struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (Full Version)

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ktbeth22 -> struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/23/2008 11:10:47 PM)

I have some questions that I need answered. Please bear with me as some of the questions repeat and are simply phrased differently.

1) My Christian walk is this unavoidable struggle to attempt to please the Lord and prove my love while failing at every step. I am commanded to love the Lord with all of my heart and mind, but how can I say that I love Him if I disobey and am prone to sin all the time? Even when I think I am pure, I know that I am not, because the fact that I cannot think of a sin I have committed makes me prideful. How is there any hope for true goodness except in death?

2) There is this interesting experiment that I have stumbled across where a Christian, in an attempt to in the end recognize and understand more of who God is and more fully devote their life to Him, will commit a sin in hopes to wake themselves up from their apathy and find joy in the aftermaths of repentance and forgiveness. It is along the lines of "Every Christian should get drunk at least once a year if only to repent afterwards." This is one way that leads to Christ. In my black and white framed mind, I have difficulty grasping it. Yet, I am doing it myself. How does this make sense? It is a path that the Scripture does not condone, yet it works.

3) Suffering in the Christian walk is praised in the Bible. Indeed, suffering has its merits-- it strips away all pleasure and creates a very narrow, yet fulfilling, path to finding joy only in Christ. If my circumstances do not allow for any joy or happiness in the least, and yet I am still joyful, then I must be finding that joy in Christ and I have become fully reliant on Him. The Lord led the Israelites through the wilderness to test them and to know what was in their hearts. Yet, we are to pray for the Lord to bless us and for Jesus to give us good gifts. If blessings from the Lord in a sense distract us from true joy in Him then how are they good? For example, if I pray for the Lord to give me a husband and when He answers it, I become more materialistically oriented in order to please my husband, how is this good? I have seen it so many times in my Christian friends who are consumed with love for one another. They get married and then become content in their happiness, no longer seeing a need to pursue after God's heart fully.

4) Scripture tells us that we will not be tempted beyond what we are able. Yet, Scripture also tells us that it is impossible to live a life without sin, even after we become a child of God. How does this not contradict? Do we sin automatically without being tempted?

5) Recognizing the sin in myself, even with Christ present in my heart, is so discouraging that I want to give up. I cannot make myself any better and I recognize my own apathy in my disgusting filth. I obviously need grace. But how do I gain the motivation to stop myself from sinning if there is no hope on the horizon that one day, in this life, I will reach the goal of never committing another sin? Why not hope instead for the day that I die, because only in death will I reach the goal of being fully united with God and finding true fulfillment. If I have this mindset, then it is a curse to be young.

6) For so long my Christian walk has been characterized by attempting to please God by following Him and doing the things that He has asked. (i.e., not sinning and surrendering myself and my wishes and desires to Him.) The guilt that I feel from sinning mainly stems from realizing how hypocritical I am. I say that I love God and yet I sin, therefore how can I love God? Or, since love is an action, can I love God in one moment and then cease to love Him the next? In that case, love would be staggered and it would change from moment to moment, much like a strobe light that blinks in and out. This is nothing like God's love, which is fluid and never changes. If my love is strobe light love, than can it be called love at all?

7) The purest form of love is selfless love. God's love is selfless. But, how can it be selfless if everything He has done for us always gives Him pleasure? Even dying on the cross gave Him pleasure in the end, because we, who were created to worship Him and praise Him, were reunited with Him through the cross. The ultimate test of selfless love would be to perform what Paul insisted he was ready to do: give up his salvation and go to hell for someone else. Nothing would be gained in the end for Paul and everything would be gained for the undeserving object of his love.

8) The strong Christians that I know in my life and look up to seem to have it all together. Rarely do I ever catch them in a sin. Leaders in the church especially are to live pure lives. If there is such a strong correlation between perfection and a life that is pleasing to God, then how does an attempt at perfection not lead to pleasing God? Attempting perfection leads to pride, and pride does not please the Lord. So, is a pure life merely a byproduct of drawing near to God? How does one still maintain a strong focus on Jesus while not getting distracted at the purity in their lives? (Does this make any sense? I'm having trouble dictating my thoughts.)

The Christian life seems so impossible. Even with the Holy Spirit inside me, I always screw up. If the goal of the Christian life is something that cannot be attained, then what is the use of living on earth at all?

How can I love a God that I barely know? There are so many aspects to God that I do not understand and only know the tiniest particle of.

