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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/28/2008 2:28:07 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
This has nothing to do with God "showing" His love.His love is for always and for ever.However,once a soul has made it's home in hell,they will no longer feel the presence of God,or feel His love,but He does still love them.
This is based on romantic love. Biblical love is an action verb, not a state of being. Even when the english translations speak of being in his love, the intent is that we are interacting in a relationship that is exemplified by loving actions.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/28/2008 2:43:14 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
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Exactly, Bluethread! By definition, residents of hell are separated from God and His Love precisely because they can no longer be shown that Love.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/28/2008 3:20:07 PM
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yustme
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When I was cut off from my daughter for about a year,I could not express my love for her In any way.However not for even a second did I stop loving her.If I would never have seen her again,heard her voice,had no cantact of any kind,I would still love her deeply.I agree,she would not feel my love,but I would still love her.So does God.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/28/2008 3:43:35 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
When I was cut off from my daughter for about a year,I could not express my love for her In any way.However not for even a second did I stop loving her.If I would never have seen her again,heard her voice,had no cantact of any kind,I would still love her deeply.I agree,she would not feel my love,but I would still love her.So does God.
You may have had loving feelings toward your daughter and I have no doubt you would have done something for her if you could. However, your loving feelings did your daughter no good whatsoever at that time if you did not act on them. By the way, you could have loved your daughter by praying for her if nothing else.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/28/2008 4:09:18 PM
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yustme
Posts: 386
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
When I was cut off from my daughter for about a year,I could not express my love for her In any way.However not for even a second did I stop loving her.If I would never have seen her again,heard her voice,had no cantact of any kind,I would still love her deeply.I agree,she would not feel my love,but I would still love her.So does God.
You may have had loving feelings toward your daughter and I have no doubt you would have done something for her if you could. However, your loving feelings did your daughter no good whatsoever at that time if you did not act on them. By the way, you could have loved your daughter by praying for her if nothing else.
Oh I did and still do.I pray for all of my daughters every single day.
Do you understand what I mean that just because people make their home in hell and no longer have the presence of Jesus or His love,that doesn't mean Jesus stopped loving them?I can't believe He would ever stop loving anyone.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/28/2008 5:39:45 PM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
In case we all forgot, according to 1 John 4, God IS love. If that is the case, then it is impossible to be seperated from that Love. However, the Lake of Fire is not situated far off from God. There are several referrences in the Bible to the smoke of the Lake of Fire arising before God forver. If we truly believe that God is omnipresent, then it is theologically impossible to ever be seperated from Him. While this may be sound semantically and theologically, I ask one more time: "Just exactly how does God show His Love to an eternal resident of Hell?" If the eternally damned cannot recieve the Love of God, are they not separated from that Love?
NO. They seperated themselves. How are you not understanding this?
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/29/2008 8:56:29 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
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quote:
NO. They seperated themselves. How are you not understanding this? This has become a semantic issue, Thessa. I fully agree that residents of hell have separated themselves from from God and His Love. Nonetheless, they are now separated for eternity, regardless of the fact that God may keep loving them. In my puny human mind, however, I do not see how He can show Love to someone in Hell! But He is God and I am not, so far be it from me to presume His capabilities.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/29/2008 3:48:58 PM
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Bluethread
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To take this issue of Adonai loving those in "hell" takes us intyo the thread on the nature of the judgement. I personally do not believe in eturnal punishment but anialation in the fire of Adonai's wrath. burned in a moment as chaff. That said, one could say Adonai is showing love to those in Sheol, the grave, by defering judgement while they rest. However, I would say this is more a matter of self-love on Adonai's part, respecting the fact that He made man, even unregenerate man, in His own image.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/29/2008 7:30:18 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
NO. They seperated themselves. How are you not understanding this? This has become a semantic issue, Thessa. I fully agree that residents of hell have separated themselves from from God and His Love. Nonetheless, they are now separated for eternity, regardless of the fact that God may keep loving them. In my puny human mind, however, I do not see how He can show Love to someone in Hell! But He is God and I am not, so far be it from me to presume His capabilities.
This is the closest post to what I've been trying to say.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/29/2008 10:40:09 PM
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steve7150
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Why would any sane person choose hell or choose to separate themselves from God?
