a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (Full Version)

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chinesechristian -> a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/24/2008 7:10:00 PM)

why?



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/24/2008 9:19:26 PM)

This is one of the most difficult and debated issues in Christianity, so you'll probably get a lot of different opinions on this subject.
My own take is that we, as people, are born as sinners. Nobody is born innocent. We all have an inherently sinful nature. So, in my opinion, if a baby dies, they would go to hell. However, I am also of the opinion that there are multiple levels of judgment (both good judgment in heaven, and bad judgment in hell), and so a baby will experience a much lesser degree of punishment, since they will not have lived a sinful life.

Whatever the true answer is, it is reassuring that we can all trust in God, and know that He is the perfect judge. Whatever He decides, it is the best possible decision.



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (8/24/2008 11:14:14 PM)

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greatdivide46 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 6:45:50 AM)

While I agree that we are all born with an inherently sinful nature, I do not believe that people are condemned to hell for their nature. People are condemned to hell because of sins they commit and refuse to repent of, not because they have a sinful nature. Therefore, since infants have not committed any sins I believe they will be in heaven if they die. Personally, I believe in Original Grace rather than Original Sin.



LCannon -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 12:23:57 PM)

If one thinks an infant is aware of his arrogance probably he's not however the nature arrogance('I want my comfort and I want it now!')is well developed from birth. Since mankind(person hood)is ordained even 'before the very foundation of the world' and God has these eternal 'questions' already settled. In my estimation, He has ordained(created)unique essence despite our level of personal attributes freeing us to choose obedience(and His sacrifice)regardless of the 'age' of the individual. What mechanism? I have no clue, such is the nature of eternity. I'm content to let God be God.



Ps103 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 12:45:55 PM)

Babies never have the chance to reject Christ.

We should leave them to the mercy of a loving God.



cognitivemagic -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 3:49:22 PM)

quote:

Babies never have the chance to reject Christ.

We should leave them to the mercy of a loving God.


I agree with Ps103.

However, for those that have chosen "sin" and a wretched life apart from God, I would also say that "we should leave them to the mercy of a loving God", since He alone is Judge.



frankman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 4:18:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

Babies never have the chance to reject Christ.

We should leave them to the mercy of a loving God.


I also agree completely with Ps103. Now let`s look for some Biblical clues to see if the Bible agrees with us also.

Do you believe the former King of Israel King David is in heaven today? In 2 Samuel 11 David fathered a child with Uriah`s wife. As a result of this sin of adultery David was given this mesage from Nathan the prophet in 2 Sam.12:13+14. "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." The child did die and in 2 Sam.12:23 David makes this statement about his dead child. "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

David died years later and went to be to the place this child went. "I will go to him." If children die before they reach the age of accountability, if they die before they can understand the fact that they are sinners and need Christ, I believe these verses teach us that these innocent children go to heaven waiting for the rest of us to join them. This may also include mentally challenged people. Our God is a loving and just God and will not sent anybody to hell unless they deserve to go there. [sm=heart.gif] Little infants are innocent angels in God`s eyes.



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 4:28:23 PM)

quote:

However, for those that have chosen "sin" and a wretched life apart from God, I would also say that "we should leave them to the mercy of a loving God", since He alone is Judge.
By definition, they have rejected that mercy! An infant is incapable of such a choice.

Back to the real topic - the age of accountability has been debated on a few threads here in the past. There is some biblical support for the concept, but as MrF stated, much controversy exists among sincere Christians. I pesonally believe my denomination's teaching on the issue as follows: "The Atonement is graciously efficacious for the salvation of the irresponsible and for the children in innocency but is efficacious for the salvation of those who reach the age of responsibility only when they repent and believe."



loveineffable -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 4:32:24 PM)

Ask yourself this ? is God love? is god right, true, perfect, correct in all things? especially what has he shown all through time? is not it MERCY.

So I think that god whom is merciful, kind, and more than just, shown by his Son at the cross, proof in the ressurection to life everlasting and saying to us that believe and ask for mercy he shall give it.

