what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (Full Version)

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chinesechristian -> what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/24/2008 7:05:45 PM)

what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ?

there are two kinds of church in china , three-self church(governmental church) and family church(underground church) .there are about 20 seminaries or bible colleges belongs to three-self church. nearly all of these seminaries or bible colleges teach about liberalism and neo-orthodox . family church reject liberalism and neo-orthodox .



colliefan -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/24/2008 7:38:18 PM)

By liberalism, do you mean teaching that deviates from traditional orthodoxy spelled out in the creeds and the confessions and devalues Scripture? If so, I am against such teachings.

The beauty of orthodoxy is that its teachings transcend time and culture. The method it is expressed many change, but its truth stands forever.



chinesechristian -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/24/2008 8:22:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

By liberalism, do you mean teaching that deviates from traditional orthodoxy spelled out in the creeds and the confessions and devalues Scripture? If so, I am against such teachings.

The beauty of orthodoxy is that its teachings transcend time and culture. The method it is expressed many change, but its truth stands forever.
yes ,they think bible has a lot of errs , they deny miracles, a lot of

students under this teaching ,they lost their fire hearts,their hearts

become colder and colder ,some of them lost their faith ,



colliefan -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/24/2008 9:08:06 PM)

quote:


yes ,they think bible has a lot of errs , they deny miracles, a lot of
students under this teaching ,they lost their fire hearts,their hearts
become colder and colder ,some of them lost their faith ,


Sounds like the seminary just down the road at Duke University



MrFribbles -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/24/2008 9:11:22 PM)

quote:

what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ?


From your description of it, I would say it is very much against the teaching of the Bible. It looks like one of mankind's sinful tries to put God into a box.



DaveW -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/25/2008 6:51:01 AM)

I am not surprised that a seminary which is approved by the admitedly athiest communist government would be teaching biblical error. I see no way that they could endorse an organization that teaches something they are opposed to.

The liberalism you describe has no place in the true biblical faith.



Bluethread -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/27/2008 2:26:33 PM)

Giving it the benefit of the doubt, liberalism is based on the "liberal" application of grace. "Let he who is without sin", "Judge not, lest you be not judged" and such as the biblical basis. Liberalism uses these verses to throw out moral standards. Then, once anarchy naturally results, liberals move in and, to protect the "innocents", make judgements and authoritarian socialism/communism is generally the result, in my opinion.

Regarding "neo-orthodox" beliefs, I am always cautious whenever anyone uses the prefix "neo". Though this prefix can refer to "the return to", there often seem to be little add-ons that can change the nature of the beliefs. So, I would have to hear the exact tenets before giving an opinion.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/28/2008 4:36:30 AM)

Liberalism and NeoOrthodoxy are both steeped in postmodernism. Based on that alone I would be tempted to reject both.

However, it is more a case-by-case kind of thing. Since I am so reluctant to make blanket statements, we would need to be more specific for a helpful evaluation. So what doctine are we actually talking about?

Adam



solarflare -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/29/2008 11:55:25 AM)

I have heard that is what the Government church in China has done. They have done this to try and show the world that there is religious freedom in China.

God is not religious.....He is Spirit and truth. Liberalism says we can interpret God and the Bible the way we want to. God says we can only really understand Him and the Bible by His Spirit.

That is what I think.....there are many people in North America that agree with liberalism. That, is because they do not want to follow the way that Jesus showed us we should live.

Yes, you will loose fire in your heart if you follow what man says. Only God can put fire in your heart to believe in His Son and to follow Him.

God bless you Chinese Christian.



chinesechristian -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/29/2008 9:17:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

I have heard that is what the Government church in China has done. They have done this to try and show the world that there is religious freedom in China.


what you said is true ,i was a seminary student in shanghai ,i studied in shanghai east china theological seminary (goventmental seminary), i studied two years , i give up the later two years ,and i went home , i think i f i want to keep my pure faith ,i must left there.

quote:


God is not religious.....He is Spirit and truth. Liberalism says we can interpret God and the Bible the way we want to. God says we can only really understand Him and the Bible by His Spirit.

