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Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 10:49:48 AM
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deliveredarling
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Please show your evidence supporting either option.
I do not know the answer, so I'm seeking to find out.
Speculation is not wanted, solid evidence please.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 11:17:21 AM
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JimboFletch
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Not sure what your question is about. But there's no way to give "solid" evidence since wine mentioned in the Bible did not come with percent alcohol labeling.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 11:39:22 AM
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deliveredarling
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On that thread about Christians drinking wine, there were opposing views as to whether or not the wine was alcoholic in nature.
So my question is, if it's alcoholic in nature, where do you find that.
If it's non-alcoholic, where is that found.
It seems certain religions teach both ways.
I'm just trying to find the answer.
No debate involved, just looking for the answer.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 11:42:54 AM
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Zhi
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Well, in 1 Corinthians 11, Paul is yelling at the church of Corinth because they are defiling the Lord's Supper. Some are getting drunk. Others are going hungry. Since I've never seen anyone get drunk on grape juice, I would assume that the wine they were using for the Lord's Supper contained some alcohol. How much, it's impossible to say, but enough to get drunk if you ingest sufficient quantities. Paul doesn't tell them to start using grape juice, he just tells them that they need to share and make sure everyone gets some wine and some bread.
Keep in mind that in Biblical times, there was no way to preserve grape juice. Eventually, grape juice is going to either ferment or spoil if there's no way to refrigerate it. Historically, fermentation has been used as a preservative for pretty nearly everything.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 11:46:14 AM
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stellaluna
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Well, we know that refrigeration wasn't an option, so it stands to reason that fermentation would have taken place whether you wanted it to or not.
We also know that the bible says not to be drunk on wine, so it was obviously possible to do so. No one that I know of gets drunk on grape juice.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 11:49:06 AM
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Qtman
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Unfortunately you will not find any scripture that specifically answers you question. It is all going to hinge on interpretation and opinion. Therefore this thread, although not your intention, will probably become one of those "yes it is" No it's not" threads. But for my two cents worth.
There are several verses of scripture, I don't have time to look them up and quote them right now, that refer to people being drunk from the wine. In different parts of the ible it speaks of wine and "fruit of the Vine". I am open to the suggestion that "Fruit of the vine" could mean juice. However wine I believe is alcohol. There is a verse that talks about not putting new wine in old wine skins lest the skins bust and spill the wine. Juice would not cause the skins to bust. The wine placed in these skins continues the fermentation process. It puts off a gas that causes the skins to swell. Old skins could swell to the point of breaking apart. Based on the number os people in the Bible that got drunk onn wine and the verse about the wine skins I believe the "wine" mentioned in the Bible is just that. Wine.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 11:53:38 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Unfortunately you will not find any scripture that specifically answers you question. It is all going to hinge on interpretation and opinion. Therefore this thread, although not your intention, will probably become one of those "yes it is" No it's not" threads. But for my two cents worth.
There are several verses of scripture, I don't have time to look them up and quote them right now, that refer to people being drunk from the wine. In different parts of the ible it speaks of wine and "fruit of the Vine". I am open to the suggestion that "Fruit of the vine" could mean juice. However wine I believe is alcohol. There is a verse that talks about not putting new wine in old wine skins lest the skins bust and spill the wine. Juice would not cause the skins to bust. The wine placed in these skins continues the fermentation process. It puts off a gas that causes the skins to swell. Old skins could swell to the point of breaking apart. Based on the number os people in the Bible that got drunk onn wine and the verse about the wine skins I believe the "wine" mentioned in the Bible is just that. Wine.
I think that's about the right answer. Unless there's a reason within the text itself to do otherwise, the basic rule we follow is to use the plain meaning of the word. In this case, the rule would tell us that "wine" is wine.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 1:40:48 PM
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cog41
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I think Qtman makes a good point.
If you're wondering which to use at the Lord's Supper, I don't think it matters whether it is juice or wine. The main thing is to remain focused on why we do it,be humble,be reverent,examine oneself beforehand.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:06:33 PM
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deliveredarling
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Wow, guys thanks. That helped. Qtman, those were really good points.
I would think fruit of the vine would refer to juice as well.
So far, I have not found a word in Greek or Hebrew that speaks of juice.
I found several that speak to fermented juice.
I just found it interesting that their were opposing schools of thought and wondered how each came into being.
Thanks for answering.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:07:56 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I found several that speak to fermented juice.
Was the word translated as "juice" then "oinos" or another word?
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:21:40 PM
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deliveredarling
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oinos is greek and yayin in hebrew mean wine , the fermented grape.
here are the others:
tirosh-the new wine
shekar in hebrew, sikera in greek, "always meant fermented liquor, which might be made from juice of other fruits besides the grape."
I also found that banquet in the OT meant a drinking feast (esth. 7:2; Is 5:12; Dan 5:1-4)
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:26:37 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
oinos is greek and yayin in hebrew mean wine , the fermented grape.
here are the others:
tirosh-the new wine
shekar in hebrew, sikera in greek, "always meant fermented liquor, which might be made from juice of other fruits besides the grape."
