The Solar System is Special

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Jhud -> The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 1:52:50 AM)
Interesting new find from a recent computer simulation of the solar system inputing current data on known exoplanets - namely that our solar system is not at all ordinary. From the article: Prevailing theoretical models attempting to explain the formation of the solar system have assumed it to be average in every way. Now a new study by Northwestern University astronomers, using recent data from the 300 exoplanets discovered orbiting other stars, turns that view on its head. The solar system, it turns out, is pretty special indeed. The study illustrates that if early conditions had been just slightly different, very unpleasant things could have happened -- like planets being thrown into the sun or jettisoned into deep space. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The researchers ran more than a hundred simulations, and the results show that the average planetary system's origin was full of violence and drama but that the formation of something like our solar system required conditions to be "just right." The study was recently published in the journal Science. Before the discovery in the early 1990s of the first planets outside the solar system, our system's nine (now eight) planets were the only ones known to us. This limited the planetary formation models, and astronomers had no reason to think the solar system unusual. "But we now know that these other planetary systems don't look like the solar system at all," said Frederic A. Rasio, a theoretical astrophysicist and professor of physics and astronomy in Northwestern's Weinberg College of Arts and Sciences. He is senior author of the Science paper. "The shapes of the exoplanets' orbits are elongated, not nice and circular. Planets are not where we expect them to be. Many giant planets similar to Jupiter, known as 'hot Jupiters,' are so close to the star they have orbits of mere days. Clearly we needed to start fresh in explaining planetary formation and this greater variety of planets we now see." So we seem to live in a finely-tuned universe, in a rare place in the galaxy, in a special solar system, on a planet that appears to be more than capable of supporting life. At what point does believing it's an accident become the real leap of faith?

scutus -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 3:37:37 AM)
First of all, quite aside from the theological implications, I was satisified to read this: "We now better understand the process of planet formation and can explain the properties of the strange exoplanets we've observed," said Rasio. "We also know that the solar system is special and understand at some level what makes it special." Creationists of course have been disputing the scientific theories about planet and solar system formation for a while. It's nice to see that astronomy has advanced so far. quote: So we seem to live in a finely-tuned universe A fine tuned universe? In what way? quote: in a rare place in the galaxy, in a special solar system, on a planet that appears to be more than capable of supporting life. At what point does believing it's an accident become the real leap of faith? I am a combination of rare factors, one of my father's sperm had to beat millions of other spermatozoa in order to meet my mother's ovum at the exact right time for me to be typing this. If it was in any way different, I probably wouldn't be here. Does this seem like an accident or the guided hand of aliens or God or Gods?

drmark -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 9:11:33 AM)
quote: First of all, quite aside from the theological implications, I was satisified to read this: "We now better understand the process of planet formation and can explain the properties of the strange exoplanets we've observed," said Rasio. Someone needs to their homework! The existence of exoplanets has been demonstrated only a little more than a decade ago and the wide range of theories regarding planetary formation clearly negate the optimism of naturalists such as Rasio. quote: Creationists of course have been disputing the scientific theories about planet and solar system formation for a while. It's nice to see that astronomy has advanced so far. Naturalists dispute their own theories! According to the most widely accepted model of planetary formation, Uranus and Neptune should not even exist. Naturalism is going nowhere! quote: A fine tuned universe? In what way? Surely you are familiar with the evidence for the fine tuning of the universe. Or do you just write this off with meaningless multiverse philosophy? quote: I am a combination of rare factors, one of my father's sperm had to beat millions of other spermatozoa in order to meet my mother's ovum at the exact right time for me to be typing this. If it was in any way different, I probably wouldn't be here. Yep, meaningless multiverse philosophy! If you had been made a jellyfish from your parents' conception, then maybe you would have a real argument for us! There's only one universe, scutus, and it bears irrefutable features of careful design and fine tuning for any who wish to see them.

ianz -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 9:21:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: I am a combination of rare factors, one of my father's sperm had to beat millions of other spermatozoa in order to meet my mother's ovum at the exact right time for me to be typing this. If it was in any way different, I probably wouldn't be here. Yep, meaningless multiverse philosophy! If you had been made a jellyfish from your parents' conception, then maybe you would have a real argument for us! There's only one universe, scutus, and it bears irrefutable features of careful design and fine tuning for any who wish to see them. You're missing the point. The fact that our system is special is not evidence that it was planned to be special. Toss a coin 20 times and you'll get a 1 in 1 million result. But that in itself is not evidence that the result was planned. Regards, Ian

drmark -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 9:27:13 AM)
No, you've already missed the point! The divine creation of the universe was NOT a random coin toss. It was a one-time event characterized by purposeful design and fine tuning for human life. Meaningless philosophical banter does not change this simple fact!