That is what I think.....there are many people in North America that agree with liberalism. That, is because they do not want to follow the way that Jesus showed us we should live.

Yes, you will loose fire in your heart if you follow what man says. Only God can put fire in your heart to believe in His Son and to follow Him.

God bless you Chinese Christian.
God bless you too ,and pray for our coutry ,pray for our church ,may lord keep our faith



colliefan -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/29/2008 9:34:34 PM)

quote:

God bless you too ,and pray for our coutry ,pray for our church ,may lord keep our faith


blessings to you...you know more than others what it means to count the costs of following the Master



Makrothumeo -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/29/2008 10:56:48 PM)

quote:

what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ?


"We must have the courage to make no compromise with liberal theology and especially neo-orthodox existential theology. Christianity is a specific body of truth. There is truth, and we must hold that truth. There will be borderline things in which we have differences among ourselves, but on the central issues there must be no compromise."

"And as we have a strong doctrinal content, we must practice the content, practice the truth we say we believe. We must exhibit to our own children and to the watching world that we take truth seriously. It will not do in a relativistic age to say that we believe in truth and fail to practice that truth in places where it may be observed and where it is costly. We, as Christians, say we believe that truth exists. We say we have truth from the Bible. And we say we can give that truth to other men in propositional, verbalized form and they may have that truth. This is exactly what the gospel claims and this is what we claim. But then we are surrounded by a relativistic age. Do you think for a moment we will have credibility if we say we believe the truth and yet do not practice the truth in religious matters? If we do not do this, we cannot expect for a moment that the tough-minded, twentieth-century young person (including our own young people) will take us seriously when we say, "here is truth" when they are surrounded by a totally monolithic consensus that truth does not exist."

"But then we are surrounded by a relativistic age. Do you think for a moment we will have credibility if we say we believe the truth and yet do not practice the truth in religious matters? If we do not do this, we cannot expect for a moment that the tough-minded, twentieth-century young person (including our own young people) will take us seriously when we say, "here is truth" when they are surrounded by a totally monolithic consensus that truth does not exist."

"It is the central things of the Word of God which make Christianity Christianity. These we must hold tenaciously, and, even when it is costly for us and even when we must cry, we must maintain that there is not only an antithesis of truth, but an antithesis that is observable in practice. Out of a loyalty to the infinite-personal God who is there and who has spoken in Scripture, and out of compassion for our own young people and others, we who are evangelicals dare not take a halfway position concerning truth or the practice of truth."
(Francis A. Schaeffer, Two Contents, Two Realities ch.1)

Sorry, I've been rereading some Schaeffer and couldn't really say it any better than he did.

Blessings mate!



gatolover -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (8/31/2008 10:11:21 PM)

Greetings, Makrothumeo,

quote:

"We must have the courage to make no compromise with liberal theology and especially neo-orthodox existential theology. Christianity is a specific body of truth. There is truth, and we must hold that truth. There will be borderline things in which we have differences among ourselves, but on the central issues there must be no compromise."


I wonder who gets to decide "the central issues" on which "there must be no compromise?"

I think that's a major issue in modern-day Christianity, don't you?

Pax Christi,

gatolover



facedown -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/2/2008 9:24:50 PM)

what do i think of "liberalism and neo-orthodox"?

what kind of question is that, other than one loaded with preconceptions of what those words may or may not mean?

gatolover
excellent thoughts in post 13



Nothingman -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/2/2008 10:16:02 PM)

I'm a little cautious as I write this considering the audience to whom it is for but I will say that "liberal and neo-orthodox" theology deserves a little more of a nuanced discussion than what it is so far being given here. Now I'm no expert on the matter but from what I do know I can tell you that, like most disciplines or schools of thought' there are a wide variety of competing ideas circulating under those two categorical headings so to ask "what do you think about liberal/N-O theology" begs the question as to which aspects and issues within the discussion do you refer to... There is no blanket "liberal" theology and it depends on each particular theological issue as to what that school of thought has to say about it and/or what questions arise from it...

