|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/9/2008 1:33:38 PM
|
|
|
Veritas
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Well, thanks for all the answers, analogies and all.
But I still feel the same questions remain open - unresolved - simply because we just don't know enough to see the solution to apparent contradictions. There's a difference between a contradiction and a paradox.
But to my mind as soon we speak of expansion we're speaking of space.
Now if I were to apply scripture to these questions qwe find something interesting. Solomon (the greatest and richest playboy who ever lived) says concerning God that "the heaven and the heaven of heavens are not wide enough to be his resting-place" or in the KJV "are not able to contain him". (heaven of heavens = the entire cosmos + I suppose the biblical other dimensional place called heaven)
This text implies that the universe is not infinite. Which makes a lot more sense with regards to this expansion subject and all. We know that God must, by definition, be infinite. But if the universe cannot contain then it is not infinite.
That does not follow. There are an infinite number of rational numbers, but the rational numbers are properly contained within the set of real numbers. The reals form a larger infinite set. There are even larger (obviously infinite) sets that contain the reals. The reals are contained in the even larger Long Line. Every set (infinite or finite) can be properly contained in an even larger set.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/9/2008 1:40:42 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Every set (infinite or finite) can be properly contained in an even larger set. Well, well, the self-avowed atheist concludes that the infinite universe is "properly contained in" an even larger God. Nicely reasoned, Veritas! it's a shame you don't believe it.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/9/2008 2:00:20 PM
|
|
|
Veritas
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Every set (infinite or finite) can be properly contained in an even larger set. Well, well, the self-avowed atheist concludes that the infinite universe is "properly contained in" an even larger God. Nicely reasoned, Veritas! it's a shame you don't believe it.
I didn't say the universe is contained in an even larger God. I said that the argument that the universe must be finite if it is contained in an infinite God is flawed.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/9/2008 2:10:54 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Of course you won't admit to what you said - it's against your religion!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/9/2008 3:05:43 PM
|
|
|
Veritas
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Of course you won't admit to what you said - it's against your religion!
I tried to clarify what I said. I can try to clarify further if it is necessary. What do you think I said that I will not now admit to?
As you noted above, I am an atheist. I have no religion.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/10/2008 12:06:08 PM
|
|
|
GHitch
Posts: 177
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
That does not follow. There are an infinite number of rational numbers, but the rational numbers are properly contained within the set of real numbers. The reals form a larger infinite set. There are even larger (obviously infinite) sets that contain the reals. The reals are contained in the even larger Long Line. Every set (infinite or finite) can be properly contained in an even larger set. Your conflating the imaginary with the real. The universe is real and is infinite or finite, numbers are conceptual only. Your argument is thus inappropriate to the subject.
quote:
I am an atheist. I have no religion. Sad. Atheism is the lamest of all metaphysical (religious) systems. It has no foundations other than willful disbelief in the face of vast evidence to the contrary. It starts with nothing and goes with nothing, producing nothing, helping no one and has always been the smallest minority system of thought in history.
It leaves life without purpose, without reason and without use.
"The atheists are for the most part imprudent and misguided scholars who reason badly who, not being able to understand the Creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis the eternity of things and of inevitability....." Voltaire:
"To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, 'I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge'." — Ravi Zacharias
The last quote is particularily damning to atheism since true.
The best you can do within reason is agnosticism.
There is no logic to atheism. It is a mere psychological escape mechanism from personal responsibility and accountability and is born of fear.
Never understand how it is that normally intelligent people can become atheists (or Darwinists for that matter but then the 2 usually coincide - must be like W. Provine says, "Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented").
Is there a thread here on atheism?
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/10/2008 12:16:18 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Is there a thread here on atheism? I think it's against TOS. 
However, there have been several threads discussing "scientific proofs" for God's existence but the atheists generally drop out when confronted with factual reality. Or they try to steer the conversation toward Heisenberg uncertainty principles, string theory, multiverses, and other esoteric fluff. Either way, their religious faith-based system is pretty much impervious to reason.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/10/2008 4:20:45 PM
|
|
|
tcasboy
Posts: 38
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not really a proper metaphor.
