What Most CCM is Lacking (Full Version)

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humbleinspirit -> What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 3:45:16 PM)

Other instruments! The vast majority of CCM has the electric guitar, and drums, but hardly any other instrument. This is one of reasons why CCM is less appealing than other types of music. Do you agree or disagree?



rgod -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 4:52:07 PM)

I think I'll have to disagree with you here, although you raise a very interesting point. I like a lot of Christian music, but sometimes find it to be artistically quite uninteresting. I think that at lot of the really inspired stuff is gets filtered out somehow - although some really good music remains. I'd love to see more different types of Christian music. We have CCM - which for the most part to me sounds like a cross between pop and rock (with some country thrown in for good measure) and maybe some adult contemporary - easy listening type of music. We have Gospel, which we segregate by race/culture (White Southern and Black - and both of those are traditional or contemporary). And of course we have rap ("urban"), a smattering of jazz, and praise and worship. There is some cross pollination between genres though with Praise and Worship music. I'm not sure what is beyond those subgenres- I'd love to hear from others who might have more information.

I think that CCM, like many other genres has its own set of instruments, favorite chords, hooks, etc. What is jazz without a bass or a drum? What is rock without a guitar? What is gospel without a singer who twists and turns the notes and melody into new forms? While I like some CCM, I can't listen to it for long because I find a lot of it to be somewhat repetitive. But I can say that for just about any other type of music that I listen to as well - Christian or not.

I think a lot of Christian art (music, writing, etc.) as a whole tends to be very tame because the record/publishing companies tend to be afraid to take risks. Not only in the form/structure, but also in the content. I was talking about this with a group of artists the other day - about Christian artists who are putting romantic love songs on their albums - and about how it is gaining acceptance. I remember when people didn't like CeCe Winans because she didn't say "Jesus" in every single song. I remember when people didn't like Kirk Franklin because he seemed to be too secular. I remember when people didn't like Amy Grant when she sang pop.

Artists by nature I think, tend to want to push against boundaries - and it is that pushing that creates new things. But ... if you push and that means that you aren't heard ... well - I'm not sure how conducive that is to creativity. So you push within the boundaries and eventually everything ends up sounding pretty much the same. But every so often someone pushes in exactly the right way and something new is birthed. And that is cool! But I don't think this is limited to the Christian industry - I think that there is something about corporate structures that often discourage that. I think that they are afraid of offending people (losing sales), or not having a niche where it can sell. Sadly, it seems like growth and exploration only seems to happen when it has happened in the secular market first or by an independent label (like what Vineyard did in the 70s and 80s).



iluvatar -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 7:04:16 PM)

There are no acoustic guitars, bass guitars, piano, or synths in CCM? That group of instruments is the basis for most of the music being made in this country today.

The White Stripes have only and electric guitar and a set of drums, yet they sound nothing like standard CCM. It's not necessarily what you've got. It's how you use it.

-Dan.



NotDoneYet -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 8:44:01 PM)

Much of CCM is ill-arranged and produced. It's the difference between oh, let's say Queen's Night at the Opera and a garage band demo.
Now, before I get totally run-over and blasted...let me say that there are some bands who are awesome...Third Day, Petra, maybe Mercy Me.
BUT...if I were to compare Metallica's Black Album to Skillet, well...Metallica would win hands-down. The musicianship, the production, far superior.
Maybe that's why I don't listen to a lot of CCM...I just can't stand the assault on my ears.
Oh...and so much of it is so tame, bubble-gum sounding...ICK. Give me something with an edge.



ChiefWannahakaloogie -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 9:47:43 PM)

quote:

Other instruments!

i can rock out on a kazoo [&:]



humbleinspirit -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 9:52:03 PM)

I am gonna do some research on this and let you know my findings.



ObviousLee -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 10:46:49 PM)

I think there's numerous reasons for it's lack of appeal. For one, it's very Americanized. So even CCM or praise music produced in other countries still have that Ameicanized sound. In contrast, when someone like Paul Horn records an album in the Taj Mahal, or Ry Cooder records roots music from overseas, there's a sense of intrique. I don't know of any CCM artists who explore early Hebrew roots, and incorporate it into their music. Perhaps if there was more of an exploration of ancient Hebrew or Assyrian music, and it was incorporated into CCM, there would be that similar freshness.



humbleinspirit -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/23/2008 11:05:23 PM)

Ok, I just finished listening to this weeks Top 10 CCM songs according to Radio and Records.

Most had electric guitars in them, with a couple having acoustic guitar instead. Most had drums and some had piano also. Only 2 would be considered "light" and only one was R&B influenced. Which btw I thought was so good that I just might buy the CD!

