Why I fear Obama (Full Version)

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Evangel70 -> Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 1:26:45 PM)

Many have posted that they plan on "holding their nose" and voting for McCain simply because he's not Obama which begs the question, "why not Obama"?

Using Obama's own words (i.e. not an email you received, not what you heard from Hannity, Rush, or O'Reilly -- or even Rev. Wright) why you would fear his policies and prefer McCain's.

For example, if you only vote for pro-life candidates, it's fair to say you would not vote for Obama because he's pro-choice. He has stated this.

If you make more the $250K a year and believe Obama will raise your taxes, that is a legitimate fear since Obama has stated that if you make more thahn $250K a year, you will see a bump in your taxes.

If you are a business owner and believe that McCain will be true to his word and lower your business tax rate from 35% to 25% and believe that Obama will leave the business tax rate the same, your best bet would be to vote for McCain.

Remember to ONLY use claims that Obama has personally made (and not those attributed to him by pundits) as to why you cannot vote for him.



tafkam -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 1:48:40 PM)

He is pro-abortion in the extreme. I cannot vote for anyone who holds so little regard for the value of life.

Like most liberals, he seems to think that America is great because of government. Never once have I heard him extol the greatness of individualism or capitalism or personal freedoms.

He is weak on defense and national security. Compare McCain's comments on the recent upheaval in Georgia with Obama's bumbling "Well, I think they should both exercise some restraint" nonsense.



huskarine -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 1:56:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

He is pro-abortion in the extreme. I cannot vote for anyone who holds so little regard for the value of life.

Like most liberals, he seems to think that America is great because of government. Never once have I heard him extol the greatness of individualism or capitalism or personal freedoms.

He is weak on defense and national security. Compare McCain's comments on the recent upheaval in Georgia with Obama's bumbling "Well, I think they should both exercise some restraint" nonsense.


that and more...

how about his 3 years experience (the last year being campaigning)?!?!?!?[sm=yummy.gif][sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]



rcjames -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 2:10:35 PM)

I do not think the voting public knows enough about Obama to cast an informed ballot.

We see the packaging that the demokratic party wants us to see, but who is this guy really?

He is presented as a super intelligent scholar, but he cannot remember where he lived or who he associated with when he was in New York going to Columbia. He does remember hanging out is bars and "experimenting" with drugs, but not much else. One roomie that he does remember was busted for selling cocaine during the time he was Obama's homie.

He took a trip to Pakistan, but doesn't remember how he paid for it; give me a break.

Something is reeking in his past; a little full disclosure would go a long way ckearing up the confusion.

Thanks
RC



Zhi -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 2:16:13 PM)

His record indicates that he supports abortion to the point of infanticide (specifically his vote against the Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act). As such, I cannot, in good conscience, support him.

I wouldn't say that I "fear" him, per se, but as I consider protection of the unborn and newly born a large factor in how I decide who to vote for, my necessary choice is pretty clear.



tafkam -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 2:18:33 PM)

At first I thought "fear" was a strong word, but then when I consider that this is a man who adovcates stabbing babies in the back of the head and sucking their brains out, or leaving newly born infants to die from neglect, then suddenly I think the word "fear" isn't strong enough...



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 3:19:10 PM)

Fear?? Are we Obamaphobes now? [8|] Does this make the idea of opposition to the One more palatable?

I'm bitterly clinging to my guns and religion.



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 3:25:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

His record indicates that he supports abortion to the point of infanticide (specifically his vote against the Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act).


That charge has already been rebutted at far too much length. try to keep up.



WesP -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 3:31:37 PM)

He thinks it is the government's job to increase handouts to people who refuse to help themselves.



Zhi -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 3:54:07 PM)

quote:

That charge has already been rebutted at far too much length. try to keep up.

I've seen the excuses, I'm not particularly impressed. Whatever you want to say about it, the fact remains that he's a demonstrably staunch supporter of abortion, and that's enough for any pro-lifer, especially given that most of us consider partial-birth and late-term abortions to also be infanticide.



