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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 11:36:29 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
I think when it comes to health insurance, it is a good idea to run it the same way you would a car insurance. What I mean is that the healthier you are, the cheaper the rate, and if you are a heavy drinker, smoker, or are more than a hundred pounds overweight then you pay more, the same way a safe driver with no accidents pays less than one who is constantly wrecking their vehicle and receiving traffic violations. It would be encouragement to people to stay healthy. But this kind of invalidates the reasoning behind GROUP health insurance in which the group as a whole determines the rate and everyone pays pretty much the same rate. If group insurance is going to do this then I don't much see the purpose of group health insurance. We should all just have to pay market rates or go without. 
They are paying a "market" rate. They have conditions that require additional health care as opposed to a healthier person who may go to the doctor once a year for a checkup. Additional services require additional funds. You pay more for additional coverage in car insurance the same is true for your health insurance.
Good drivers would not like it if they were paying the same as a bad drivers who would be raising the rates for the rest of the group. People who aren't taking care of their health are driving badly down the raod of life!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 11:38:54 AM
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P31W
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Let me ask you a question those of you who are upset over this.
Why should "Fred" be forced to pay for your bad habits. Fred cannot control what "you" do with your own body. But he can control what he does with his. Yet "you" want him to pay for your own lifestyle choice.
How in your widest dreams do you consider that to be right or fair to Fred?
I believe the employer is simply looking out for the best interest of Fred the innocent party who does not and should not have to suffer for other's lifestyle choices.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 11:40:14 AM
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P31W
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quote:
People who aren't taking care of their health are driving badly down the raod of life!
Great quote of the day!!!!! 
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 11:46:45 AM
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NoShow
Posts: 461
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
They want to say these are rick factors that are being charged for. OK, what about the extreme sports enthusiast? What about the chronic alcoholic? Why are these people's rick factor's being examined, why is it just obesity? Isn't the risk higher for some other groups as well?
It says they already charge workers who smoke.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 11:58:36 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1430
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The problem that most of us are pointing out is that a) being "fat" is not the only lifestyle choice that causes issues, and b) BMI is a very ineffective way to try to determine whether someone is at higher risk.
Driving records are pretty easy to get ahold of, and are not private. Health records are supposed to be. There are many factors that can make a person overweight, from personal choice to genetics to diseases (like thyroid disease). If we're going to open up genetics as a valid reason to charge a person more, then everyone who has any family record of cancer, heart disease, genetic diseases, etc, is going to get higher rates simply because they have "bad" genetics. If we're going to open up choices as a valid reason to charge a person more, why stop with their eating habits? Why not find out their sexual habits? Promiscuity can lead to more disease. What about their choices in exercise? If they want to take Tae Kwon Do instead of a nice, safe, spinning class, they could break a leg... let's not even DISCUSS how dangerous rock climbing could be, if you don't fall off and break something you could get Lyme disease from a tick.
And, BMI is a horrible metric. Bodybuilders at 5% fat will have a high BMI. Studies have shown it's basically useless in determining increased likelihood of heart disease and cholesterol. If they want to check something, they should check cholesterol levels and blood pressure, because at least that's a real indicator.
Going by BMI to determine if you deserve higher rates is like deciding that you're a risk because you're driving a Ford and for some reason Fords have been involved in more accidents, statistically, than other models.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 12:03:26 PM
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P31W
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The State Employees' Insurance Board earlier this month approved a plan to charge state workers starting in January 2010 if they don't get free health screenings.
If the screenings turn up serious problems with blood pressure, cholesterol, glucose or obesity, employees will have a year to see a doctor at no cost, enroll in a wellness program or take steps on their own to improve their health. If they show progress in a follow-up screening, they won't be charged. But if they don't, they must pay starting in January 2011.
"We are trying to get individuals to become more aware of their health," said state worker Robert Wagstaff, who serves on the insurance board.
Not all state employees see it that way.
"It's terrible," said health department employee Chequla Motley. "Some people come into this world big."
Computer technician Tim Colley already pays $24 a month for being a smoker and doesn't like the idea of another charge.
"It's too Big Brotherish," he said.
The board will apply the obesity charge to anyone with a body mass index of 35 or higher who is not making progress. A person 5 feet 6 inches tall weighing 220 pounds, for example, would have a BMI of 35.5. A BMI of 30 is considered the threshold for obesity.
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This is copy from the article. I am sure body builders would get a pass on this once they get their free medical exam and the doctor gives his finds that there is "no obesity" problem.
quote:
There are many factors that can make a person overweight
The reason people are overwieght is because they take in more calories than they burn. People in third world countries don't have obesity problem because they don't have the calorie intake that we here in the south do. Mississippi has the highest obesity rate in the country. The one trying to take away our "famous top position for being fat" is Alabama.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 12:19:43 PM
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stellaluna
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Here's a story for you. While working at a former job, we started seeing signs posted around the building encouraging people to go to the gym. (All employees had free memberships to the gym of their choice.) Because I thought that was odd, and I'm nosy naturally, I asked my supervisor about it. He confided in me that the insurance company was threatening to raise the group rate because so many people are now overweight--not so many people at our company, so many people in general. (At our company, I would say more than half of the 75 or so employees were overweight, with about a dozen who were seriously obese.)