Now here is a link to the Top 10 CHR/Top 10 songs of the week. Most of those are Rhythmic oriented. Do you see the disparity here?



existential -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/24/2008 10:58:50 AM)

I almost hate to disagree w/rgod, but jazz does not need bass or drums to work! There are many piano, acoustic and electric guitar, bass, flute, sax, trumpet, trombone, (any instument you can dream up) that have been used solo on songs and whole albums.

The Christian culture is just too conservative to let creation happen as instructed in Psalm 150. It's like we are afraid to praise God in any progressive way, so we back off in hopes that He will accept our offerings of conservative christian music (CCM)

Boy I sure wish there would be a revival in music (awakening). I just go on listening to anything with good chord progressions, be it rock, jazz, oldies, alternative, etc..

What most CCM is lacking is creativity and people who are not hung-up on unfamiliar music. I thinks that the next life will be full of Psalm 150, so why not let 'er rip now?????



rgod -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/24/2008 11:03:37 AM)

quote:

I almost hate to disagree w/rgod, but jazz does not need bass or drums to work! There are many piano, acoustic and electric guitar, bass, flute, sax, trumpet, trombone, (any instument you can dream up) that have been used solo on songs and whole albums.


Good point - I wasn't thinking broadly enough!



freakofnature -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/24/2008 12:53:54 PM)

I think the challenge for most "artist" in the Christian community is that the songs are written in a message first format. I am trying to google some sales figures but my guess is that CCM still sells relatively well and as long as people are buying it then there is no need to change it, in other words "if it isn't broke, don't fix it!" I mean I think we need to face the fact that there are a lot of the Christian community who choose to purchase the CCM market because they may or may not have discernible musical taste and because the CCM makes them emotional like the "I can only imagine" song, it is an emotional song, so because it makes you cry, then it must be good. It is somewhat difficult to explain my thoughts on this but, I again re-iterate that CCM sells because Christians are buying it. Free market, as long as there is a demand, there will be a product. I think in this case, it comes down to educating your children on good artistic expressions and change the market demand. Jus' sayin'



rgod -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/24/2008 5:28:07 PM)

I think there is something to what FreakofNature is saying. I don't think that most people who listen to CCM care a whole lot about whether a song is unique, the arrangement, orchestration. I think that most people like songs that express how they feel but is still somewhat familiar. I think that is the case for music in general. I don't think that most people really like things that are too different - although younger people and artists tend to be more open. (I wonder how many younger people really and truly listen to CCM?) In any case, maybe that isn't such a bad thing? If it ministers to people spiritually, helps people through a rough time, or helps them to worship God, then so be it.

What I would like to see however, is more attention given to Christian artists who are trying something new - and not just a rehash of what is in current CCM (or gospel or whatever) or what is in popular culture. So many popular CCM artists are truly gifted and I wouldn't be surprised if God is giving them music that doesn't fit existing genres, make the charts or appear on their albums. And there are millions - all around the world that are making music for the Lord that is also artistically excellent.

Are there indie Christian artists or labels that turn out people who are like this? If you know of one - let me know!



Rufas2000 -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/24/2008 9:30:57 PM)

quote:

What I would like to see however, is more attention given to Christian artists who are trying something new - and not just a rehash of what is in current CCM (or gospel or whatever) or what is in popular culture.


Problem is that there is no financial motivation for anyone who could afford it to do so.

What you could do is set up a Project Playlist or similar playlist (where it links to sites with music, it works like an Ipod playlist). Then search for the unique CCM music you think deserves more exposure. Add it to your playlist. Project Playlist makes it easy to do. Then link to the playlist using your Crosswalk signature. I did the same and had my sig link to my MySpace (and will go back to it since my personal thread gathered no interest). Also note that if you have a My Space you can add your playlist right to your My Space.

I add several Christian songs to my playlist, many of which I wouldn't purchase the CD myself but I try to do what I can to introduce new artists that I think may be of interest to others, especially Christian ones.

As one would expect the web address is www.projectplaylist.com. There are other sites that do the same thing. I'm discussing Project Playlist because I know it worked for me. Ease of use and huge selection of songs. There are others specifically Christian as well. One of those may serve your needs better.

Not only does it help expose new or unknown artists it also is fairly fun to be able to broadcast what amounts to your own radio station. BTW: its free.

Just a suggestion.



rgod -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/24/2008 10:53:52 PM)

Wow, I think I'm going to try this - thanks Rufas! I've never heard of this - so this should be fun to check out.



iluvatar -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/24/2008 11:59:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

quote:

What I would like to see however, is more attention given to Christian artists who are trying something new - and not just a rehash of what is in current CCM (or gospel or whatever) or what is in popular culture.