Disclaimer:
I am not renouncing my Christian faith. I don't want anyone to misinterpret this post in that way. I am confident that if God is God, He will be able to provide me with answers for every single one of these questions. I'm going to continue to work through them and post my thoughts. I'm also not looking for Sunday school answers here. (i.e., Because God said so, this is.) This is me wrestling with my Christian faith and for once, taking off the blinders that I have seen myself through. I am messed up and sinful and hopeless-- on my own.



URForgiven -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/24/2008 9:34:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ktbeth22
The Christian life seems so impossible. Even with the Holy Spirit inside me, I always screw up. If the goal of the Christian life is something that cannot be attained, then what is the use of living on earth at all?


The Christian life doesn't just seem impossible, it is impossible...for us. What you are experiencing is what all who try to live the Christian life eventually end up experiencing...a path littered with failures and frustrations.

We all fail. And we will all continue to have failures as long as we are in this earthen vessel. Thank God that there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The good news is that God never meant for you to live the Christian life through human effort. It does not rest on your shoulders. God sent His Son to live His life through you. As you abide in Him, He lives the life that we cannot.

The Christian life is Christ, and only He can live it. Trust and depend in Him, and you will experience the impossible becoming the possible! Bless you.

Peace



slimon11 -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/24/2008 1:15:07 PM)

Good Morning Ktbeth22, I have the tendency to get caught up in perfectionism from time to time. When I see myself starting to head that direction, something that helps me is too simplify my thoughts. I have been a Christian for about 4 years; I understand your desire to want to learn everything you can about God. I’ve spent countless hours in bible studies over the past few years. I have spent more time in the moral and ethics section here, than is probably good for me.[:)] I am not saying it is bad to learn but, I find that sometimes I am doing too much thinking!

As you know, it can be a totally exhausting trying to figure out what is sin, what is not sin, what teachers have unbiblical teachings, how to handle our relationships with others,etc. It is tough stuff and, the truth is we have failed big time and, are going to fail again big time in all these areas. We can beat ourselves up but, that is not what God wants. He loves us just as we are, and His will will prevail even if we mess up, He is bigger than our mess ups.

Sometimes, I find it beneficial to close my bible for a while, (I know some will probably not agree with me here). I may instead spend my quite times with God learning to play praise songs on the piano, or spend time talking to Him while gardening…I find doing this clears my head from too much theology. I think we can never go wrong when we express His love, just by doing simple things like being kind and encouraging others. I sometimes find it is best when I don’t make it more complicated than that.

When I put my focus on love: His love for me and others, all the perfectionism in me quickly disappears leaving me with such a freedom that only His unconditional love can bring. Unconditional love like His is sometimes hard to grasp. Sometimes we need to stop trying to understand it and, just accept it! He wants to give us beauty for all our ashes! If we don’t accept His offer too fill us with His beauty, then it is on us not Him.

Hope you have a good day.



GHitch -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/25/2008 3:26:24 PM)

quote:

Scripture also tells us that it is impossible to live a life without sin, even after we become a child of God
Just where does scripture state this? Nowhere. It everywhere assumes that either we have the ability to obey or we will be aided in our attempts to obey.

You ought to read the 1st ep. of John thoroughly.

Your concept of sin needs some upgrading imo. Sin is of the heart. It is a question of ultimate intentions, not of mere outward action and intrusive, unwanted thoughts or feelings.
Sin is transgression of the law of love - in the individual sense - and the overall selfishness of the heart in the general sense or the state of being in selfishness as one's primary motive in life.

So a lot of Xians who think they have sinned in one thing or another actually have not. They've only been tempted. Or they've only had feelings without intent. Feelings generally come from thoughts.

So overall, true Xians sin a lot less than they tend to think. As long as the heart choice is good willing towards God and others, even if an outward action was 'wrong' it isn't the same at all as when the outward action stemmed from a selfish motive. Mistakes are not sin. Temptations are not sin.

Do not be too scrupulously over conscious of everything you do - always asking whether it was sinful or not. Just commit to him as your ultimate reason for living and live in peace. The Holy Spirit is big enough to let you know when you've truly done wrong and need to repent and possibly make restitution. Don't go looking for sin in yourself all the time, the devil will make sure you find it and give you no peace.

quote:

For example, if I pray for the Lord to give me a husband and when He answers it, I become more materialistically oriented in order to please my husband, how is this good?
There is nothing wrong with seeking things for yourself. It is even commanded in scripture. What is wrong is seeking things more than the giver. You don't have to become more materialist just because you get married. It is not good for man to be alone - the whole thing was his idea! And if it is not good for man to be alone it is certainly not good for woman, made for man, to be alone - can't have one without the other.