now, in the most general sense I think the 'liberal' theologians, if we are to find a most common denomator, would perhaps agree on the issue of Biblical irrerancy, and specifically, deny such a claim. Instead of reading the Bible as having two quotation marks, one before Genesis and one after Revelation, signed by God (ie Biblical infallibility), the Bible is viewed more along the lines of revealing what certain groups/people believed and thought about God at specific times in history admist certain culteral backgrounds. As such when one reads the Bible, it is not necessarily to be read as a one-dimentional truth proposition from God, or a journalistic account of history and God, but as an anthology of religious insight developed over a long time period that discusses various theological issues over various time periods...


That is perhaps one of the most generalized summaries of 'liberal' theology and as stated before, the discussion hasn't really started until specific theological issues are raised and considered. But as far as consideration of the irerrancy of the Bible is concerned, 'liberal' theology is vastly different from the Evangelical view. As such it is no wonder that on a discussion board as this it would be treated with suspicion, disdain and contempt....



Bluethread -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/3/2008 3:58:17 AM)

Then, in your opinion, would "liberal" theology do with those passages that are in quotes?



Nothingman -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/3/2008 4:28:58 AM)

Are you asking if I think Schaeffer's quotes correctly define liberal theology?



Bluethread -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/3/2008 6:38:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nothingman

Are you asking if I think Schaeffer's quotes correctly define liberal theology?


No, I'm asking, if liberal theologians do not see the Scriptures as a direct quote of Adonai, but views of Adonai from various prespectives, what do you think they do with those parts of the Scriptures that do quote Adonai?



Nothingman -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/3/2008 9:29:34 PM)

quote:

Then, in your opinion, what would "liberal" theology do with those passages that are in quotes?


You didn't include 'what' (highlighted) thus my confusion to your question :) Moving on...

quote:

No, I'm asking, if liberal theologians do not see the Scriptures as a direct quote of Adonai, but views of Adonai from various prespectives, what do you think they do with those parts of the Scriptures that do quote Adonai?


Well I'd first be careful to say anything like 'liberal theologians would say such and such' for they really are such a vast and diverse group of thinkers with a wide variety of ideas that one can't really just sum them up categorically. Its like asking what scientists believe in general when, within the scientific community, depending on any given issue, you are going to find alot of disagreement and competing theories. Keeping what I just said in mind I think its safe to say that most would interpret the quoted passages as the writers' attempt to verbalize what he felt God was speaking to him, or something to that effect. Now saying that, that in no way says anything concerning the issue of what degree of value those passages would be given. Such an approach does not mean that those quoted passages aren't true or that they just are fanciful whims of an archaic writer. In my experience, when discussing this issue with Evangelicals(who naturally are extremely alarmed and distrustful of Liberal theology, as exemplified by those Schaeffer quotes), the latter will usually create a false dichotomy by insisting that if the Bible is not the infallible Word of God, then it is meaningless, or just empty words, or useless etc. This need not be the case. If anything I think keeping in mind that the Bible wasn't written by God(literally) but by men, and knowing the fallibility of man, it makes sense to glean the spiritually valuable stuff apart from the fallible vessel in which it was delieved (man)...



colliefan -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/3/2008 10:09:47 PM)

quote:

I think keeping in mind that the Bible wasn't written by God(literally) but by men


so the Bible is not the inspired, innerant Word of God? So you take these verses to be a lie?

2 Tim 3:16 - 17 (ESV) 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of GodŁ may be competent, equipped for every good work.



Nothingman -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/3/2008 10:55:14 PM)

colliedan, I would appreciate if you read my entire post before you reply, for if you had you would have already read the answer to your question...



