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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 2:40:06 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
At the conclusion of “two realms” he states: "The goal isn’t escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to. And God is remaking us into the kind of people who can do this kind of work.” pg. 150
This is so wrong, it’s hard to know where to begin describing how wrong it is. Christ reigns in a kingdom not of this world. The ruler of this world is Satan. It is not our job to make this world a place where God can come—it is our job to bring all glory to God, and through Christ, we are reconciled to God. We are not reconciling God to the world.
Does it surprise you to know that I disagree with this? 
I think scripture supports the idea that God is making (present tense) all things knew. He is redeeming (present tense) his creation. I think, and this is one point in "A Generous Orthodoxy" that I agree with, that the modern evangelical focus on the next world has to some degree minimized the importance of doing what's right in THIS world.
If it's true that salvation involves not only repentance but also a changed life in service of God ("faith without works is dead", etc. etc.) , then there are really two goals. 1) furthering God's redemption of this world through the joyful exercise of His love and showing that love to my neighbor, and 2) the preparation of my own self in the expectation of standing in his presence one day.
Meeting goal #2 is fulfilled in very large part when I focus on #1. I think when Christ said the entire law is fulfilled by loving God and by loving one's neighbor, this is what he had in mind. The two go together so closely that they cannot be distinguished from each other. They operate as a conjoined twin. Separate them, and they both die.
Bell is NOT saying that there is no hereafter about which we should be worrying. I think the idea is that the hereafter will take care of itself when we take care of the here and now.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/28/2008 3:07:50 PM >
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 2:42:49 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Everyone speaks so well of his videos. Maybe I should have skipped the book and just watched the videos!
They are well done. As you would expect, heavy on the personal aspects of faith. If you're after deep bible study, you would look elsewhere. I'd recommend watching one or two.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 2:59:59 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Also, in much of the margins I have written “me me me”. His theology strikes me as very me-centered instead of God-centered.
Around page 114 he discusses “the relentless pursuit of who God made me to be.”
p. 150 "Somewhere in you is the you whom you were made to be."
His theology on this concept fits in very well with modern Christianity. He is very hung up on the kind of Oprah Christianity that we are to be who we are meant to be, and this is the be all end all—kind of like the Army motto of “be all you can be”.
Christianity is entirely Christ-centered. It’s all about God, and honoring Him and bringing Him glory.
I'm not so sure about this either. He spends the first several pages of that chapter that includes your p. 150 reference explaining freedom from sin. That's a very biblical concept. He's using different words here than what we're used to, but the concept is as old as the Gospel.
We are no longer slaves to sin. I have been remade, reworked, reconstructed. Sin still exists within me but it doesn't rule me. I don't have to beat myself up when I fail. I'm forgiven. End of story. I still have work to do, and I still may need to repent and change, but the Spirit works with me through that.
I think the p. 114 reference is very instructive, but you need to read the entire passage to get at the meaning. He does say that somewhere in you is the you you were meant to be. He goes on to say that there is a responsibility that comes along with that - namely that anything less than the relentless pursuit of that "you" is sin. If you're not actively pursuing the perfected you in Christ, that's sin.
(Edit: notice the wording he uses above. The "relentless pursuit" of God's will for me. This is not an easy-queasy Christianity being described. Relentless. It actually reminds me of that book from years ago that received no similar flack, but advocated essentially the same thing - "The Pursuit of Holiness")
What he's teaching here may initially sound like the fuzzy-wuzzy-it's-all-about-me-pop-Christianity, but it's really much different. This is more about looking ahead toward what Christ would like me to be and fulfilling His vision for me. The words might be a bit more me-centered than what we evangelicals would like, but the underlying idea is very Christ-centered.
Christ determines the me and I am supposed to be. When I depart from that, it's sin. My eyes really are supposed to be on Christ and being more like him.
It's not hard to take the words he uses and recast them into modern evangelical speak. The underlying ideas are just not that different.