I also found that banquet in the OT meant a drinking feast (esth. 7:2; Is 5:12; Dan 5:1-4)
There is a greek word for unfermented juice (chymos) but I've got no idea how it was used in Koine greek, if at all. That's the reason for my question.
In the septuagint, yayin is consistently translated as oinos.
From the textual evidence alone (septuagint translations of yayin, usage of oinos within the various warning texts regarding alcohol, the questionable fact of an alternative word for "juice" ) one would tend to deduce that "wine" is wine.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:33:52 PM
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GroupW
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The lack of a dedicated "juice" word in the bible can be used by both sides in the argument. One side could claim that since there's no dedicated word for "juice" that the same word is used for both concepts and hence Christ could have made just plain juice.
On tbe other hand, given that fresh juice would ferment within a few days in that climate and that fresh juice wouldn't be available for large portions of the year (except very briefly for a few days at harvest time.) It's logical to also assume that such a word simply wasn't needed - the common association would be with the most common form of the drink, i.e. fermented.
I think it's interesting that there is no word for "juice"that's used in the bible but there is a word for "sour wine" or vinegar, which would be the end state of all wine eventually. I think that lends some support to the idea that a word for "juice" wouldn't have been altogether common since the most common form of the drink would have been either fermented or old/sour/vinegared. Given that this was the common understanding until the 19th century, I don't see a huge reason to alter it to conform to a much later bias toward abstention.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:36:03 PM
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GroupW
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(Confession - I'm no scholar either. I'm a banker.)
Koine greek was the variety spoken by the biblical writers. It varies from other forms slightly, so assertions made on the basis of the usage of the word in classical or attic greek don't necessarily hold in koine greek.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:42:21 PM
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deliveredarling
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Very interesting, thank you.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:45:06 PM
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GroupW
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No problem. For the record, I'd dearly love to find a koine usage of "chymos" or other word that clearly means "unfermented juice". Maybe then we could stop all this silliness and get on with the more important issues of serving God.
Phew. Had to say that. I feel better now.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:46:36 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Maybe then we could stop all this silliness and get on with the more important issues of serving God.
What silliness are you referring to? I think I missed something.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 2:50:33 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Maybe then we could stop all this silliness and get on with the more important issues of serving God.
What silliness are you referring to? I think I missed something.
Sorry. It just seems like the bible is so clear on the idea of moderation here. The idea that Jesus made grape juice just seems absurd to me.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:02:46 PM
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deliveredarling
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I don't recall ever thinking about it before I saw Covaan's comment that her old Pastor taught them it was just juice.
So , I was curious where that came from, what scripture people used to "teach" that thought.
It's been interesting to me so far.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:19:11 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I don't recall ever thinking about it before I saw Covaan's comment that her old Pastor taught them it was just juice.
So , I was curious where that came from, what scripture people used to "teach" that thought.
It's been interesting to me so far.
I see. There have been a number of threads on the issue of alchohol. The idea that somehow Jesus only created/drank/enjoyed non alcholic juice seems to come up with astonishing regularity in those threads. I think my reference to "silliness" presupposed a familiarity with some of those old posts.
Bad assumption - my apologies.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:24:55 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I see. There have been a number of threads on the issue of alchohol. The idea that somehow Jesus only created/drank/enjoyed non alcholic juice seems to come up with astonishing regularity in those threads. I think my reference to "silliness" presupposed a familiarity with some of those old posts.
Bad assumption - my apologies.
Like a lot of bad theology, that started with a premise, then the need to make scripture agree. The premise was that all consumption of alcohol, however small, is sin. With that premise, it is inconceiveable to those folk that Jesus could have made or, worse, drank wine (containing ANY amount of alcohol). I've met such folk that admitted to taking cold medicine containing alchol and, yes, they admitted to sinning - then asking forgiveness when the flu or cold was over. It's a strange lot that lives by theology built on a man-deduced premise.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:28:20 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I've met such folk that admitted to taking cold medicine containing alchol and, yes, they admitted to sinning - then asking forgiveness when the flu or cold was over. It's a strange lot that lives by theology built on a man-deduced premise.
I've yet to meet up with someone from that perspective. I do believe I would become completely unhinged.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:33:36 PM
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P31W
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I had never heard the idea that alcohol or drinking in moderation was a sin until I was in college. I attended a Bible Study group and the teacher said that the bible said it was a sin to drink.
You KNOW I had to ask "where does it say that". After three weeks of "the entire class" trying to convince the teacher he was wrong he had to admit that his father use to "preach that the bible said it was a sin" and he had never taken the time to question either his father as a parent or a pastor concerning the topic.
I have heard various discussions over the amount of alcohol in the wine and hard drink. (I guess you call that the proof?)
I have also heard discussions concerning the Nazarite vow and that it was possible in those days to live without alcohol. Another example it appears to be is that Timothy was not into drinking much wine.
On this forum the only poster I have read and can remember is Notmycity. I think he believes the wine that Jesus made was not real wine - but I am not sure.
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