Ezra -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/4/2008 1:19:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

what do i think of "liberalism and neo-orthodox"?

what kind of question is that, other than one loaded with preconceptions of what those words may or may not mean?


facedown:

This is actually an excellent question, and the terms "liberalism" or "theological liberalism" and "neo-orthodoxy" are well-defined.

Liberalism is a rejection of the Bible as the Word of God and Bible doctrine as the truth of God, in favor of the humanistic philosophical and sociological ideas of the late 19th and 20th centuries.

Neo-orthodoxy is a form of liberalism as an attempt to re-interpret Orthodox Christianity with anti-supernaturalism, and the rejection of the doctrine of Christ as presented in the Bible -- that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

In essence, these are departures from the faith and may be rightly termed as apostasy, which was prophesied to appear in "the last days".

While there may be a wide range of liberals, the essential liberal position is a rejection of the Bible as a divinely inspired (supernatural) book which is inerrant and infallible. Therefore these theologies are an attack on Scripture and Bible truth, even though they wear "Christian garb". We can fairly call such theologians "wolves in sheep's clothing".



Ezra -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/4/2008 1:32:10 AM)

quote:

'liberal' theology is vastly different from the Evangelical view. As such it is no wonder that on a discussion board as this it would be treated with suspicion, disdain and contempt....


Liberal theology is spiritual poison. Therefore it must be regarded as poisonous and labelled as "POISON" (with a skull and cross-bones).

Sadly, the major Christians denominations allowed themselves to be infected with this poison instead of rejecting it out of hand. This was in spite of repeated warnings in the Bible to beware of false prophets, false apostles and false teachers.

If the Bible is not a supernatural book, if the Gospel is not a supernatural revelation , if Christ is not a supernatural Person, and if the New Birth is not a supernatural phenomenon, there is no need for Christianity to exist.



Nothingman -> RE: what do you think of liberalism and neo-orthodox ? (9/4/2008 2:52:09 AM)

quote:

Liberalism is a rejection of the Bible as the Word of God and Bible doctrine as the truth of God, in favor of the humanistic philosophical and sociological ideas of the late 19th and 20th centuries.


Liberalism is not a rejection of the Bible as the Word of God. As I said earlier, it is easy to falsely dichotomize the issue of how we view the Bible but such a view is incorrect. Liberals do not replace the Bible with humanistic philosophies; if they did then why would they even bother with the Bible, reading it, studying, following it and essentially placing their trust in Jesus...Like I said before, and for some reason some people have a difficult time grasping this concept, just because one does not hold to the view that the Bible is the innerent and infallible word from God does not mean that it isn't divinely inspired and absolutely essential, central, vital and the source of our Christian walk. You need to understand that and stop this silly claim that Liberals are simply "humanists"...


quote:

Neo-orthodoxy is a form of liberalism as an attempt to re-interpret Orthodox Christianity with anti-supernaturalism, and the rejection of the doctrine of Christ as presented in the Bible -- that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.


Incorrect. The neo-orthodox strain of liberal thought (however out of date the term 'neo-orthodox' is...) does not reject the doctrine of Christ as presented in the Bible. Although I'm sure you could find some that do, they are in the minute minority; the Divination of Jesus as God is central to neo-orthodoxing...

quote:

In essence, these are departures from the faith and may be rightly termed as apostasy, which was prophesied to appear in "the last days".

It is easy to label anyone who does not have the exact view as you as an aspostate but probably a little unfair seeing how warped your understanding of them is...btw, I know a couple "liberals"; they are some of the most fervent followers of Christ I know.

quote:

While there may be a wide range of liberals, the essential liberal position is a rejection of the Bible as a divinely inspired (supernatural) book which is inerrant and infallible. Therefore these theologies are an attack on Scripture and Bible truth, even though they wear "Christian garb". We can fairly call such theologians "wolves in sheep's clothing".
Yes they reject the notion that the Bible is inerrent and infallible, but that does not mean they do not believe it is divinely inspired...I hope you are able to understand the differance.



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