The quote on p. 114 is more adequately explained on p. 107 when he says that to be saved or redeemed is to be set free to live a new kind of life in harmony with God. This is a section of Bell that is really very Pauline in nature and exquisitely biblical. This is the point he's getting at. Freedom from sin. Freedom from being a slave to the things I think I have to do and freedom to do the things God wants me to do.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 3:06:58 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Unrelated question: Does anyone know Rob Bell’s stance on hell? I’m still finishing the book so I don’t know if he clarifies by the end.
clarify? Rob Bell?
that's a good one.
I love the guy and most of his videos, but clarity just doesn't seem to be a strong suit for him
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 3:14:16 PM
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GroupW
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As much as I like the guy, yeah, clarity is the class in school that he missed.
That's not completely bad. It gives us something to argue about here.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 3:24:54 PM
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doinkdom
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and where would these forums be without that
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 3:31:15 PM
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GroupW
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Not sure where the forums would be. I'd be getting a whole lot more work done, though.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 4:27:07 PM
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selahgirl
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quote:
Christianity is entirely Christ-centered. It’s all about God, and honoring Him and bringing Him glory. We bring Him glory when we listen to the Holy Spirit, when we are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh, when we read God’s statutes and write them on our heart, mind, and soul, when we pursue God with all our strength, etc. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. It’s not all about us becoming the ideal we were meant to be.
but what about the second commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. You can't love your neighbor until you love and respect yourself. Not above God, not out of order, but there is a measure of self to consider in our walk.
Also try reading the following passage and replace YOU and THEY with ME or I... to follow Christ in obedience, we must measure ourselves and have concern for our personal conduct, which involves some me-thinking. I must examine myself in so many ways as I strive to be like Christ and to perform his will as he leads...
Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Salt and Light
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 5:00:39 PM
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crankius
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quote:
but what about the second commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. You can't love your neighbor until you love and respect yourself. Not above God, not out of order, but there is a measure of self to consider in our walk.
Selah,
A healthy Scriptural understanding of who we are in Christ is essential. However, notice, it's who we are in Christ.
I'm saying that when we follow God's statutes, they bring glory to Him. All of creation is for God's glory. I'm not seeking to be the me I'm meant to be--I'm seeking to be Christ-like and led by the Spirit for His glory.
Which brings me to another concern with Bell.
The sin discussion on page 139 indicates that he mixes salvation with sanctification. In salvation, we are made a new creation in Christ in a couple ways (just to name two)—1, we are now viewed by God as having Christ’s righteousness, and 2, we are given ears that hear and eyes that see.
We are not made “pure, unblemished, unstained” p141 in our beings, as Bell indicates—we are set apart for God, and our unblemished state is purely Christ’s righteousness imputed to us (not infused).
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 6:52:21 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Which brings me to another concern with Bell.
The sin discussion on page 139 indicates that he mixes salvation with sanctification. In salvation, we are made a new creation in Christ in a couple ways (just to name two)—1, we are now viewed by God as having Christ’s righteousness, and 2, we are given ears that hear and eyes that see.
You might have to spell this one out more clearly for me. I just don't read it this way at all. Really, not at all.
In some ways, you could argue that modern evangelicals have separated salvation and sanctification too much. There is a consistent feeling within these forums that if one says he is saved but does not have a changed life and does not exhibit some measure of the fruit of the spirit, then we really question whether or not that person really has a saving faith. If Bell makes the mistake of confusing the two, so do most of the folks here on this forum.
The point of page 139 and the sin discussion follows the preceding discussion on page 138. He's really not talking about salvation/sanctification so making the distinction within this section would have been counterproductive.
What he's trying to say is that a works-based salvation tends to sneak into our Christianity in a way that obviously God never intended. "If I only try a little harder, if I can only beat this one sin that's been dogging me, if I ... if I..." This attitude is too much all about "I". He's saying the focus on me (the old me) isn't right. My focus needs to be on God and the new "me" he's created, rather than the old "me".
He's making the same case that Paul did, just with different words. I no longer have to be defined by my old nature. I have been made new - past tense. The old nature is still with me, but it does not define me. I am now defined by the new nature given me through the grace of God.