If I were walking through a forest (ie lots of trees) looking for shelter, and found a hollowed out tree with a space I could fit in, among all the other trees, I would not jump to the conclusion that the neither the tree, nor the forest was designed with me in mind, or that it was even designed by intelligence at all. Just as Earth is the only habitable planet out of all the existing planets that we know of. Our solar system compared to other solar systems or our planet compared to other planets is not like a house compared to a forest... its like a tree in the forest.
I disagree - if the research is to be believed thus far, our solar system is not just somewhat different than others, it is radically different - and well suited for our existence. That is significant - and a falsifiable notion in that all that is required to disprove it is to discover another solar system like our own.
If our solar system is incredibly, impossibly, mind-bendingly unique, there might be only a few hundred billion like it in the entire universe.
< Message edited by tcasboy -- 9/10/2008 5:00:46 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/10/2008 6:07:56 PM
|
|
|
DanJames
Posts: 679
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not really a proper metaphor.
If I were walking through a forest (ie lots of trees) looking for shelter, and found a hollowed out tree with a space I could fit in, among all the other trees, I would not jump to the conclusion that the neither the tree, nor the forest was designed with me in mind, or that it was even designed by intelligence at all. Just as Earth is the only habitable planet out of all the existing planets that we know of. Our solar system compared to other solar systems or our planet compared to other planets is not like a house compared to a forest... its like a tree in the forest.
I disagree - if the research is to be believed thus far, our solar system is not just somewhat different than others, it is radically different - and well suited for our existence. That is significant - and a falsifiable notion in that all that is required to disprove it is to discover another solar system like our own.
If our solar system is incredibly, impossibly, mind-bendingly unique, there might be only a few hundred billion like it in the entire universe.
ugh... we know of 125 billion-ish galaxies. The solar system is also unique in its placement within the galaxy, a habitable zone that is more limiting than just picking a place and planting an ecosystem.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/11/2008 8:10:28 AM
|
|
|
Veritas
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
That does not follow. There are an infinite number of rational numbers, but the rational numbers are properly contained within the set of real numbers. The reals form a larger infinite set. There are even larger (obviously infinite) sets that contain the reals. The reals are contained in the even larger Long Line. Every set (infinite or finite) can be properly contained in an even larger set. Your conflating the imaginary with the real. The universe is real and is infinite or finite, numbers are conceptual only. Your argument is thus inappropriate to the subject.
Numbers are concepts but they have applications in the real world. We use numbers in the real world all the time. Three is a concept, these three cookies are real... two cookies ... one cookie ... Well, they were real.
Your argument is based on confusing infinite with all-encompassing. I was using examples from math to show that infinite is not the same as all-encompassing. The universe can be infinite and contained in something larger. I do not believe this is the case. But, even if one accepts that the universe is contained in an all-encompassing (and obviously infinite) God, it does not follow that the universe is finite. Because something can be infinite yet not all encompassing.
quote:
Is there a thread here on atheism?
Atheists bow out from discussing atheism here, but not for the reasons drmark gave. Christians can defend Christianity here as forcefully as the please, but an atheist defending atheism runs the risk of violating TOS. And, it is frustrating trying to explain the difference between a disbelief and a belief to people who keep insisting that atheism is a religion despite the differences. I'm not here to promote atheism on a Christian board.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/11/2008 10:44:56 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3140
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I'm not here to promote atheism on a Christian board. Is that so? You and your colleagues can label materialistic uniformitarian naturalism anything you wish, but the rest of us know atheism when we see it promoted!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/11/2008 11:57:42 AM
|
|
|
GHitch
Posts: 177
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
Numbers are concepts but they have applications in the real world. We use numbers in the real world all the time. Three is a concept, these three cookies are real... two cookies ... one cookie ... Well, they were real.
Your argument is based on confusing infinite with all-encompassing. I was using examples from math to show that infinite is not the same as all-encompassing. The universe can be infinite and contained in something larger. I do not believe this is the case. But, even if one accepts that the universe is contained in an all-encompassing (and obviously infinite) God, it does not follow that the universe is finite. Because something can be infinite yet not all encompassing. Well, I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree that something can be larger than infinite. As for numbers - well of course numbers can represent real things but numbers themselves are not real but conceptual, only mind can conceive of logic and math.
quote:
Is there a thread here on atheism?