The head honchos were trying to keep the rates the same--both for the employees and for them, since they were paying the bulk of the premiums. The company had been getting a discount for offering the gym memberships, which offset the extra amount they had to pay for any smokers on staff. But the insurance company had decided to take away the blanket gym discount and only give discounts for employees that actually went to the gym. Basically, our managers were required to get documentation each month from each gym that showed how many times each employee showed up to work out.
After a couple of months of the new signs, there weren't any more people going to the gym, so a "Biggest Loser" contest was announced. The GM said it was cheaper to pay people to lose weight than to pay the higher insurance premiums and the deadline for that was coming up. Only five people signed up for the contest, which required at least one trip to the gym each week. So the company offered to pay for personal training for all employees that weren't regular gym goers. Two people took the offer. Three months later, our insurance premiums went up. (Doubled, in fact, for employees.)
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 12:29:13 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
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Stellaluna, did you notice how the were sneaky about it? They subtly posted the "warnings" without coming right out and telling the employees. You noticed, how many others didn't? Our government does this to us, slowly introducing new ideas to the public, basically attempting to desensitize them. Health has not always been a concern in this country. The last twenty years or so, it has become absurdly focused upon.
I for one don't appreciate being told what I have to do or will be charged because I don't view it as they do. Not just for insurance , but for anything. I feel like, if I pay for it, who is anyone else to tell me what I can do with my product, you know?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 12:39:17 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
The last twenty years or so, it has become absurdly focused upon.
20 years ago people didn't desire the quality or quanity of health care they demand today.
Use to be people just knew they would die if they did certain things quicker than they would die if they didn't.
quote:
if I pay for it, who is anyone else to tell me what I can do with my product, you know?
That is what this is about. You pay for it and smoke and eat all you want.
If you don't want to pay for it then stop smoking and eating so much.
_________
BTW this is not about the "government". It's a business agreement between the one who sells insurance and the one who wants to buy it.
I go to the insurance company and request a certain type of policy. They quote me a price based on several factors. I can chose to turn down the company's offer and go to another or I can choose to accpet their offer.
I am with BCBS it cost $747.00 per month.
I don't know if Stella is overwieght or not but if she is thin I see no reason for "her" to pay for my choice to be fat. 
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 12:43:17 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
I for one don't appreciate being told what I have to do or will be charged because I don't view it as they do.
Then self insure. There is no law again doing that. Self insure.
Again this is YOU wanting a service a company provides. If you don't like the price they want to charge you then get over it. Don't blame the insurance company because they don't want to take on "your risk" at a price that "you" think is reasonable.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 12:46:53 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
20 years ago people didn't desire the quality or quanity of health care they demand today.
Contribution of the baby boomers.
I'm not looking for advice here, so it's not needed. This is not a I'm right everyone else is wrong thread. You have your views, we all have our views.
That's the point of the thread-to discuss our views on it.
This isn't the thread for anyone to come and tell them how to do it.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 1:14:34 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
The last twenty years or so, it has become absurdly focused upon.
20 years ago people didn't desire the quality or quanity of health care they demand today.
Use to be people just knew they would die if they did certain things quicker than they would die if they didn't.
And health care costs at least double of what it did 20 years ago too!
quote:
That is what this is about. You pay for it and smoke and eat all you want.
If you don't want to pay for it then stop smoking and eating so much.
I don't know if Stella is overwieght or not but if she is thin I see no reason for "her" to pay for my choice to be fat.
Exactly! Why is it such a crime to try more persuasive methods to get people to be more healthy? It's not until it hits a person's pocketbook before people take action. They overspend until bankruptcy hits. They drive fuel inefficient cars until gas hits $5 per gallon. It's the usual syndrome where people want to live any way they want free of any consequences.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 1:27:32 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Why is it such a crime to try more persuasive methods to get people to be more healthy?
Because it's really not a choice, it's forced.
I'm all for paying the consequences of our actions. If people live irresponsibly, they should pay the consequences for it and they will. However, a company forcing someone to do it, is another story.
It's like the transfat ban. Government entities made that one too, not asking the people what they thought about it, but just did it.
No, I don't think that is acceptable. It's the creation of robots. We are a free country, yet we are free with a price tag should we decide to NOT want their type of freedom.
This goes much deeper than just the insurance issue. I'm convinced that is is a type of conditioning.
It's not so much for me, the fat fee, it's about the forcing of it. Some people just don't want to be healthy. That's that person's problem and choice. They should not be forced to do something they don't want to do. It has singled out select groups rather than deem all risk factors involved. It's not a fair and just course of action.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 1:45:04 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
Because it's really not a choice, it's forced.
It is a choice.
If you want to pay less for medical insurance then you stop eating so much and smoking.
If you want to pay more for medical insurance you can pay more money and do as you please.
The "choice" is up to each individual. More money for medical insurance or less. The choice is up to them. They have the right to eat and smoke all they want but they don't have the right to expect "others" to pay for that.