He uses all the same imagery to describe this that Paul did when he described the imagery of baptism. I see no problems within this section - I think it's actually one his most biblically accurate.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 6:59:14 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I'm saying that when we follow God's statutes, they bring glory to Him. All of creation is for God's glory. I'm not seeking to be the me I'm meant to be--I'm seeking to be Christ-like and led by the Spirit for His glory.
But the me I am meant to be is the me that Christ wants me to be - someone that seeks Christ and his glory. Ideally - if I'm really seeking to be the "ideal me" from God's point of view - Bell's statement and yours work out to the same exact thing.
If the "me" I'm pursuing is in any way a self-defined "me", he calls that sin. He's right.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/30/2008 11:40:23 PM
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crankius
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A few more Bell quotes:
p. 34 “You don’t have to know anything about the springs to pursue living ‘the way’.”
p. 118 “We have to listen to what our inner voice is saying.”
p. 80 “All things are mine.”
p. 150 “The remaking of this world is why Jesus’ first messages began with 'T’shuva, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.'
The Hebrew word t’shuva means “to return”. Return to the people we were originally created to be. The people God is remaking us into.”
Note: Bell is flat out false here on p. 150. The Greek word is metanoeite, which means REPENT, or turn away.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/30/2008 11:52:59 PM
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crankius
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quote:
Bell's statement and yours work out to the same exact thing.
If Bell and I were saying the same thing, I wouldn't be disagreeing with him.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/31/2008 12:05:27 AM
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crankius
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And another quote (but you'd have to read this in context to see what he is up to):
p 82: “The presentation often begins with sin and the condition of human beings, separated from God and without hope in the world. God then came up with a way to fix the problem by sending Jesus, who came to the world to give us a way out of the mess we find ourselves in. So if we were to draw a continuum of the story of the Bible, Jesus essentially shows up late in the game.” bold added by me.
He has built a straw man so that he may destroy it. Jesus is not late in the game, and a clear presentation of Scriptural truth DOES NOT state or indicate that Jesus is late in the game. 
Another quote from Bell:
p. 83 "I don't follow Jesus because I think Christianity is the best religion. I follow Jesus because he leads me into ultimate reality. He teaches me to live in tune with how reality is. When Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me", he was saying that his way, his words, his life is our connection to how things truly are at the deepest levels of existence. For Jesus then, the point of religion is to help us connect with ultimate reality, God."
For Jesus the point of religion...???
Jesus literally is the only way for us to know God, be redeemed, have atonement, be justified, etc.
By Bell trying to cleverly rephrase Scripture in post-modern language, he is eroding and changing the meaning. Since he is intelligent and reads his Bible, I can only conclude that he is doing this intentionally. It's quite shameful.
He may be a philosopher, but I can't take him seriously as a Biblical theologian.
So, I've finished this book.  Tomorrow I'll post a bit from the last part of the book.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/31/2008 8:46:21 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Which brings me to another concern with Bell.
The sin discussion on page 139 indicates that he mixes salvation with sanctification. In salvation, we are made a new creation in Christ in a couple ways (just to name two)—1, we are now viewed by God as having Christ’s righteousness, and 2, we are given ears that hear and eyes that see.
We are not made “pure, unblemished, unstained” p141 in our beings, as Bell indicates—we are set apart for God, and our unblemished state is purely Christ’s righteousness imputed to us (not infused). Since I have not, nor probably never will, read the book, I only have your commentary to go on, crankius. It is surely NOT beyond the pale of orthodoxy to describe sanctification as being "made pure, unblemished, unstained in our beings". This is basic Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine and I for one would welcome a whole lot more emphasis on holy living and Christlike righteousness in "pop" Christian resources!