So in conclusion a baby, is with God in heaven and you the believer will have a reunion with that baby, when your time to be there comes along.
So be thankful, this child does not have to go through this earthly life of confusion. Should of, could of and on and on with worldly deception

Salvation is obtained through God's mercy. see it at the cross. death, burial, ressurection.
ineffable love



Qtman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 4:39:44 PM)

As I said in another thread there are a lot of questions we just don't know the answer to. It is all in God's hands. I personally believe babies go to Heaven. It comforts me here on earth to believe that. When I get there I don't know if it will really be an issue or not. But until I get there I will believe they do.



TrustingChrist -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 7:24:22 PM)

This is an interesting question of which I have no answer but speculation is the best I have to offer. I would say that an infant would go to heaven.

With that said this does bring up a question that I would like answered. I have heard that as an infant we as humans are born into sin or sin nature which is basically the same thought. So the question is What about Jesus? Is he not born fully human just as us? Was he born is a sin nature? If not then how is it that he was born just as us? Does the bible teach that we inherit our fathers sin or we are only responsible for the sins we our self commit? If the bible says that Jesus had not one sin then how is it that if humans are born in sin or sin nature and Jesus is born as fully human just like us that he had no sin?

Maybe we need to rethink the born in sin / sin nature line of thinking and see if there is a way to line it up where we have Jesus being born as we are and not with sin. This is the problem I have with such thoughts could some one help me with this?



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 7:28:12 PM)

quote:

So the question is What about Jesus? Is he not born fully human just as us? Was he born is a sin nature? If not then how is it that he was born just as us


Jesus was fully human, yes, but He was also fully God. He was exempted from a sin nature. If He were not, then He would have no choice but to sin, since one's nature means just that - it is in their nature.
As for what mechanism caused that to happen, well, that's probably a topic for another thread, perhaps for the "God" section of the forums.



TrustingChrist -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 7:39:34 PM)

OK Sorry for getting off topic but not really in a way but that really does not answer the question. So I guess I will leave it at that so as not to derail the topic.



I was asked to move this line of questioning to another thread, so I posted it in the "God" section under God the Father, God the son (Jesus), and Jesus the man.

If intersted in this it is there so as not to derail this thread.



LBolt -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 8:21:39 PM)

I believe the Messiah had a propensity to sin but choose not to. THe temptions proved He was sinless. As far as a new born infant is concerned and aborted babies, Psalms tells us that children are a gift from God. As such, imo, I believe that when a baby dies or is aborted they spend eternity with our heavenly Abba (Father). They are not at the age of accountability, yet.

I totally disagree with Mr. Fribbles, I believe the goodness and mercy of God trumps!



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 8:48:41 PM)

quote:

I totally disagree with Mr. Fribbles, I believe the goodness and mercy of God trumps!


I sincerely hope you are right.



greatdivide46 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 9:56:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingChrist

If not then how is it that he was born just as us? Does the bible teach that we inherit our fathers sin?
If this is true, then, since God was Jesus' Father, it stands to reason that He did not inherit a sinful nature, since he didn't have a human father.



bob97 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/25/2008 10:24:09 PM)

Psalms 51:1 - 10 (KJV) 1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Sure sounds to me like we are conceived in acknowledged sin.

Bob



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 1:03:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman


I also agree completely with Ps103. Now let`s look for some Biblical clues to see if the Bible agrees with us also.

Do you believe the former King of Israel King David is in heaven today? In 2 Samuel 11 David fathered a child with Uriah`s wife. As a result of this sin of adultery David was given this mesage from Nathan the prophet in 2 Sam.12:13+14. "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." The child did die and in 2 Sam.12:23 David makes this statement about his dead child. "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

David died years later and went to be to the place this child went. "I will go to him."


David died and went in the direction his son went and like his son didn't return... And even if one wishes to believe the verse speaks of heaven, we are talking about a child, not children and the child of anointed king... I am sure Pharaoh thought he would see his first born after he died... As well, how does one account for the children outside the ark? Or those who Joshua put to the sword? Please reconcile that with the idea that children as a group are little angels in God's eyes and God commanded Joshua to put them like the men and women to the sword... Or with the fact that God chose one unborn child over another when neither had done good or bad...

quote:

If children die before they reach the age of accountability,


What age is that?


quote:


if they die before they can understand the fact that they are sinners and need Christ, I believe these verses teach us that these innocent children go to heaven waiting for the rest of us to join them. This may also include mentally challenged people. Our God is a loving and just God and will not sent anybody to hell unless they deserve to go there. [sm=heart.gif] Little infants are innocent angels in God`s eyes.