Atheists bow out from discussing atheism here, but not for the reasons drmark gave. Christians can defend Christianity here as forcefully as the please, but an atheist defending atheism runs the risk of violating TOS. And, it is frustrating trying to explain the difference between a disbelief and a belief to people who keep insisting that atheism is a religion despite the differences. I'm not here to promote atheism on a Christian board. Certainly frustrating, yet atheism has all the earmarks of religion in so many cases it's normal for people to argue that they. Atheism is a negative argument only, which makes it a gaps argument and invalid AFAICS.
I personally do not believe anyone can be a true hard atheist while looking at the facts. Reason doesn't support it.
The existence of anything can be traced back to a beginning and an intial cause. But the non-existence of any thing goes nowhere unless the argue against is a logical absurdity.
I often hear atheists tell me, "you can't prove a negative". Then they inevitabley try to prove a negative in that there is no God.
But if you can't prove a negative (not always true) then how can you insist on something for which no proof is even possible? All while pretending it is true? Atheism thus has no basis in reason or logic, quite the contrary.
Whatever...
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/11/2008 1:24:01 PM
|
|
|
Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
|
ATTENTION: Moderator's Note
This thread is not about athiesm. Please bring the thread back on topic.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
Thank you for your attention and complicance in this matter.
Lisa Luper
Faith Community Network
Forums Moderator
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/11/2008 1:27:19 PM
|
|
|
Veritas
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
Numbers are concepts but they have applications in the real world. We use numbers in the real world all the time. Three is a concept, these three cookies are real... two cookies ... one cookie ... Well, they were real.
Your argument is based on confusing infinite with all-encompassing. I was using examples from math to show that infinite is not the same as all-encompassing. The universe can be infinite and contained in something larger. I do not believe this is the case. But, even if one accepts that the universe is contained in an all-encompassing (and obviously infinite) God, it does not follow that the universe is finite. Because something can be infinite yet not all encompassing. Well, I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree that something can be larger than infinite. As for numbers - well of course numbers can represent real things but numbers themselves are not real but conceptual, only mind can conceive of logic and math.
OK. Consider an infinite 3D space. Divide it in half. Each half is obviously infinite, yet contained in the entire space. Something can be infinite and still be contained in something larger.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/12/2008 12:04:35 PM
|
|
|
GHitch
Posts: 177
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
OK. Consider an infinite 3D space. Divide it in half. Each half is obviously infinite, yet contained in the entire space. Something can be infinite and still be contained in something larger. Only in concept. Not in reality. Mathematical concepts applied to infinity have no relation to physical reality.
Anyway, the point is whether the universe is infinite or not. I still say no since it had a beginning. Still for all practical purposes for humans it certainly appears infinite. I think the jury is still out on any definitive answer.
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/12/2008 2:47:30 PM
|
|
|
GHitch
Posts: 177
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
|
More stuff :
In Why the Universe Is the Way It Is, astronomer Hugh Ross explains,
quote:
The solar system holds a special position in the Milky Way, close to (but not exactly at) the co-rotation distance - the one distance from the core where stars orbit the galaxy at the same rate as its spiral arm structure does. A star or planetary system located at the co-rotation distance and between two spiral arms would seemingly remain at that safe place. However, stars and planetary systems exactly at the co-rotation distance would experience a "mean motion resonance," repeated gravitational "kicks" exerted by the galactic arm structure. Such kicks would send the star and its possible planetary system flying out of the habitable zone.
Earth's solar system is located just inside the co-rotation distance. So it is safe from the mean motion resonance. Because the solar system revolves around the galactic center only slightly faster than the galactic arm structure, it crosses the spiral arms only one about every billion years. The last spiral arm crossing occurred 560 to 600 million years ago (just before the Cambrian explosion, when complex animals first came on the scene), so Earth currently resides in the safest possible position).
This protected location is truly exceptional. Not all spiral galaxies are like the Milky Way. In the vast majority, the co-rotation distance and the habitable zone fail to overlap. Not only is there a match for the Milky Way Galaxy, but also the best possible place for a newly forming planetary system to accumulate all the heavy elements and long-lived radioactive isotopes requires for advanced life happens to lie just inside the co-rotation distance." (pp. 68-70)
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/13/2008 1:21:56 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 302
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ugh... we know of 125 billion-ish galaxies. The solar system is also unique in its placement within the galaxy, a habitable zone that is more limiting than just picking a place and planting an ecosystem.