There are tons of scriptures wherein God tells us to ask good things of him for our own hearts desire (Ps 20 for example). He promises crowns and life and authority etc., to those who love him and ultimately overcome - so asking for things is not wrong or selfish unless the ultimate motive of the heart is wrong - ie entirely self-centered or for reasons forbidden by God.

God isn't self centered. He's not sitting around vainly hoping to be praised all the time and disappointed if we don't stop and do a little worship jig every 5 seconds.
Praise without love and admiration is useless. Yet he is worthy of the utmost love and adoration - that's part of real praise. It's a question of worth, of values, of right relation of things.
And all he wants back from us for all the good he gives or takes or whatever he decides (it's always for our good and that of others around us) is thanksgiving and love because indeed, that is what is best in light of the value of things and their relation to him.

The sacrifice of the cross did not gain to God the actual salvation of every soul as it should, only the purchase & possibility of salvation for every soul plus the actual salvation of myriads of souls who've obeyed the gospel. There's still a lot of lost souls in spite of an infinitely valuable sacrifice. Indeed the great majority of mankind reject him.
quote:

I cannot make myself any better and I recognize my own apathy in my disgusting filth. I obviously need grace. But how do I gain the motivation to stop myself from sinning if there is no hope on the horizon that one day, in this life, I will reach the goal of never committing another sin?
Worship is the tool by which God communicates his own goodness to our hearts. Stop looking at self and just worship whether you understand it or not. Keep an attitude of worship and you will not sin all the time - at least no deliberate conscious sin. And even if you do there is forgiveness. Read 1 john and you'll see how much of this works out.
The doctrine that says it is impossible to live without sinning all the time in this life is a doctrine of devils. No where to be found in scripture, and everywhere contradicted.

Gal 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will never fulfill the desires of the flesh. ISV So how to walk by the Spirit? Walk in worship, keep a worshiping attitude, stay in the Word, memorize it - Psa 119:9 "How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word."
And continuously pray, "With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!" Pray the Word.

To say one can never, in this life, live without sin in the heart is to say that blood of Christ, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit together are incapable of genuinely saving anyone. "You shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sin" - not in their sin, from it. And, 1Jn 1:7 "But if we live in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, cleanses us from all sin." From it's guilt and power in this life and from it's very existence in the next.
Also; 1Jn 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome." And what are his commandments? Just to love God and others. Stop concentrating on sin and start concentrating on willing the good of others as best you know. Just focus on love and trust him to handle the rest.

It is his life in you that, like Bunyan's secret oil giver, keeps the righteous fire alive. When you start focusing too much on yourself you're falling into the trap of the law - salvation by effort. Focus on him and loving people around to the best of your knowledge.

He never said to love him with all the heart of an angel or cherub, but just with your own little heart. And that heart is capable of more loving the more it gets to know him - worship and the Word is where he reveals and communicates himself.

quote:

I am messed up and sinful and hopeless-- on my own.
Welcome to the club... The club every real saint that ever lived belonged to, and knew it.
Try reading John Bunyan's, Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners (a great biographical account of one historic Xian's struggles with sin and grace), and maybe Pilgrims Progress - 2 books that have helped struggling Xians for 400 years.

Peace



LBolt -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/26/2008 8:31:51 PM)

quote:

Sin is transgression of the law of love


According to the Bible, in I John sin is transgression of the law or Torah. Period.

Truthfully while in this flesh we are going to fail. We must remember that if Yah loved us will we were in our sin, how much more now that we have been washed in the blood and made a new creation? What loving father would punish their child for not being perfect? That gives you more grounds to love that child all the more and mature them in the area weak in. The perfection Yah is looking is maturity not sinless perfection if you will. If anyone is sinless on this planet... and tells me they are, I'll call them a liar to their face. Or I'll type they are a liar. LOL!

When you realize that we are in a process, that we are going from faith to faith and glory to glory. It's a process and the Potter is making a master piece on the wheel. Be encouraged, be patient... He didn't make planet in 1 day, was a process, so are you and me.

