quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

If we do nothing on our own, then why are we held accountable for our actions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

Carico, look up the word "choice" and all of it's tenses in the KJV Bible, and tell me how many hits you get.

God's Word is pointless if God forces us to do everything He wishes. What is the point of even creating us in the first place? To claim to everyone (who did not exist before He created them) how powerful He is, to go on a ego trip to show all things how amazing He is and how worthless everything else is? This is hardly the God that He claims to be, my friend. And I know one thing...this is not the god I serve, but perhaps it is the one you do. Personally, I worship a God who asks us to "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve." He gives you the choice to serve Him or man, and He gave you the capability of choosing either one. Enjoy it and thank God for it!

quote:

And that's why the bible says that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but God against Satan.

quote:

So people who believe in free will can't at the same time believe that Satan deceives.

quote:

And the bible is about God's glory not ours.

quote:

A) we were born guilty and we have to deal with it just as a person with a birth defect has to deal with his disability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

quote:

And that's why the bible says that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but God against Satan.

Fisrt off, how could OUR struggle be God vs Satan? That would be HIS struggle, not ours! This makes no sense. Regardless, you are wrong. God does not struggle against Satan my friend, and that is not how the verse goes.

"Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Our struggle is exactly that - OURS! Yes, we will not prevail against Satan without God's power, but He does not force you to make the right choice! In the next verse, it commands us to take up the whole armor of God "that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." Just thank God that He will streghten you to make the right choice, to win the battle, to fight the good fight. He asks YOU to choose Him, or choose death. It is YOUR choice, not His! What would even be the point of the verse (or the Bible for that matter) if He forces those whom He pleases to choose Him??? Explain that one!

quote:

So people who believe in free will can't at the same time believe that Satan deceives.

No, it's the other way around. People who don't believe in free-will can't at the same time believe Satan decieves. Why? Because God is forcing Satan to make the choice to decieve us. Which means God created sin. Which means God forces Satan to tempt us, which also means God temps us, which He promises us He can not do! Saying man has no choice is saying God is a LIAR! If you want to serve a god who lies to mankind, be my guest!

quote:

And the bible is about God's glory not ours.

The Bible is about making mankind accountable for THEIR choices, not God's forceful hand in our lives. He forces no one to choose Him. He has given you that choice. He did not create us as robots! Find that one in Scripture. He created Adam and Eve with a choice between choosing self, or choosing Him. He did not force them to make the wrong choice. Give me a break.

quote:

ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

quote:

A) we were born guilty and we have to deal with it just as a person with a birth defect has to deal with his disability.

Did you visit the "Sin Nature" thread that was up a few weeks ago? I don't believe you posted, but perhaps you lurked. I will ask you a question I asked an individual like yourself whom I was debating with. I must have asked it half a dozen times, and he refused to answer the question, and I know why. He knew the answer, and he did not like the answer, because he knew where it led. He knew it completely destroyed his self-willed (no pun intended) submission/humility in an area God does not require. He eventually left the thread, never to return, to avoid having to answer the question. But, you are a different individual, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Here is the question, with another added.

1. Are there things God CAN NOT do?

2. Are there things God WILL NOT do?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBibleTRUTH

There is a few things I want to state:

1) God cannot lie
2) He is incapable of doing evil
3) Once you get forgiven God is incapable of remembering your sins
4) He cannot tempt us
5) He cannot control us

Just like humans cannot fly, because it's not in our nature, God cannot do evil. God's very nature is that of healing, light, love, giving, peace, etc... he is incapable of doing things that are not in his nature. When we choose not to eat cookies, we can still and often do eat cookies. If God decides that he cannot do evil, then he cannot do evil. ANY negative thing does not come from God.

-----------------

We have free will. Look when it says we were chosen before the world began it means that he KNEW we would believe. If you were rolling two dice, and then God told you that you were going to roll a 6, he didn't grab the dice and force you to roll a six. Because of his foreknowledge he knew before hand that you would roll a 6. It's the same thing with how we were preplanned. God doesn't force anyone to do anything ever, he didn't force you to believe, he simply knew that you would. He saw your heart before the beginning of time, and because there are certain qualities than make people believers, he knew that you had those qualities and that you would believe. That's what it means to be preplanned or preordained.

Negatives come from two things:
1) The weakness of our flesh.
2) The devil and his abilities in the World that were given to him by Adam.

----- BUT -----

We are never to focus on those things at all.

Philippians 4:8
8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

The more you think about evil, and get into it, the worse off you are. You need to focus on the positives and the things of God. You need to think about evil as little as possible. It unfortunately has to be brought up sometimes, because we cannot be ignorant of his devices and a lack of knowledge destroys Christians. But you learn it, put it in the back of your mind, and focus on the great love of God.

Lastly, don't criticize people. People can only go by what they learned and it's very unloving to criticize and point out peoples mistakes. Just love them and teach them what God puts on your heart.

God bless you in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ

quote:

A) we were born guilty and we have to deal with it just as a person with a birth defect has to deal with his disability.

quote:

Because we have knowledge of God's law that we sin.

quote:

Because no one knows if he is being chosen so we are completely responsible for our actions, attitudes and beliefs.

quote:

20) And everything else.

quote:

So what is there that man does on his own? Nothing. Not a thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

Sorry, but God is capable of more than just foreknowledge. he is OMNIPOTENT as well as omniscient.