I can see what tcasboy is getting at. If our solar system were the only one of its kind in the entire galaxy, that would be extremely unique. If only half of all the galaxies had even one such unique solar system, that would be over 60 billion such solar systems. 60 billion out of I don't know how many gazillions of solar systems would still be unique, right?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/15/2008 12:17:22 AM
|
|
|
DanJames
Posts: 679
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: ugh... we know of 125 billion-ish galaxies. The solar system is also unique in its placement within the galaxy, a habitable zone that is more limiting than just picking a place and planting an ecosystem.
I can see what tcasboy is getting at. If our solar system were the only one of its kind in the entire galaxy, that would be extremely unique. If only half of all the galaxies had even one such unique solar system, that would be over 60 billion such solar systems. 60 billion out of I don't know how many gazillions of solar systems would still be unique, right?
I don't think that "unique" is really addressing just how much of a "1 in a million" our solar system is. In fact, "1 in a million" isn't really addressing how "1 in a million" our solar system is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/18/2008 3:34:05 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 302
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
Yeah, dealing with the kinds of numbers astronomy deals with makes it hard to appreciate 'unique'. I don't know much about any of this, but I'm guessing we're a ways off from having a good idea what the odds are for all the factors to come together the right way.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/18/2008 1:23:57 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
|
quote:
Yeah, dealing with the kinds of numbers astronomy deals with makes it hard to appreciate 'unique'. I don't know much about any of this, but I'm guessing we're a ways off from having a good idea what the odds are for all the factors to come together the right way.
Whatever way you want to skew the numbers, the bottom line is that it is becoming increasingly obvious that the Copernican Principle - science's current assumption that the earth is mediocre - is almost certainly not true.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 9/19/2008 8:16:36 AM
|
|
|
abraxas
Posts: 302
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
It's somewhere between center-of-universe and commonplace? What's all the fuss about? I like the idea of our planet being somewhat special--keeps the alien invaders a little further off!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 10/28/2008 1:50:22 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
|
More evidence that our planet, and solar system are unique:
Life has short time to form around small mass stars:
Planets around small mass stars may only have a billion-year window during which life can form. This is the implication of research into the tidal forces that can pull a planet into a tighter orbit around a star.
The so-called habitable zone around a star is loosely defined as planetary orbits in which water would be liquid, not vapor or solid, on the planets' surface. These orbits are closer-in for smaller (less bright) stars.
However, habitability is not a permanent property of a planet.
"For some planets around low mass stars, they are not going to hang around in the habitable zone forever," says Rory Barnes of the Lunar and Planetary Institute at the University of Arizona. "They are going to be pulled out."
The pulling is due to tidal forces that arise because the gravitational attraction between planet and star is not uniform over their surfaces.
Barnes and his colleagues have shown that the tidal forces around a small mass star can draw a planet from the habitable zone on the order of a billion years, as reported in a recent issue of Astrobiology Journal.
Amazing that our star is just the right mass to keep us safely in the habitable zone - not too big, not too small - ahhhh...I think I'll stay for awhile.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 10/28/2008 4:30:47 PM
|
|
|
catfighter
Posts: 94
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
More evidence that our planet, and solar system are unique:
If our planet is impossibly unique, there may only be a few hundred billion just like it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 10/28/2008 5:33:50 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
|
quote:
If our planet is impossibly unique, there may only be a few hundred billion just like it.
Or so some have imagined; but no evidence that this is the case, and growing evidence that this is not so. Either way, the Copernican Principle seems kaput.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Solar System is Special - 10/28/2008 9:53:44 PM
|
|
|
catfighter
Posts: 94
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If our planet is impossibly unique, there may only be a few hundred billion just like it.
Or so some have imagined; but no evidence that this is the case, and growing evidence that this is not so. Either way, the Copernican Principle seems kaput.
We have looked in detail (enough to detect planets) at a tiny fraction of 1% or our galaxy and not at all at the 100+ billion other galaxies. What growing evidence is there that our planet is unique on cosmic scale?
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