Only if you can remove little infants from mankind, which is said to be sinful and fall short of the glory of God... As well... Christ was adamant that one must be born again to see the Kingdom...

What condition is one in prior to being born again? Innocent and in the Spirit, or dead in sin and in need of a Savior?

The bible says blessed are those whose sins are covered...

No mention of blessed are those who said to be innocent... Cause there isn't anyone innocent...



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 1:21:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loveineffable

Ask yourself this ? is God love? is god right, true, perfect, correct in all things? especially what has he shown all through time? is not it MERCY.

So I think that god whom is merciful, kind, and more than just, shown by his Son at the cross, proof in the ressurection to life everlasting and saying to us that believe and ask for mercy he shall give it.

So in conclusion a baby, is with God in heaven and you the believer will have a reunion with that baby, when your time to be there comes along.
So be thankful, this child does not have to go through this earthly life of confusion. Should of, could of and on and on with worldly deception

Salvation is obtained through God's mercy. see it at the cross. death, burial, ressurection.
ineffable love


If your theory is right wouldn't it be more merciful for my four children to have their life taken as close to their birth as possible so they could avoid this life of confusion and be granted automatic salvation...

If babies all go to heaven I should have been praying for God to take their life, right? Why chance having them grow up past the never stated age of accountability, right? Surely it would be better to trade this life that is said to be liken to vapor for automatic eternal life...

On that note... Consider the following... God appoints the number of our days... So if babies are granted automatic salvation isn't that a indirect form of predestination? I really like when the real vocal free will types are all for this form of predestination... All their talk of man's responsibility is tossed aside and the idea that one must be born again is suspended in heartbeat...


And what of God being not a respecter of persons? Babies are said to saved because they are seen as innocent...Not because God is showing them mercy, which is unmerited favor...



Thessa -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 3:16:02 AM)

I believe all children and babies go to Heaven when they die, because they have not yet reached the age of accountability.



greatdivide46 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 7:30:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thessa

I believe all children and babies go to Heaven when they die, because they have not yet reached the age of accountability.

I agree with you, Thessa. I don't believe God will condemn infants to hell for someone else's sin. I suppose I could be wrong, but I don't see God condemning anyone to hell for anything except for the sins they've commited themselves.



Qtman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 8:44:48 AM)

This thread has really bothered me. There are those that say Yes babies go to heaven and there are those that say no babies don't go to heaven. There has been at least one that said babies go to hell. Others like me have said they believe babies go to heaven. The best answer so far came from Ps103 who said it is best left up to a mercyful God.

The truth is none of us know who is or is not in heaven. Unless of course some of you have better connection inside the pearly gates than I do. My dad was a devoted minister. Do I believe he is in heaven. Yep I sure do but I can't say that with any authority. My mom was a godly woman. Talked to God daily and prayed for her family and friends by calling their names. Do I believe she is in Heaven. I sure do. If she is not this old boy don't have a shot at being. Can I say with certainty she is in Heaven. No. That is where faith comes in.

There are scriptures that tell us certain people, only a very few, are in Heaven. Other than that we just simply do not know. All we can do is believe and have faith.

To the OP. Any flat out answer like yes or no you get to this question you should just ignore and leave the conversation because that person, regardless of who, does not know of that which they speak. All any of us can do is tell you what we believe. We won't know for certain until we get there.



TrustingChrist -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:00:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Psalms 51:1 - 10 (KJV) 1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Sure sounds to me like we are conceived in acknowledged sin.

Bob



The problem I see here is that You have David's plea to God for forgiveness of his adultery sins trumping Gods word on sins passed from father to son.

Listen to what God has to say about that "the sin of the father being passed onto the son" thing.

Eze 18,
1 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2 "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
5 "But if a man is righteous, and practices justice and righteousness,

Then later,

20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

So that leaves me looking for a better way to view this so as to let God's word ring true.



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:14:46 AM)

quote:

What age is that?
God knows every child's heart, SIH. Your theology above all others must acknowledge that fact!



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