BTW, the commandments that we are to keep are the Torah... which the greatest of them is to love God and man. Ths was a very common teaching in Torah, it's in Lev. 19 and the early chapters in Deut. But this is not the discussion.[;)]



soma77 -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/28/2008 9:36:39 PM)

I feel it is love that blots out sin and knows no fear so there is nothing else a man can do that is as beneficial as loving everything and everyone. When this happens, it is no longer we who love, but Christ that loves through us, it is no longer our bodies that live, but Christ consciousness that lives within us. This is the discovery of our true selves in Christ consciousness. Jesus died for us and reconciled us to his Father so Christ consciousness could live in us and unify us with God. Christ consciousness purifies the image of God in our minds, cures our spiritual blindness and opens our consciousness to the unity of all things. It takes possession of our wills so we no longer remain captive to our desires, passions and compulsions. Christ consciousness makes us capable of acting in the productive tranquility of love and spiritual freedom. By teaching us love Jesus perfects our minds in the likeness of God's pure consciousness by conforming us to Christ consciousness. This is more than the imitation of his virtues, but a union of consciousness that makes us the individuals, God intends us to be. To enter into this consciousness we must identify with Christ, the Father and all of his creation in one pure consciousness.



FuturePriest -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/30/2008 8:02:08 PM)

quote:

I am commanded to love the Lord with all of my heart and mind, but how can I say that I love Him if I disobey and am prone to sin all the time?


Sin is a human thing. We must realize that it is something God knows we will do. Everyone sins, and God knows that. That's why He sent Jesus the Christ. So that it didn't matter if we were absolutely perfect (which no one but He is.) all we have to dois belive in Jesus and we will be saved.
All God wants from us is a godly lifestyle and a people made in His image. He knows that we aren't perfect and that we will lose faith sometimes. But, in my opinion, the only reason we lose faith is because we can't fully understand God's will, or understand it in a differend meaning. Now, don't feel compelled, don't even try to understand God's power and thought.
"For the love of God which passes all understanding..."
So,at the times when we don't understand,just believ. Take that leap of faith, call out to Him, like Peter did on the Sea of Galilee. Just trust that he will be there to catch you and guide you along the way to the One.
God knows that we will sin -as I said earlier, it is a human thing, and no matter how hard we try not too, we'll still slip up - but he doesn't care (Well, not as much...) if we just believe in his Son who came to earth to save sinners, Christians included.
"All who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

In closing...It's true you are commanded to love the Lord withall your heart and all your soul and all your mind, and you can still do that, you just have to believe in your heart and share with your mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord and that you Love Him, even if your mind slips up sometimes. All you have to do is call to Jesus, believe, trust that He will save you...grab hold of His outstretched hand and he will rescue you,nomatter your sin. Just believe.



FuturePriest -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/30/2008 8:12:45 PM)

quote:

For example, if I pray for the Lord to give me a husband and when He answers it, I become more materialistically oriented in order to please my husband, how is this good? I have seen it so many times in my Christian friends who are consumed with love for one another. They get married and then become content in their happiness, no longer seeing a need to pursue after God's heart fully.


In this situation, you must determine who is to reign in your heart. Yourself and your needs or God and His will?
Now, this is a big issue and it's one that I struggle with sometimes too. Sometimes, it's a very fuzzy area. You might even think you're doing God's will when really it turns out to be your own.
More specifically, in this marriage instance:
Marriage is a sacred union. It's a bond between two people and their God. You must realize in a marriage that you're not only devoting yourself to each other and that it's not simply a legal proceeding to be done away with later. Marriage is an eternal bond where each person devotes themselves to God and their partner.
If you try to please your husband, in this case, you must also think,"Is this pleasing to my God - my other life partner?"
Only then, will it work out.
So, if by pleasing your husband, you are not pleasing your God also, then you are only living up to half of your wedding vows.
Once again, it comes back to who will ultimately reign in your heart?
You or God?
This is a personal question that takes a lot of time to think on and figure out. Most of us are still probably thinking about it. So,don't hurridley decide anything. Wait. Think. Pray. and then ask yourself...
Who reigns? Me or Him?

Hope these two posts help answer some questions, or at least get you thinking a little more.

God Bless,
FuturePriest



slimon11 -> RE: struggles with perfectionism, sin, and love (8/31/2008 1:12:18 AM)

How are you doing KtBeth22? Are you feeling better this weekend?



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