/2/2008 11:04:05 AM >
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 11:28:53 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
Now, I don't think Jesus went around trying to condemn gay people.
He didn't have to, by their actions they condemn themselves...
quote:
He hated the sin, not the people.
Not quite...
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
...
It amaze me how some Christians know how to use scripture to support their view but destroy the entire teaching of scripture.
Do you know the “ life of Jesus” ? He was friend of sinner, he came for sinner, he died for sinner, he rescued the sinner.
If Christ was here today, he would not condemn the homosexual but say
“ Come to me , I will give you eternal life”
What about... "Go and SIN no more..."
Christ isn't here today and when He returns He isn't going to be friends with unrepentant sinners, He's going to judge them...
That is scripture...
Talking about what Christ would do today if here means nothing since the what Jesus would do if on earth today hypothetical scenario seems to overlook the fact that judgment is coming.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 11:34:43 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
He's about as much Christian as the other 92% that claim it here in America.
What hat are you pulling that out of?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 11:39:10 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
We already know he is in favor of abortion, although God forbids murder
Not abortion..but Choice.
The man supports the murder of 3500 unborn children daily... A claim of supporting only the choice for others may suffice in the secular realm but it will not hold up to the light of God's word...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 11:40:03 AM
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P31W
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Is James Cones Black Liberation Theology the Christian theology?
Of course not.
Because Obama ascribes to "that" theology and allowed his children to be baptised under "that" theology I would have to say that Obama's faith is not true Christanity.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 11:46:40 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The man supports the murder of 3500 unborn children daily... A claim of supporting only the choice for others may suffice in the secular realm but it will not hold up to the light of God's word...
Does this make McCain a sinner for not supporting the abolition of all other religions besides Christianity?
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 11:54:57 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think the problem is that the religious right has a different definition of homosexuality than mainline protestants or the general public. Most of us define homosexuality as being "gay"- a state of being, rather than a set of actions one engages in.
The Bible teaches us that sin is either a physical action or an action of the heart. So Obama is being consistent here.
The bible is quite clear that the actions of one who engages in homosexuality is in complete rebellion against God, unless of course you believe that homosexuals just sit and around and don't act out according to their desires...
quote:
Oh really?
Yes...
quote:
However, the notion "love the sinner; hate the sin" is well-supported by the New Testament approach that God takes to relations with us heathen gentiles.
If the notion is saved sinners, yes... But that doesn't account for all sinners since not all are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
quote:
This verse is only to illustrate that it's important that we get the core doctrine about God (and who he came to save) right. I am sure that many more verses will come out in this discussion, and I'm also sure that you're trying to interpret the Bible in good faith. As an intellectual, I respect your right to disagree and am having fun with this discussion, but as a Christian, I am also hoping that you are being very careful if you are specifically instructing others in views that contradict Church teachings on the core theology. If we get something seriously wrong, here, and then teach that to others, it could be a destructive stumbling block to others' faith(Romans 14:13).
How many masters is one to have?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 12:05:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Does this make McCain a sinner for not supporting the abolition of all other religions besides Christianity?
First, whatever Mr. McCain is guilty of doesn't remove what Mr. Obama is guilty of... Second... In order for there to be a more direct comparison you would have to have Mr. McCain actively supporting false religions...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 12:22:36 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The bible is quite clear that the actions of one who engages in homosexuality is in complete rebellion against God.
Keywords highlighted in bold. Embellishments highlighted in italics. I do not see the Bible calling for the embellishments you added. It mentions homosexuality in four different verses, one of which is the case where we translate the greek word for "male prostitute" as "homosexual" (interesting translation!) Although the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination, it does so along with various violations of other Levitical purity codes.
quote:
If the notion is saved sinners, yes... But that doesn't account for all sinners since not all are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Paul clearly states (I even highlighted it in bold for you) that God loved everyone before they were even Christians.
quote:
How many masters is one to have?
Exactly one, and that master teaches us to live and let live (Mark 9:38-40) and that God provides all the help people need to those who seek understanding (Matt. 7:7).
My application of these teachings is that I respect your right to understand the Bible as you see fit, but I am going to call you out if you are providing instruction in the church that contradicts the Bible. Teachings that contradict core Biblically-supported church doctrine need to be addressed (Luke 17:1-4), because this affects all Christians, not just you.
I noticed that you have not addressed my other point. Do you believe that salvation is offered to all (even if it comes on God's terms)? If so, how do you explain the whole "while we were yet sinners" part of Romans 5:8? Or John 3:16 in light of your view that God hates people (rather than sin)?
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 9/2/2008 12:50:14 PM >
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 12:27:52 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
First, whatever Mr. McCain is guilty of doesn't remove what Mr. Obama is guilty of... Second... In order for there to be a more direct comparison you would have to have Mr. McCain actively supporting false religions...
So you believe that us humans should overturn the constitution and make anything that promulgates sin or separates people from God illegal?
