|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Rob Bell - 9/16/2008 7:49:54 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
GroupW,
Starting with the last highlighted statement: Maybe you can provide an actual example of how science would help you interpret a Biblical teaching.
Personally, I think science potentially has a lot to say about human nature. Let's start with the social sciences. Economists increasingly speak with one mind in declaring humans fundamentally greedy. Psychologists are increasingly having to deal with certain inflexibilities in human nature - pedophiles typically don't recover, people seem to be inexorably bound to certain unhealthy behaviors with limited ability to change things on their own. While we don't name these things "evil", psychologists are finding themselves having to explain away the persistence of antisocial behavior in humans - and not JUST humans but apes and other intelligent life as well. It appears as though all of creation really IS broken.
Let's go from there to physics. Scientists have helped us envision a multidimensional world in which time is relative. It's helped me envision a God who exists outside and independent of space and time. This helps me understand his second coming in a non-dispensationalist framework. He is coming, has come, and will come. When Christ said he was coming soon, he really did. He had already come, is coming, and will come. All at the same time if you're looking at it from God's point of view. And he comes for each of us in our own time. If God exists at all points in space and time, then we really WERE saved from the beginning of time.
A bit of an odd take on Revelation, but not outside the scope of what other non-dispensationalists have written, although expressed somewhat differently.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 9/16/2008 9:11:51 PM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 513
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
GroupW,
Starting with the last highlighted statement: Maybe you can provide an actual example of how science would help you interpret a Biblical teaching.
Personally, I think science potentially has a lot to say about human nature. Let's start with the social sciences. Economists increasingly speak with one mind in declaring humans fundamentally greedy. Psychologists are increasingly having to deal with certain inflexibilities in human nature - pedophiles typically don't recover, people seem to be inexorably bound to certain unhealthy behaviors with limited ability to change things on their own. While we don't name these things "evil", psychologists are finding themselves having to explain away the persistence of antisocial behavior in humans - and not JUST humans but apes and other intelligent life as well. It appears as though all of creation really IS broken.
Let's go from there to physics. Scientists have helped us envision a multidimensional world in which time is relative. It's helped me envision a God who exists outside and independent of space and time. This helps me understand his second coming in a non-dispensationalist framework. He is coming, has come, and will come. When Christ said he was coming soon, he really did. He had already come, is coming, and will come. All at the same time if you're looking at it from God's point of view. And he comes for each of us in our own time. If God exists at all points in space and time, then we really WERE saved from the beginning of time.
A bit of an odd take on Revelation, but not outside the scope of what other non-dispensationalists have written, although expressed somewhat differently.
I'm not sure how any of these scientific discoveries change or even enhance our understanding of God's word. Don't get me wrong, I am intrigued by science, but I don't see how these discoveries do anything more than confirm what the Bible already teaches. With the one exception of pedophilia. God can do for pedaphiles what they cannot do for themselves.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 9/18/2008 1:37:12 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
For me I think it helps shed light. Here's another. I tend to favor the idea of evolution as the method God chose to create what we see on earth, the big bang as the method for creating the universe. Lots of Christians will disagree with me on that, which is fine. It's not the immediate point here anyway.
Science tells us to view the world through the eyes of process & change. Sometimes I like to view the bible in that way as well. I once read the entire bible in chronological order (or as near as we can tell in that order) which meant reading some passages of Genesis before others or after others. When I did that, I came away with a distinct perception that the Bible is also a bit of a record of how our understanding of God changed over time. The Bible tells me as much about us as humans as it does about God as Divine. I think that influences my theology to some degree. While I can understand the necessity of drawing a bright line between the concepts of salvation and sanctification, I can also see the benefit of linking the two together as being part of one big redemptive process. I can also see the harm done by drawing the distinction too brightly as some churches do when they preach a fire insurance version of salvation. (You may not have had contact with that, but I unfortunately spent too many years as a kid in such a church.)
I think viewing things this way gives me a perspective on God's redemptive work and a willingness to see it in unexpected places.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 9/18/2008 1:50:56 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
I think I need to clarify the "gut feeling" comment with a concrete example from my own history. About 20 years ago I did cash management for a very large corporation that you would have known. Every day, I moved several hundred million dollars around.
One day, I wrapped up my duties and went home despite a nagging feeling that something wasn't right. I came in the next morning and realized that instead of wiring money TO one account, I had wired money OUT of one account, resulting in an overdraft of nearly biblical proportions. I almost lost my job.
Everytime I've had that little nagging feeling in my gut and have ignored it, bad things have happened. That feeling is there for a reason.
The same holds true when I read the bible. Often I run into passages that seem to be at odds with each other. It results in a nagging discomfort in my gut. If I choose to ignore it, I learn nothing. If I dig into it, usually I can reach some solutions.
I think the modern evangelical church, rightly insisting on the fallen nature of my mind and advocating a distrust of instinct, discounts too quickly the benefits of paying attention to those nagging little feelings in your gut. As a result, we accept too quickly as fact the teachings of others who, having some good credentials behind them, nonetheless make statements that don't always line up with what I know.
The gut feelings are motivators to look more deeply. They aren't indicators of right or wrong. They're like a rash - your body telling you that you might need to get that looked at. Maybe nothing is wrong, maybe there is. Get it looked at.
If something bothers you, look at it and explore it. Don't fear it. Deal with it. That's all.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 9/18/2008 1:58:37 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 9/18/2008 1:56:37 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
Mush-
On your comment regarding Bell's "re-writing" of Revelation. There's actually some recent research out there in the last 20 years or so that supports his interpretation. There's a decent book out somewhere on the topic that I've not read yet but a pastor of mine has. The book became the topic of several sermons there a while ago and was quite interesting. He's not completely out to lunch there. I'm not sure he captures the essence of the book 100% right, but I think he's close enough based on the sermons I listened to.
I'm still searching for the author/title. I'll PM it to you when I find it. I can never seem to remember these things when I need to. I hate getting old.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 9/19/2008 12:48:13 PM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Mush-
On your comment regarding Bell's "re-writing" of Revelation. There's actually some recent research out there in the last 20 years or so that supports his interpretation. There's a decent book out somewhere on the topic that I've not read yet but a pastor of mine has. The book became the topic of several sermons there a while ago and was quite interesting. He's not completely out to lunch there. I'm not sure he captures the essence of the book 100% right, but I think he's close enough based on the sermons I listened to.
I'm still searching for the author/title. I'll PM it to you when I find it. I can never seem to remember these things when I need to. I hate getting old.
You might try looking under Ray Vanderlaan. Who is a bible teacher at Holland Christian High School. In Holland Michigan. He has in the past went to Turkey and all over the middle east quite often and came up with those thoughts while studing the history of the area.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 9/19/2008 5:27:56 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Mush-
On your comment regarding Bell's "re-writing" of Revelation. There's actually some recent research out there in the last 20 years or so that supports his interpretation. There's a decent book out somewhere on the topic that I've not read yet but a pastor of mine has. The book became the topic of several sermons there a while ago and was quite interesting. He's not completely out to lunch there. I'm not sure he captures the essence of the book 100% right, but I think he's close enough based on the sermons I listened to.
I'm still searching for the author/title. I'll PM it to you when I find it. I can never seem to remember these things when I need to. I hate getting old.
You might try looking under Ray Vanderlaan. Who is a bible teacher at Holland Christian High School. In Holland Michigan. He has in the past went to Turkey and all over the middle east quite often and came up with those thoughts while studing the history of the area.
I'm familiar with him. He's got some good stuff - you have to check what he says a bit, but generally it's not bad. Wasn't what I'm thinking of though.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