ianz -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 9:30:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark No, you've already missed the point! The divine creation of the universe was NOT a random coin toss. It was a one-time event characterized by purposeful design and fine tuning for human life. Meaningless philosophical banter does not change this simple fact! That's an opinion, not a fact. Our solar system supports life. Other solar systems do not (well, not as we know it anyway). From this observation alone we cannot conclude that we were planned. Through chance alone we could have come about. Or we could have been planned. Either way, the observation is insufficient from which to draw a conclusion. Regards, Ian

essentialsaltes -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 12:30:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud Interesting new find from a recent computer simulation of the solar system inputing current data on known exoplanets - namely that our solar system is not at all ordinary. From the article: Certainly interesting. This may help refine our estimates of Drake's equation, though it's also true that the only exoplanets we are able to see are necessarily very unlike earth, so the data we have are already skewed away from solar systems like ours.

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 2:29:37 PM)
quote: A fine tuned universe? In what way? Gravity, strong nuclear force, the cosmological constant, the ratio of electrons to protons, reactions rates of nuclear processes, etc. quote: I am a combination of rare factors, one of my father's sperm had to beat millions of other spermatozoa in order to meet my mother's ovum at the exact right time for me to be typing this. If it was in any way different, I probably wouldn't be here. Does this seem like an accident or the guided hand of aliens or God or Gods? Actually, your fathers sperm was designed to do just what it did � the fact that conception occurred is no more surprising than the fact that a rock when dropped falls toward the ground. The universe however did not have to be as it is.

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 2:33:06 PM)
quote: That's an opinion, not a fact. Our solar system supports life. Other solar systems do not (well, not as we know it anyway). From this observation alone we cannot conclude that we were planned. Through chance alone we could have come about. Or we could have been planned. Either way, the observation is insufficient from which to draw a conclusion. Well, I would think if is demonstrated the universe does not ordinarily produce solar systems or planets like ours, and this knowledge grows more certain over time, then the notion that our was intentional becomes more likely.

drj11 -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 4:51:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: That's an opinion, not a fact. Our solar system supports life. Other solar systems do not (well, not as we know it anyway). From this observation alone we cannot conclude that we were planned. Through chance alone we could have come about. Or we could have been planned. Either way, the observation is insufficient from which to draw a conclusion. Well, I would think if is demonstrated the universe does not ordinarily produce solar systems or planets like ours, and this knowledge grows more certain over time, then the notion that our was intentional becomes more likely. Interesting. I would draw the exact opposite conclusion. The more anomalous this planet and even this solar system seem, the less likely it seems to me to be 'fine tuned'. In a universe that is incomprehensibly big our planet is a spec in comparison. On this spec, we can only comfortably live on what... 10-20% of it? That seems like the opposite of fine tuning to me.

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/16/2008 7:12:04 PM)
quote: Interesting. I would draw the exact opposite conclusion. The more anomalous this planet and even this solar system seem, the less likely it seems to me to be 'fine tuned'. In a universe that is incomprehensibly big our planet is a spec in comparison. On this spec, we can only comfortably live on what... 10-20% of it? That seems like the opposite of fine tuning to me. So if you were walking through a forest, and came across a house, you would consider it less likely that the house had been designed by a builder because the forest wasn't cleared and filled with houses? What strange logic.

drj11 -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/17/2008 12:25:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Interesting. I would draw the exact opposite conclusion. The more anomalous this planet and even this solar system seem, the less likely it seems to me to be 'fine tuned'. In a universe that is incomprehensibly big our planet is a spec in comparison. On this spec, we can only comfortably live on what... 10-20% of it? That seems like the opposite of fine tuning to me. So if you were walking through a forest, and came across a house, you would consider it less likely that the house had been designed by a builder because the forest wasn't cleared and filled with houses? What strange logic. Not really a proper metaphor. If I were walking through a forest (ie lots of trees) looking for shelter, and found a hollowed out tree with a space I could fit in, among all the other trees, I would not jump to the conclusion that the neither the tree, nor the forest was designed with me in mind, or that it was even designed by intelligence at all. Just as Earth is the only habitable planet out of all the existing planets that we know of. Our solar system compared to other solar systems or our planet compared to other planets is not like a house compared to a forest... its like a tree in the forest.