I believe that if any politician who is pro-choice supports abortion, then any politician who is pro-Constitution must be pro-Atheism.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 1:41:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I do not see the Bible calling for the embellishments you added. It mentions homosexuality in four different verses, one of which is the case where we translate the greek word for "male prostitute" as "homosexual" (interesting translation!) Although the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination, it does so along with various violations of other Levitical purity codes.
Homosexuality=Fornication... Case closed... You can jump around till you pass out but cannot make what clearly is a sin something other than...
You either believe homosexuality is sinful or not... There is no middle ground...
quote:
Paul clearly states (I even highlighted it in bold for you) that God loved everyone before they were even Christians.
Paul wasn't speaking of everyone... Since everyone isn't saved... You need to dig up some other verses since both you presented spoke of people who are saved, not simply everyone.
quote:
Exactly one, and that master teaches us to live and let live (Mark 9:38-40) and that God provides all the help people need to those who seek understanding (Matt. 7:7).
Ok... You speak of yourself as if you are two people in one, a Christian and an intellectual... And when you hit a road block with God's word out comes the secular argument...
quote:
My application of these teachings is that I respect your right to understand the Bible as you see fit, but I am going to call you out if you are providing instruction in the church that contradicts the Bible. Teachings that contradict core Biblically-supported church doctrine need to be addressed (Luke 17:1-4), because this affects all Christians, not just you.
By all means call me out and I will remind you that you couldn't discern the difference between being drunk and having a drink and the fact you doubted that Christ turned water into wine... Not to mention the fact you seem to making a case that the bible doesn't declare homosexuality to be a sin...
quote:
I noticed that you have not addressed my other point. Do you believe that salvation is offered to all (even if it comes on God's terms)? If so, how do you explain the whole "while we were yet sinners" part of Romans 5:8? Or John 3:16 in light of your view that God hates people (rather than sin)?
While "WE" were sinners.... Who is we? Those God elected before the foundation of the world... Paul wasn't speaking of mankind in the verse.
How is the following my view of what God hates?
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 9/2/2008 2:07:19 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 1:45:45 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
Those God elected before the foundation of the world... Paul was speaking of mankind in the verse.
Are we exuming Old Man Calvin here?
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 1:47:17 PM
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tafkam
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Since nobody seems to be able to answer, I'll ask again (just to stir the puddin...  )
The Bible says we will know them by their fruits. Can you name a single fruit in Obama's life that indicates he is a Christian?
We already know he is in favor of abortion, although God forbids murder.
He sanctions homosexual behavior, even thogh God calls it an abomination.
He is on video openly mocking the word of God in a speech, which tells us how much of an authority he considers Scripture to be.
He has been a member of a church that preaches hate and bigotry, and has been a member of that church for 20 years.
So where's the fruit?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 1:50:23 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
He is on video openly mocking the word of God in a speech, which tells us how much of an authority he considers Scripture to be.
Bro, when exactly did he "openly Mock" the scriptures?
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 2:09:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
Those God elected before the foundation of the world... Paul was speaking of mankind in the verse.
Are we exuming Old Man Calvin here?
Nope, just scripture...
Btw... That should be Paul wasn't speaking of mankind in the verse... My bad....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 2:12:04 PM
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rcamejo01
Posts: 309
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:
Nope, just scripture...
Yeah bro and I know this isn't the forum for this but that's one of those areas where scripture isn't clear on either view.
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 3:20:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
Nope, just scripture...
Yeah bro and I know this isn't the forum for this but that's one of those areas where scripture isn't clear on either view.
Worse, from what I reading in this thread it would appear the word of God isn't clear on the sin or murder and sexual perversion...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 3:22:19 PM
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rcamejo01
Posts: 309
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quote:
Worse, from what I reading in this thread it would appear the word of God isn't clear on the sin or murder and sexual perversion...
LOL!
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 3:31:40 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 398
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
Would a true Christian carry a Hindu god charm in their pocket?
I'm curious-where did this rumor start and even if true, how does that relate to his Christianity? I was given a gift by a Catholic friend-a medal that I carry around. I do not agree with the significance that my Catholic friend places upon this symbol but I carry it proudly because she gave it to me and I realize that it holds significance to her. Carrying it does not compromise my "witness" in any way, more than anything, it enhances it as I have the chance often to discuss how I received the medal and the story behind it can offer an opportunity to share the gospel. Accepting and carrying her gift is a lot more loving (as best I can tell) than doing the opposite-and it does not change my religion as a result.
If it did, I guess I'm doomed because I once even visited (gasp) a Hindu temple, again on the invitation of a friend (Hey, I'd been bringing him to my church, he wanted me to go see his(so to speak, he followed Hindu traditions but was more agnostic than anything). More than anything, it again provided an opportunity to share the differences between his false religion and the Gospel.). There's no way to reach the lost if we cloister ourselves away in ivory towers-if Mr. Obama did receive the charm as a gift and displays it as such, I've got to admit that in my opinion, it would be a pretty small mind that would condemn him for it-love-TRUE love-the type of love that Jesus showed-meets the sinner where they are and brings them up.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 3:35:43 PM
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rcamejo01
Posts: 309
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:
it would be a pretty small mind that would condemn him for it-love-TRUE love-the type of love that Jesus showed-meets the sinner where they are and brings them up.