The best way to describe it is the analogy of parents and children. Parents create an environment in which their children "feel free" to make their own choices, when in reality the parents are creating the envorinment for their children to do so. The parent can change the child's options any time he wants to and so does God. Otherwise, God wouldn't be in control of anything, much less our lives. But he is the supreme ruler of the universe, so He is.

So if the parent grounds the child, the child's "options" decrease. He will simply respond to his least stressful option. If the pain of being grounded is greater in him than the pain of disobeying his parents, he will obey his parents. But if the pain of obeying his parents is stronger than the pain of being grounded, he will disobey his parents.

"A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." As Romans 6:15-23 tells us, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. A slave has no free choice or he wouldn't be a slave.

That's why the first step in AA is to acknowledge that we are powerless over our addiction (sins) and only God can restore us to health. No one can choose to get out of slavery of any kind. Only Jesus can free us so that we become slaves to righteousness.
But most people don't want to be ruled by a higher power any more than children want to be controlled by their parents. Humans like to think they run the universe just like children like to believe they are making their own choices. That's called rebelliousness and it comes from the sinful nature. But it isn't until children grow up that they look back and see that their parents were in control the whole time. And it's the same with born again Christians. Once we receive the Spirit, we realize that God was in control of our lives the whole time. If you don't see yourself as a slave, then you have not acknowledged your master.

quote:

Did you choose to be born? Did you choose the family in which you were born? Did you knit yourself in the womb? Did you choose yourself before the creation of the world? Did you choose for Satan to rule the earth? Did you choose the time when you were born? Did you choose the body in which you were created? Did you choose the circumstances that happened to you as a child? Do you choose the circumstances in the world? NO.

quote:

So you are 100% wrong. The bible is about God, not man.

quote:

we don't worship man, we worship God.

quote:

"God hardens whom he wants to harden." Since you don't believe that, then you don't believe that God is sovereign.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

Here's the bible according to every1needsgod:

The bible is about me and how good I am for making the right choice to follow God. Those other poor slobs who didn't choose God simply aren't as good as I am. They'll pay for their idiocy. But I wont.

So God is lucky to have people like me around. When I meet him, I bet he'll be so proud of me! I know that the bible says that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But the bible is simply wrong and I'm right. I have a right to boast because of my righteousness. God doesn't harden anyone, those people are just more wicked than I am.

Boy, I'm such a good person, that it can't get any better than this. If I'm tempted to sin, I don't turn to the cross because I have the free will to choose not to sin on my own. So there's no one to thank but myself for my goodness.

quote:


God Himself cannot lie. He also cannot commit evil Himself which is why He allows Satan to do that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

1) He creates and destroys
2) He leads us out of temptation
3) He delivers us from evil
5) He opens the eyes of the blind
6) he blinds those who claim to see
7) He saves us
8) He keeps us strong to the end
9) He punishes the wicked
10) He determines our steps (Pr. 16:9, Jeremiah 23:1)
11) He determines where we will live (Acts 17:26)
12) He comforts
13) He allows Satan to work havoc on the earth
14) He establishes who will be earthly authorities
15) He gives us faith
16) He chose the elect before we were born
17) He formed us in the womb
18) He changes hearts and minds
19) He causes us to follow His decrees and obey His laws (Ez. 36:27)
20) And everything else.

So what is there that man does on his own? Nothing. Not a thing. But because of human pride, human "reasoning" says; "Hey, I myself do things in the world". That's because "human wisdom" is about me. Spiritual wisdom is about God.

And that's why as 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

So God's sovereignty is foolishness to those without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only born again Christians understand God's sovereignty and will never try to take what is God's and claim it for ourselves. So if you claim to love Jesus, then remember His words in John 5:19, "The Son can do nothing by himself." And if our Lord can't, then we certainly can't.

quote:

That's why the first step in AA is to acknowledge that we are powerless over our addiction (sins) and only God can restore us to health. No one can choose to get out of slavery of any kind. Only Jesus can free us so that we become slaves to righteousness.

quote:

The parent can change the child's options any time he wants to and so does God. Otherwise, God wouldn't be in control of anything, much less our lives.

quote:

As for predestined, I believe ALL are predestined to be saved...however, not all choose to follow what God truly desires.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingGod

Carico, in the verse "our struggle is not against flesh and blood." This is Paul, a man, talking to other men. Therefore, "our" is not God, it is man.

As for predestined, I believe ALL are predestined to be saved...however, not all choose to follow what God truly desires. Some choose to throw away the free gift of salvation.

God is all-knowing. He knows the choice I'm going to make before I make it -but He doesn't control what decision I make. If I offer my son skittles and a hershey bar - he can choose either one - I won't force him to pick one or the other. Because I know him, I KNOW he will choose the skittles. He loves them. But he still has absolute freedom to choose the hershey bar. The difference between me and God in this example - God knows with no doubt which one I'll choose...one day my son may surprise me and choose the hershey bar.