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 4:16:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

That charge has already been rebutted at far too much length. try to keep up.

I've seen the excuses, I'm not particularly impressed. Whatever you want to say about it, the fact remains that he's a demonstrably staunch supporter of abortion, and that's enough for any pro-lifer, especially given that most of us consider partial-birth and late-term abortions to also be infanticide.


How about in cases where McCain finds exceptions, also? Does JSM pass the litmus test?



Zhi -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 4:40:19 PM)

quote:

How about in cases where McCain finds exceptions, also? Does JSM pass the litmus test?

I have not mentioned JSM at all, as that is not the topic. Let's return to the topic, shall we?



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 4:44:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

How about in cases where McCain finds exceptions, also? Does JSM pass the litmus test?

I have not mentioned JSM at all, as that is not the topic. Let's return to the topic, shall we?


Okay, back to the subject: You have stated that you cannot vote for Obama becuase of his pro-choice position. Does that extend to ALL candidates with some form of pro-choice views, or are you choosing to be inconsistent?



Zhi -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 4:58:54 PM)

quote:

Okay, back to the subject: You have stated that you cannot vote for Obama becuase of his pro-choice position. Does that extend to ALL candidates with some form of pro-choice views, or are you choosing to be inconsistent?

Well, as it is for everyone, I assume, choosing a presidential candidate (or any other candidate, for that matter) is a matter of priorities. As I've mentioned, one of my big priorities is being pro-life. Naturally I have other priorities. So, when I decide who to vote for, it's important to determine which of my priorities the position in question is able to affect, and how well the candidate reflects my priorities in the areas they are capable of affecting. Therefore, a Presidential candidate is capable of affecting my pro-life priorities because the President chooses new members of the Supreme Court. A Congressman is capable of passing new federal laws, so it's a consideration with them too. When we're talking about the election of the local dog catcher, though, his position on abortion is somewhat of a moot point.

In the same way, if you have a Presidential candidate who is staunchly anti-abortion but wants to execute everyone who has blue eyes, well, other priorities on my part are going to trump my support of his beliefs on abortion and I will probably vote for the guy who doesn't want to kill me.

That being said, my personal method of choosing who I'm voting for really isn't the topic either, so can we get back to why people are choosing not to vote specifically for Obama?



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:01:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

Okay, back to the subject: You have stated that you cannot vote for Obama becuase of his pro-choice position. Does that extend to ALL candidates with some form of pro-choice views, or are you choosing to be inconsistent?

Well, as it is for everyone, I assume, choosing a presidential candidate (or any other candidate, for that matter) is a matter of priorities. As I've mentioned, one of my big priorities is being pro-life. Naturally I have other priorities. So, when I decide who to vote for, it's important to determine which of my priorities the position in question is able to affect, and how well the candidate reflects my priorities in the areas they are capable of affecting. Therefore, a Presidential candidate is capable of affecting my pro-life priorities because the President chooses new members of the Supreme Court. A Congressman is capable of passing new federal laws, so it's a consideration with them too. When we're talking about the election of the local dog catcher, though, his position on abortion is somewhat of a moot point.

In the same way, if you have a Presidential candidate who is staunchly anti-abortion but wants to execute everyone who has blue eyes, well, other priorities on my part are going to trump my support of his beliefs on abortion and I will probably vote for the guy who doesn't want to kill me.

That being said, my personal method of choosing who I'm voting for really isn't the topic either, so can we get back to why people are choosing not to vote specifically for Obama?


So, how do you feel about a candidate who is openly pro-choice, with limits, as opposed to one who favors a 'rape' exception - but doesn't require proof of rape, ie, a stealth pro-choice candidate?



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:01:32 PM)

I fear his incredibly white teeth.



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:03:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy

I fear his incredibly white teeth.


They are a side benefit of his Hawaiian upbringing.



Zhi -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:04:03 PM)

quote:

So, how do you feel about a candidate who is openly pro-choice, with limits, as opposed to one who favors a 'rape' exception - but doesn't require proof of rape, ie, a stealth pro-choice candidate?