IM with ya on this Blue, folks forget the kinda crowd Jesus would be "seen" with if he were here walking among us today. I doubt he's be hanging out at the Pastors council.....
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 4:33:29 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Homosexuality=Fornication... Case closed... You can jump around till you pass out but cannot make what clearly is a sin something other than...
You either believe homosexuality is sinful or not... There is no middle ground...
The way Obama used it, "Homosexuality" does not describe a set of actions, thus it is not sinful, since sin by its very nature constitutes a physical action or an action of the heart.
quote:
Paul wasn't speaking of everyone... Since everyone isn't saved... You need to dig up some other verses since both you presented spoke of people who are saved, not simply everyone...
While "WE" were sinners.... Who is we? Those God elected before the foundation of the world... Paul wasn't speaking of mankind in the verse.
Well, even if you're right, and Calvin sits at the left hand of the father, we really don't know who is destined to be saved. So for all human purposes, everyone is loved by God. You still also haven't addressed John 3:16.
quote:
Ok... You speak of yourself as if you are two people in one, a Christian and an intellectual... And when you hit a road block with God's word out comes the secular argument...
God is an intellectual, as well. (Why do we have Ecclesiastes?) It's sort of like asking people why they care about finance if their job is to be an accountant. Neither Christianity nor reason are contradictory, since both lead to truth.
quote:
By all means call me out and I will remind you that you couldn't discern the difference between being drunk and having a drink and the fact you doubted that Christ turned water into wine... Not to mention the fact you seem to making a case that the bible doesn't declare homosexuality to be a sin...
And someone else can't discern the use of fascetiousness to convey a point (that there are Biblical verses that are negative towards alcohol, but not a single verse that mentions anything close to abortion.)
"Homosexuality" as Obama used the term- (being gay) is not a sin. Sex outside of biblical marriage is a sin. Obama has neither suggested that our understanding of marriage should be altered nor that sex outside of marriage is acceptable.
How is the following my view of what God hates?
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 5:09:09 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2070
Joined: 9/23/2005
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As I rather suspected it would....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/2/2008 5:36:10 PM
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HannahElizabeth
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Since nobody seems to be able to answer, I'll ask again (just to stir the puddin... )
The Bible says we will know them by their fruits. Can you name a single fruit in Obama's life that indicates he is a Christian?
We already know he is in favor of abortion, although God forbids murder.
He sanctions homosexual behavior, even thogh God calls it an abomination.
He is on video openly mocking the word of God in a speech, which tells us how much of an authority he considers Scripture to be.
He has been a member of a church that preaches hate and bigotry, and has been a member of that church for 20 years.
So where's the fruit?
Right here:
Obama's response to Rick Warren's question as to what Christianity means to him:
"As a starting point, it means I believe in – that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I am redeemed through him. That is a source of strength and sustenance on a daily basis."
And he realizes that faith needs to be put into action, a viewpoint that began in his college years. This is straight from Obama's website, easily accessible to anyone:
"Remembering the values of empathy and service that his mother taught him, Barack put law school and corporate life on hold after college and moved to Chicago in 1985, where he became a community organizer with a church-based group seeking to improve living conditions in poor neighborhoods plagued with crime and high unemployment."
And this is from one of his speeches:
"You know, faith based groups like East Side Community Ministry carry a particular meaning for me. Because in a way, they're what led me into public service. It was a Catholic group called The Campaign for Human Development that helped fund the work I did many years ago in Chicago to help lift up neighborhoods that were devastated by the closure of a local steel plant.
"Now, I didn't grow up in a particularly religious household. But my experience in Chicago showed me how faith and values could be an anchor in my life. And in time, I came to see my faith as being both a personal commitment to Christ and a commitment to my community; that while I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work."
What led McCain into public service?
Obama mobilized his campaign to bring people together to pray for him: http://www.newsweek.com/id/139438
Does McCain infuse prayer into any aspect of his campaign?
Stop judging this man over two issues. As far as we know, he is not a homosexual, and he hasn't aborted a child. John McCain, however, is an adulterer who cannot even articulate how he became a Christian. And I don't want him making big decisions for me.
Because, I'm not real impressed by this, from an article in the 'Christian Science Monitor':
McCain says he is not "born again" and has not been baptized. He says he is "just a Christian," who for many years has been attending the North Phoenix Baptist Church in Arizona with his family. He was raised in the Episcopal Church and attended Episcopal High School, an elite boarding school in Alexandria, Va., where he was required to attend chapel every morning and church on Sunday. At the US Naval Academy, church attendance was also required.
"So I certainly was exposed!" he says, chuckling.
Hardy har har.
< Message edited by HannahElizabeth -- 9/2/2008 5:43:24 PM >
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