If Bell truly articulates a theology of imparted righteousness, not merely imputed righteousness, then I need to read more of his Wesleyan/Holiness theology. "Infused" righteousness is an RCC doctrine and I doubt strongly that Bell ever uses the term. Did he use that specific word in the book, crankius?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/31/2008 2:37:41 PM
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crankius
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Bell does not use the words infused or imputed. He stays away from any traditional Christian theological terminology. What he says indicates that he mixes salvation (justification is more what I mean) with sanctification, but of course with Bell, the real problem in this passage is just a lack of clarity (a sloppiness with his words).
Here is more of the passage:
p. 141—“God’s view of me is Christ.
And Christ is perfect.
This is why Paul goes on to say, “Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved…”
Did you catch that word in the middle?
Holy.
Not “going to be holy someday”. Not “wouldn’t it be nice if you were holy, but instead you’re a mess”. But “holy”.
Holy means pure, without blemish, unstained.
In these passages we’re being told who we are now.”
We are certainly “set apart”, but we (ourselves) are not “pure, without blemish, unstained”. I have Christ’s righteousness imputed to me so that as God views me, he doesn’t see me and my filthy rags, but sees Christ’s righteousness.
In Bell's description of this, there is confusion. On this point, I'm probably being picky. 
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/31/2008 3:01:26 PM
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crankius
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Rather than explain Rob Bell's description of the Garden of Eden, I'll just quote it.
p. 158--"Not only are we connected with creation, but creation is going to move forward. It can't help it. It is loaded with energy. It's going to grow and produce and change and morph. This point is central to the story: The garden of Eden is not perfect. Nowhere in Genesis does it say it is perfect. The word the Bible uses is good. There is a difference. When we say "perfect", what we generally mean is "static" or "fixed" or "unchanging". It has reached a state in which there is going to be no more change. But this is not what Genesis says about the garden of Eden. Good means changing and growing and advancing and producing new things. And so these people are placed in the midst of this dynamic, changing, alive, vibrant environment and charged with the divine responsibility of doing something with it. Creating, arranging, ordering, caring for--doing something with it.
These first people have a choice: to do something with it in harmony with God or to use it for their own purposes. And not doing something with it is a choice as well. It would be a sin to abuse creation and distort it and rape it and exploit it, but it would also be a sin to do nothing with it. Because doing nothing with it would essentially be saying to God, "You have made nothing of interest to me."
So the issue of eating the fruit then is far bigger than Adam and Eve simply disobeying God. They are throwing off the whole deal. God made this magnificent world with endless possibilities of creativity and beauty and meaning, and they miss it. They decide to steer the thing in a different direction. A direction of their own choosing."
And then later on p. 161 he states:
"In Jesus, God is putting it all back together.
To make the cross of Jesus just about human salvation is to miss that God is interested in the saving of everything. Every star and rock and bird. All things."
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/31/2008 5:43:49 PM
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crankius
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I'm sure I sound reformed. 
I have a couple more posts to make, and then I promise to stop bombarding the thread. Really. 
More quotes:
p. 167—“…the most powerful things happen when the church surrenders its desire to convert people and convince them to join. It is when the church gives itself away in radical acts of service and compassion, expecting nothing in return, that the way of Jesus is most vividly put on display. To do this, the church must stop thinking about everybody primarily in categories of in or out, saved or not, believer or nonbeliever.”
I didn’t like how he combined “convert people” and “convince them to join”. While there are some churches out there with an agenda to simply gain more members, I think this is an unfair generalization for all those churches and Christian communities who are sharing the gospel in hopes others will know the truth of Jesus, and simply want people to get plugged into a church fellowship somewhere so that they can grow in the Lord.
p. 165—“The church doesn’t exist for itself; it exists to serve the world. It is not ultimately about the church; it’s about all the people God wants to bless through the church.”
He believes this is when “the church is at its best”. p. 168
According to Eph 4:11-16, the church has a distinct function as the Body of Christ. Leadership is given for “the equipping of the saints…for the edifying of the Body, till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God…for the edifying of itself in love.” Primarily, the church functions as a whole for the benefit of the church, not the world.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/31/2008 5:57:39 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4661
Joined: 4/12/2005
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On p. 166, he presents a girl living as a Christian in a community of unbelievers, and that her kindness and generosity and compassion will be appreciated by all and they will wish more people were like her. To Bell, this is sharing the Good News.