Again, that's not the topic. Can we get on topic?



Psalms274 -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:06:12 PM)

quote:

That charge has already been rebutted at far too much length. try to keep up.



The following is an excerpt from The New Republic, a liberal "paper." (I know it can be found on the web here, but i am not sure if it is printed on paper .... the old fashion way. [;)])

in referring to The Born Alive Infant Protection Act

"The campaign's response to the controversy shows that it recognizes the damage it could do to Obama's ambitions: Instead of defending the vote, Obama and his surrogates have sought to excuse it. First they insisted he would have supported the Illinois bill had its language resembled the federal version. Then, when it came to light that the language of the two bills was virtually identical, they claimed that the candidate opposed the bill because it had no "neutrality clause"....

And yet it appears that the final version of the bill contained precisely such language - a fact that apparently did nothing to change Obama's mind about its merits."

Mr. Obama then conceded to the truth of this ... but I cannot for the life of me find a link ... I heard him say it on the radio ... but do not remember who was doing the interview ... it's fairly recent.

So I am afraid your current belief about what really happened is incorrect.

I'll keep looking for that quote ... hopefully it's on tape so you will not have a way to dispute the veracity of the words.



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:06:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

So, how do you feel about a candidate who is openly pro-choice, with limits, as opposed to one who favors a 'rape' exception - but doesn't require proof of rape, ie, a stealth pro-choice candidate?

Again, that's not the topic. Can we get on topic?


Since when is Obama and his views on abortion not part of the subject? Or are his views not something about him you 'fear'?



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:15:07 PM)

Sorry, but the New Republic piece is arguing from a flawed contention - that Obama 'fail(s) to "support" children "born alive,"', when in fact his reason for voting against the final form of IL-BAIPA was that the issue was already covered, AND IN MORE POWERFUL TERMS, by existing Illinois law.

As any first-year law student, geometric logician, or anyone else trained in rational thinking can tell you, arguing from a false premise is instant death to the validity of any final conclusion, as indeed it does here.

It's a shame, really, Damon Linker has done some sound work in the past. maybe he wrote that article before his morning coffee.

Really, this has been rebutted at far too much length to go through it again.



ljmac -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:18:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

His record indicates that he supports abortion to the point of infanticide (specifically his vote against the Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act).


That charge has already been rebutted at far too much length. try to keep up.


Actually it is far worse than that. During the debate on the bill he said that providing health care to a live baby who was an intended abortion victim was unconstitutional. I'm in a hurry so I'll provide the link later. It's in one of my previous posts if anyone really wants to find it.



Zhi -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:20:29 PM)

quote:

Since when is Obama and his views on abortion not part of the subject? Or are his views not something about him you 'fear'?

I've stated my views on Obama in this thread. I'm not getting into the rest of it because it's not on topic. If you think my views about Obama are unclear, scroll up to post #5 of this thread and read it again.



ljmac -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:23:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

His record indicates that he supports abortion to the point of infanticide (specifically his vote against the Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act).


That charge has already been rebutted at far too much length. try to keep up.


Actually it is far worse than that. During the debate on the bill he said that providing health care to a live baby who was an intended abortion victim was unconstitutional. I'm in a hurry so I'll provide the link later. It's in one of my previous posts if anyone really wants to find it.


Here is Obama questioning the IL Born Alive Infant protection act in 2001.

"And if we’re placing a burden on the doctor that says you have to keep alive even a previable child as long as possible and give them as much medical attention as — as is necessary to try to keep that child alive, then we’re probably crossing the line in terms of unconstitutionality."

Here Obama is arguing that providing care to one of these children is "probably...unconstitutional(ity)." In normal person's language, this sicko says that it is against the law to help a child who survived abortion. This guy belongs on a child predators list.


If only we could stuff you back and make it legal.



StephK -> RE: Why I fear Obama (8/26/2008 5:30:35 PM)

I don't fear him at all it's just plain as day that he is not qualified to be the POTUS based on his lack of experience and judgment.



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