No one should be "forced" to pay for your bad habits. It's cruel for you to pretend that they should.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 1:49:31 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
Exactly! Why is it such a crime to try more persuasive methods to get people to be more healthy? It's not until it hits a person's pocketbook before people take action. They overspend until bankruptcy hits. They drive fuel inefficient cars until gas hits $5 per gallon. It's the usual syndrome where people want to live any way they want free of any consequences.
I am involved in three threads that at the root deal with personal responsibility and how people in this country simply don't get it. 
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 1:50:50 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Why is it such a crime to try more persuasive methods to get people to be more healthy?
Because it's really not a choice, it's forced.
I'm all for paying the consequences of our actions. If people live irresponsibly, they should pay the consequences for it and they will. However, a company forcing someone to do it, is another story.
It's like the transfat ban. Government entities made that one too, not asking the people what they thought about it, but just did it.
No, I don't think that is acceptable. It's the creation of robots. We are a free country, yet we are free with a price tag should we decide to NOT want their type of freedom.
This goes much deeper than just the insurance issue. I'm convinced that is is a type of conditioning.
It's not so much for me, the fat fee, it's about the forcing of it. Some people just don't want to be healthy. That's that person's problem and choice. They should not be forced to do something they don't want to do. It has singled out select groups rather than deem all risk factors involved. It's not a fair and just course of action.
The only thing ins. co's are forcing is for people to pay more for insurance if they are living unhealthy lifestyles. No one is following them around 24/7 to make them live that way. That is still left up to the person's personal choice.
I am singled out by real estate agent's to value houses in my area a certain way; I am singled out because of the house I live in to pay a certain amount of property tax; I am singled out because of my income to pay a certain percentage in tax; I am singled out by my auto insurance co. for the type of car I drive and my driving record; I am singled out by my life insurance co. due to my age; in other words, I am "singled out" for a lot of things.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 1:56:40 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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True. My cousin is a great driver, no accidents, older model car.
He pays high auto rates because he lives in a certain zip code..one wher car theft and vandalism is a problem.
Now, I have not had surgery since my tonsils in 1967, I am 48 but have low blood pressure and normal cholesteral, am a non smoker, but I pay higher rates on our group policy due to our employee's heart surgeries and diabetes.
by they way, neither of these two guys are fat, just the opposite. But they still have very unhealthy lifestyles.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:01:49 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
No one should be "forced" to pay for your bad habits. It's cruel for you to pretend that they should.
You say this but don't you realize that we already are?
We do it wit our taxes. There is no choice in that. We do it with our premiums that we don't even make use of to pay the claims of the unhealthy ones.
Don't you see that this is only another way for us to spend more out of pocket?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:02:44 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1430
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But they're choosing a poor metric.
BMI is not a good indicator of cholesterol levels or blood pressure.
You might as well say that anyone who has blue eyes has to pay more since blue eyed people might be more likely to get, say, skin cancer.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:05:52 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
BMI is not a good indicator of cholesterol levels or blood pressure.
Is any of really a good metric? There are things that all of us do that could be measured as a risk factor. Just because one hasn't visited a doctor doesn't mean that they are 100% healthy. Just because you don't have any tickets, doesn't mean you don't speed, it means you just haven't gotten caught.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:06:45 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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BMI is not a good indicator of cholesterol levels or blood pressure.
I believe they said in the article that when you go for your free medical exam they would check these things and offer your free medical help for a year to help get these things under control if they were not in the normal range.
Cholesterol levels are checked with a blood test.
Blood pressure is done with that thing they put on your arm.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:08:47 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Don't you see that this is only another way for us to spend more out of pocket?
You mean it's another way to help people who make wise choices pay less and those who are more likely to have costly medical bills pay more.
quote:
We do it with our premiums that we don't even make use of to pay the claims of the unhealthy ones.
Medical insurance through an insurance company is not something you MUST have like you must pay taxes. As I said before you are free to self insure. But you better save alot of money becuase if you are as unhealthy as you suggest and as hard headed about staying that way I have a feeling your cost are going to be out of this world.
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:09:52 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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How is it just if it's a hereditary problem? My MIL has high cholesterol. She has tried every drug on the market to lower it. She is allergic to them and cannot take them. She's not fat or unhealthy. She watches her diet and excercises faithfully, yet it won't come down to a healthy level. Insurance won't cover her, so no one is paying for her but she can't even receive medical care. Yes, that's fair and just. She should be penalized for a choice she isn't making.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:11:30 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
You mean it's another way to help people who make wise choices pay less and those who are more likely to have costly medical bills pay more.
I really don't know why you think you are in reality going to pay less. You may right now, but in the end, they are going to sock it to you anyways. Or for are you just different from the rest of us and your insurance hasn't continued going up every year?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Fat fee? Paying because of obesity - 8/27/2008 2:13:40 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
But you better save alot of money becuase if you are as unhealthy as you suggest and as hard headed about staying that way I have a feeling your cost are going to be out of this world.
What about this is personal for me? I haven't said anything as such. I happen to be in extremely good healthy and thin.
Don't make this personal when it isn't.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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