The Good News is NOT kind, good, compassionate living. The Good News is the Gospel of Christ, and so for those who receive the message, it is good news. To those who reject it, it is a stumbling block or foolishness.
In fact, Christ said He came to bring a sword. His news is not good for those who reject Him.
Rob says the kind of people who change the world “don’t make a lot of noise” and “don’t draw a lot of attention to themselves.”
“I am learning that the church is at its best when it is underground, subversive, and countercultural. It is the quiet, humble, stealth acts that change things.” p. 168
However, Acts presents a different picture of Christianity than Bell does.
(I hope I get all these places right)
Peter and John preached Christ boldly and were arrested and put in jail.
The apostles preached Christ boldly and were flogged.
Stephen preached Christ boldly and was stoned to death.
James, the brother of John was put to death.
Peter for a second time was put in jail for preaching Christ boldly.
Paul and Silas preached Christ boldly and were expelled from the region at Antioch.
Paul and Barnabas preached Christ boldly and had to flee because there was a plot to mistreat and stone them.
Paul and Silas again preached Christ boldly in Philippi, and were flogged and put in jail.
In Thessalonica, a riot resulted from Paul’s preaching.
In Athens Paul preached Christ boldly (the good news about Jesus and the resurrection—which Bell states they didn’t really talk about the resurrection much) and was sneered at.
In Corinth, Paul devoted himself to preaching, and the Jews opposed him and became abusive.
In Ephesus, there was a great riot against Paul.
In Jerusalem, first the people tried to kill Paul, then he was bound in chains, taken to the barracks, and yet Paul still preached boldly. etc. etc. etc.
Obviously, they were quiet, subversive, and stealth, and didn’t use words to preach the Good News. 
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 9/1/2008 3:58:00 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
And another quote (but you'd have to read this in context to see what he is up to):
p 82: “The presentation often begins with sin and the condition of human beings, separated from God and without hope in the world. God then came up with a way to fix the problem by sending Jesus, who came to the world to give us a way out of the mess we find ourselves in. So if we were to draw a continuum of the story of the Bible, Jesus essentially shows up late in the game.” bold added by me.
He has built a straw man so that he may destroy it. Jesus is not late in the game, and a clear presentation of Scriptural truth DOES NOT state or indicate that Jesus is late in the game.
Another quote from Bell:
p. 83 "I don't follow Jesus because I think Christianity is the best religion. I follow Jesus because he leads me into ultimate reality. He teaches me to live in tune with how reality is. When Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me", he was saying that his way, his words, his life is our connection to how things truly are at the deepest levels of existence. For Jesus then, the point of religion is to help us connect with ultimate reality, God."
For Jesus the point of religion...???
Jesus literally is the only way for us to know God, be redeemed, have atonement, be justified, etc.
By Bell trying to cleverly rephrase Scripture in post-modern language, he is eroding and changing the meaning. Since he is intelligent and reads his Bible, I can only conclude that he is doing this intentionally. It's quite shameful.
He may be a philosopher, but I can't take him seriously as a Biblical theologian.
So, I've finished this book. Tomorrow I'll post a bit from the last part of the book.
That is quite disturbing...
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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Thorough Review of Velvet Elvis - 9/1/2008 7:59:14 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4661
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Since I have finished the book and formed my own opinions for myself, I searched for reviews and found a thorough one here. He lays out systematically the errors in Bell’s Velvet Elvis.
Here is a summary of what he addresses:
quote:
I have categorized the errors of Velvet Elvis as follows:
Heretical Errors:
• Wrong View of the Trinity
• Wrong View of the Exclusivity of Christianity
• Wrong View of the State of Mankind
• Wrong Gospel
Aberrant Theology:
• Wrong View of Jesus’ Purpose
• Wrong View of Heaven and Hell
• Wrong View of Rabbinic Judaism
• Wrong Hermeneutics
• Wrong Influences < | | |
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