Obviously the great mass of humanity does not know God personally yet i doubt most unbelievers hate God as some Christians seem to believe.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/29/2008 10:52:12 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
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quote:
I personally do not believe in eturnal punishment but anialation in the fire of Adonai's wrath. burned in a moment as chaff. Just when I thought I could agree with you, Bluethread, (see post #27) you come up with this unbiblical opinion. Jesus quoted Isaiah 66:24 three times in Mark 9:42-48. Eternal punishment seems quite clear to Jesus and me!
quote:
That said, one could say Adonai is showing love to those in Sheol, the grave, by defering judgement while they rest. However, I would say this is more a matter of self-love on Adonai's part, respecting the fact that He made man, even unregenerate man, in His own image. I have no idea what you're talking about! Where in Scripture does it say Adonai loves Himself? Were Adam and Eve created "unregenerate"? How does deferring judgement by resting in Sheol show Adonai's Love?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/29/2008 11:09:12 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
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quote:
Why would any sane person choose hell or choose to separate themselves from God? It's called "self-centered carnality", steve7150, and it has nothing to do with anyone's sanity and everything to do with everyone's pride!
quote:
Obviously the great mass of humanity does not know God personally yet i doubt most unbelievers hate God as some Christians seem to believe. At least five times in the first three Gospels is recorded Jesus' statement that whoever is not for or with Him is thus against Him. It appears that a whole lot more unbelievers hate God than you think, steve7150!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/30/2008 4:17:52 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
NO. They seperated themselves. How are you not understanding this? This has become a semantic issue, Thessa. I fully agree that residents of hell have separated themselves from from God and His Love. Nonetheless, they are now separated for eternity, regardless of the fact that God may keep loving them. In my puny human mind, however, I do not see how He can show Love to someone in Hell! But He is God and I am not, so far be it from me to presume His capabilities.
I think - and forgive me if im wrong - but i think that u are just trying to proove Gods love isnt eternal.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/30/2008 5:53:31 AM
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LastofAll
Posts: 37
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“But whoso hath this world´s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?”
(I John.3:17)
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/30/2008 8:26:00 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
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quote:
I think - and forgive me if im wrong - but i think that u are just trying to proove Gods love isnt eternal. And how could finite man "prove" any of God's eternal attributes? Are you trying to prove that damnation is not eternal, Thessa?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/30/2008 11:32:00 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
Why would any sane person choose hell or choose to separate themselves from God?It's called "self-centered carnality", steve7150, and it has nothing to do with anyone's sanity and everything to do with everyone's pride!
So believers in Christ are not carnal but unbelievers are carnal and hate God? No in fact Paul had no difficulty in seeing carnality in Christians and in fact choosing eternity in hell would not be self centeredness it would be insanity. Self centeredness would be choosing to believe in Christ for the primary purpose of avoiding hell.
But the bible says it's the goodness of God that brings men to repentence and that's evident through Jesus.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/30/2008 11:37:20 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
At least five times in the first three Gospels is recorded Jesus' statement that whoever is not for or with Him is thus against Him. It appears that a whole lot more unbelievers hate God than you think, steve7150!
Some unbelievers hate God but most don't truly know God like devout folks of other faiths who happened to not be brought up in a Christian home. I've been a believer for six years but prior to six years ago i did'nt hate God, i just did'nt know God.
But according to Isaiah there shall come a day when everyone shall know God from the greatest to the least.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/30/2008 1:01:48 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
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quote:
So believers in Christ are not carnal but unbelievers are carnal and hate God? At least some Believers in Christ are not carnal and do love God with all their being. All unbelievers are carnal and thus do not obey the Two Greatest Commands.
quote:
I've been a believer for six years but prior to six years ago i did'nt hate God, i just did'nt know God. If someone is not for God, they are against Him. What does that mean to you, steve7150?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 6:18:59 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I think - and forgive me if im wrong - but i think that u are just trying to proove Gods love isnt eternal. And how could finite man "prove" any of God's eternal attributes? Are you trying to prove that damnation is not eternal, Thessa?
I think you are not only misunderstanding the bible and Gods word, but me and alot of others on here.