Problem is that there is no financial motivation for anyone who could afford it to do so.


I don't really get how any unsigned/indie Christian bands make a living. The vast majority of secular bands feed themselves by playing in bars which, in turn, make their money selling alcohol. How do you make money playing churches? I guess if you're a typical vanilla CCM "artist," I can kind of see it - being a hired worship leader. Beyond that...?

Not to get too OT, but I was just realizing again today how boring most modern churches look. I get a lot of pro audio trade publications and church production is a large segment of the business. Every month, there are loads of write-up of new multi-million dollar installs going in w/ all sorts of crazy equipment that would be great to work on every week. But man - everything is so bland. I don't care if you've got three line array hangs, a $75K digital console, and a state-of-the-art lighting rig - your room is still boring, stale, and fake. People want a rock-and-roll quality experience, but with greige wall-to-wall carpeting and pastel purple and blue lights. It's like Celine Dion playing a really big doctor's office.

As I'm sure you can tell, I should have gone to bed a while ago...

-Dan.



Rufas2000 -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/25/2008 6:21:48 AM)

quote:

How do you make money playing churches?


Love offerings. But churches probably book very conservatively and focus on the mainstream.

As far as churches being too bland I suppose they have to consider that the venue is going to be used for more than rock shows. What looks good for a rock show may be out of place for a wedding or typical service.



mapachito13 -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/25/2008 8:25:45 AM)

I think that the industry (as a whole) lacks the courage to step out of its comfort zone sometimes. I guess that's why I have been always drawn to the harder edged CCM fare because those artists go more out there. They aren't afraid to chllenge their listeners with their content or musical style.

Using an example to make my point about how a CCM band must stay within the box; a band uses a sitar in its music and has an "Indian" sound. The labels would be afraid that this band will be associated with Hinduism and be rejected for not being Christian enough. Christians will say because of that association it is pagan and that the music puts you into some "un-Christian" (translate as demonic) trance and would encourage Christians to perform Trancendental Meditation or other silly claims irregardless of the JPM rating of the songs. This limits the band's intrumental choices to "western" instruments so back to the formula they go.

Most of the older bands I've heard were just rock 'n' roll with a Christian message. Some of the newer ones are IMO getting better musically but very few groups in CCM can be considered as starting something new; most are mimicing secular bands or sounds that are already out there.

With the bands and their labels "looking for a hit" with every album there is a tendency to stick with the tried and true formula. I guess this may have to do with the fact that CCM labels have less money to try out and take a chance on music outside the box.

One of the most original sounding groups the jazz-rap Beanbag may have had better life in a secular market. They are the first band that comes to mind with a ground breaking sound. Project 86 was another although their last album mimiced some gothic bands from the 80's-90's.

I guess the trouble with Christians sometimes is that there can be a set box of what is "supposed to be" and everything outside the box is to be rejected as bad. With music, I think it has to be more experimental.



DaveW -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/26/2008 12:41:50 PM)

The pop music culture here in the US is very conservative. While the 50s and 60s may have been politically conservative, (and perhaps as a reaction to that) pop music was not.

In the 40s there was classical, big band and other jazz genres, blues and country/folk. Along comes the 50s and the blues and country people get together and produce a whole new genre - rock & roll. By the late 60s (just over 10 years later) we have folk-rock, pop ballads, acid rock, soul music, proto-metal, proto-punk, the beginnings of progressive and arena rock. All that in less than 15 years. There are even some proto-rap pieces being done in concert but not recorded yet. The earliest rap recording I know of was in 1972.

So what have we done in the last 35 years? A whole lot of nothing. We have played around inside those genres, but have not come up with anything nearly as ground breaking as what happened then. One can argue that the above innovations were technologically driven but the invention of the electric guitar. But if that is so, why has not the invention of synthesizers, effects pedals and computer generated music made gains of equal magnitude?

CCM sufferes from the same lack of innovation as the rest of american music.



DaveW -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/26/2008 12:57:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

Using an example to make my point about how a CCM band must stay within the box; a band uses a sitar in its music and has an "Indian" sound. The labels would be afraid that this band will be associated with Hinduism and be rejected for not being Christian enough. Christians will say because of that association it is pagan and that the music puts you into some "un-Christian" (translate as demonic) trance and would encourage Christians to perform Trancendental Meditation or other silly claims irregardless of the JPM rating of the songs. This limits the band's intrumental choices to "western" instruments so back to the formula they go.
There was a band that recorded in the early 70s on Maranatha called Phoenix Sunshine. The title song from their album Exodus included the Pitu Guli folk orchestra, with several middle eastern wind and percussion instruments.