ianz -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/17/2008 5:28:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: That's an opinion, not a fact. Our solar system supports life. Other solar systems do not (well, not as we know it anyway). From this observation alone we cannot conclude that we were planned. Through chance alone we could have come about. Or we could have been planned. Either way, the observation is insufficient from which to draw a conclusion. Well, I would think if is demonstrated the universe does not ordinarily produce solar systems or planets like ours, and this knowledge grows more certain over time, then the notion that our was intentional becomes more likely. I guess it comes down to whether or not there is a general uniformity to solar systems, and that ours is substantially removed from that. I don't know the answer to this question. Regards, Ian

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/17/2008 7:59:22 AM)
quote: Not really a proper metaphor. If I were walking through a forest (ie lots of trees) looking for shelter, and found a hollowed out tree with a space I could fit in, among all the other trees, I would not jump to the conclusion that the neither the tree, nor the forest was designed with me in mind, or that it was even designed by intelligence at all. Just as Earth is the only habitable planet out of all the existing planets that we know of. Our solar system compared to other solar systems or our planet compared to other planets is not like a house compared to a forest... its like a tree in the forest. I disagree - if the research is to be believed thus far, our solar system is not just somewhat different than others, it is radically different - and well suited for our existence. That is significant - and a falsifiable notion in that all that is required to disprove it is to discover another solar system like our own.

BVZ -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 3:26:05 AM)
Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the planet you find it on can support life? Isn't that a given?

drmark -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 9:22:49 AM)
quote: Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the planet you find it on can support life? Isn't that a given? Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the existence of life requires a cause greater than life itself? Isn't that a given?

Veritas -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 9:59:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the planet you find it on can support life? Isn't that a given? Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the existence of life requires a cause greater than life itself? Isn't that a given? No. It is not a given. If life required a cause greater than itself, that would lead to infinite regress

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 10:34:21 AM)
quote: No. It is not a given. If life required a cause greater than itself, that would lead to infinite regress Not anymore than any caused event requires an infinite regress.

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 10:35:49 AM)
quote: Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the planet you find it on can support life? Isn't that a given? That isn't the question - the question is, "What set of circumstances are required for life to exist?" Increasingly we are finding that it is a very particular set of circumstances indeed.

Veritas -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 1:23:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: No. It is not a given. If life required a cause greater than itself, that would lead to infinite regress Not anymore than any caused event requires an infinite regress. Exactly! A slight wind can cause a domino effect. A tiny spark can cause a great fire. An effect does not require a cause greater than the effect.

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 1:59:49 PM)
quote: Exactly! A slight wind can cause a domino effect. A tiny spark can cause a great fire. An effect does not require a cause greater than the effect. Well, I didn't make that claim - I was simply pointing out that the argument of an infinite regress isn't the result of such an argument. Interestingly, your argument seems to counter the claim Dawkins makes that a designer must be more complex than his design.

GroupW -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 2:02:42 PM)
The interesting thing to me is that within this argument, for every proposition that can be made there is a counter-proposition that can be made. For example, yes this is a very special solar system. However, out of all the solar systems in the universe, there is a certain probability of having one this "special". Out of all possible universes, there is a certain probability of finding yourself in just exactly such a universe. For some, the fact that you have found yourself in such a place, isn't necessarily demonstrative of any particular divine cause. For others, it's just exactly that. My dog lives in a huge dog run that's in the mountains and has lots of stuff to chase. It's the perfect dog run for a Bernese Mountain Dog. He might think that I'm divine for having created such a wonderful run so exquisitely formed for his needs. Or he could say that out of all the various houses in the neighborhood, there had to be at least one so perfectly formed and isn't he lucky to happen to be the dog living in it. I love the discussions on these forums. They're fun but they can never "prove" anything. In the end, there is faith. That's about all one can say with certainty. That's my gratuitous semi-off-topic post for the day.

Aristocrat -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 2:25:08 PM)
What you are saying here is that if there was no God, our solar system would not exist, much less support life on the third planet from the Sun. But that has always been the creationist's belief. Everything science has yet to find an answer for, Creationists assume God did it in a very paranormal, supernatural way. And they are welcome to do that, but it can't be taught as science.

Jhud -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/18/2008 2:28:37 PM)
quote: What you are saying here is that if there was no God, our solar system would not exist, much less support life on the third planet from the Sun. But that has always been the creationist's belief. Everything science has yet to find an answer for, Creationists assume God did it in a very paranormal, supernatural way. And they are welcome to do that, but it can't be taught as science. Who are you addressing this to? The OP says no such thing.

BVZ -> RE: The Solar System is Special (8/19/2008 2:52:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the planet you find it on can support life? Isn't that a given? Is it really that surprising that when you find life, that the existence of life requires a cause greater than life itself? Isn't that a given? No. Thats what you are trying to argue TOWARDS. You can't assume your conclusion. Are you assuming your conclusion?

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