Of course damnation is eternal. Thats very obvious. Its in the bible it is. Its very clear.
But the ones that go there are seperated from God because they wanted to be.
Its very simple. You are just trying to proove God dosent love everyone and you are fighting a losing battle for no reason at all.
Lemme put it a little more simple maybe...
Lets say a person died tonight and they didnt believe in God. They totally rejected Gods love. So they go to hell.
If a person dies tonight that does believe in God and accepts Gods love then they go to Heaven.
Any questions? lol
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 7:22:39 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
While this may be sound semantically and theologically, I ask one more time: "Just exactly how does God show His Love to an eternal resident of Hell?" If the eternally damned cannot recieve the Love of God, are they not separated from that Love? No. Just so that everyone following this thread is forewarned, my response is mostly experimental theology for me. This is something more that I am playing around with than making a hard stand on. I am going to guarantee that someone is going to be offended by my answer. Now that this done, away we go.
God is a consuming Fire. In Revelation 20-21, John also sees the Saints of God standing on a sea of Glass mingled with Fire. In Daniel, we see a river of Fire proceeding from the throne of God. Song of Solomon 8 declares that love is "a most vehement flame." My bold, brash statement is that the fire of the Lake of Fire IS God's Love. It is precisely the Love of God that is torturing those in the Lake of Fire.
Consider this. How uncomfortable is it to be stuck in the room with someone that you seriously dislike? Now, imagine being stuck in a room with someone you seriously dislike that also has a major infatuation with you. Imagine how torturous that is for you with a human... Now compare that to an infinite God who is burning with passion for you that you also happen to hate with everything inside of you... and you can't get away from Him no matter what. Yes, I am saying that the Lake of Fire is the very Love and Presence of God.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 8:28:59 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
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quote:
I think you are not only misunderstanding the bible and Gods word, but me and alot of others on here. I'm sorry you feel that way and that I have not made myself clear. You are simply wrong, Thessa - I fully understand that "the ones that go there (Hell) are separated from God because they wanted to be." God never stops loving us but He will never make us love Him.
What is your opinion of Adam's "experimental theology" in post #45? Do you think he is "misunderstanding the Bible and God's Word"?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 8:54:10 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
I'm sorry you feel that way and that I have not made myself clear. You are simply wrong, Thessa - I fully understand that "the ones that go there (Hell) are separated from God because they wanted to be." God never stops loving us but He will never make us love Him.
What is your opinion of Adam's "experimental theology" in post #45? Do you think he is "misunderstanding the Bible and God's Word"?
No - i dont agree with him, though. I dont think that hell has anything to do with Gods love at all, which is why i said to YOU that its the people that go there that seperate themselves from His love.
And if you understand that then why do you keep saying that God is seperating his love from them? Hes not. THEY are.
I agree with you though when you said that God will never make us love Him. We have free will. Our choices on Earth lead us to Heaven or to Hell. God dosent make that choice. We do.
People that dont believe in God want to distort that, though, and say things like "why would a loving God send a person to Hell just for not believing in him?" - - because they dont understand what God is all about. They dont understand the bible.
They always have to have someone to blame for their own actions, when in fact its all got to do with them.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 9:01:48 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3145
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
And if you understand that then why do you keep saying that God is seperating his love from them? Hes not. THEY are. Maybe you should read my post #32 above once more. I have never claimed that God separates His Love from us here and now, only that He has no way of showing it to residents of Hell.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 9:05:01 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
And if you understand that then why do you keep saying that God is seperating his love from them? Hes not. THEY are. Maybe you should read my post #32 above once more. I have never claimed that God separates His Love from us here and now, only that He has no way of showing it to residents of Hell.
But why would he show it? How could he show it? What would be the point after they had already rejected it?
Jesus died on the cross - he didnt die for nothing. The ones that go to hell, as u already know, reject that too. Really they arent worty of Gods love anymore after doing that.
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RE: Those who are separated from the love of God - 8/31/2008 9:09:05 AM
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ta_mosquito
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Thessa and Mark - I'm confused as to what you two are arguing about. You're both saying that people in hell don't experience (or are separated from) God's love, right? So are you just arguing about whether it's God that withholds His love or the people in hell reject God's love?
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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