No one dares do anything like that today.

I would love to hear sitar and the bowed instruements from China and Japan incorportated. If I ever do another recording, it will have viola da gamba on it and maybe a chinese ocarina.



mapachito13 -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/26/2008 3:23:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

Using an example to make my point about how a CCM band must stay within the box; a band uses a sitar in its music and has an "Indian" sound. The labels would be afraid that this band will be associated with Hinduism and be rejected for not being Christian enough. Christians will say because of that association it is pagan and that the music puts you into some "un-Christian" (translate as demonic) trance and would encourage Christians to perform Trancendental Meditation or other silly claims irregardless of the JPM rating of the songs. This limits the band's intrumental choices to "western" instruments so back to the formula they go.
There was a band that recorded in the early 70s on Maranatha called Phoenix Sunshine. The title song from their album Exodus included the Pitu Guli folk orchestra, with several middle eastern wind and percussion instruments.

No one dares do anything like that today.

I would love to hear sitar and the bowed instruements from China and Japan incorportated. If I ever do another recording, it will have viola da gamba on it and maybe a chinese ocarina.


And that's the type of thinking that should be encouraged to keep it fresh but too many Christian artists want the same old same old. Let us know if you do record DaveW. I, for one, would love to give it a listen!



uncabeeil -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/26/2008 3:32:48 PM)

Caedmon's Call's "Share the Well" cd uses a lot of eastern sounds and musicians. But, like Dave said, that's a rarity. I don't think it's the musicians as much as the labels. Too scared they'll lose a few bucks to take a chance.



mapachito13 -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/26/2008 6:25:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uncabeeil

Caedmon's Call's "Share the Well" cd uses a lot of eastern sounds and musicians. But, like Dave said, that's a rarity. I don't think it's the musicians as much as the labels. Too scared they'll lose a few bucks to take a chance.


Gave that a listen. It sounds like they visited or were visiting India when they recorded that one! I liked it!



Stratplayer -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/26/2008 9:36:19 PM)

I think that most people who listen to music are not truly music lovers and could care less aout the level of musicianship or the amount of creative thought that goes into creating a musical arrangement. They cold care less if a a bassline is played by a bass player or a MIDI file; music today is not made for musicians. Music is like a drug to some and all they want to do is get a fix. A while back, I read an article about how music is recorded today and how many of these techniqes actually loose some of the subtle dynamics that were part of the artist's vision; they actually record at very high levels so they can capture your attention (and it also is supposed to sound better on playback devices such as iPods that tend to use small headphones). It tells me that people are not really listening to music; they want something quick that will pick them up and get them moving or feeling a certain way. Since the emphasis is on loudnes and getting the listener to feel a ceratin way, theyre is a widespread lack of creativity across the board since artistry has become something of an afterthought and this is what most CCM lacks. Everything is presented in a neat package that is more or less guaranteed to produce a financial return.



freakofnature -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/27/2008 8:30:28 AM)

quote:

mapachito13
quote:

ORIGINAL: uncabeeil

Caedmon's Call's "Share the Well" cd uses a lot of eastern sounds and musicians. But, like Dave said, that's a rarity. I don't think it's the musicians as much as the labels. Too scared they'll lose a few bucks to take a chance.

Gave that a listen. It sounds like they visited or were visiting India when they recorded that one! I liked it!


They were actually doing missionary work at the time that CD was written. As it were, and as BIG a fan of Caedmon's Call. that I am, that is probably my least favorite work by them. Not at all because of the Eastern Influences but in general the writing. Although on that CD my favorites are "International Love Song" "all I Need(I Did Not Catch Her Name)" and "Bombay Rain"



mapachito13 -> RE: What Most CCM is Lacking (8/27/2008 8:42:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freakofnature

quote:

mapachito13
quote:

ORIGINAL: uncabeeil

Caedmon's Call's "Share the Well" cd uses a lot of eastern sounds and musicians. But, like Dave said, that's a rarity. I don't think it's the musicians as much as the labels. Too scared they'll lose a few bucks to take a chance.

Gave that a listen. It sounds like they visited or were visiting India when they recorded that one! I liked it!


They were actually doing missionary work at the time that CD was written. As it were, and as BIG a fan of Caedmon's Call. that I am, that is probably my least favorite work by them. Not at all because of the Eastern Influences but in general the writing. Although on that CD my favorites are "International Love Song" "all I Need(I Did Not Catch Her Name)" and "Bombay Rain"


I was impressed to see the amount of their work I can listen to on Napster. I'll have to give those other two a listen.



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