RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians!
View related threads:
(in this forum
| in all forums)
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 2:16:19 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
By way of comparison, it is written...
Exactly. There is no contradiction, just your interpretation.
Do you really think you should worship God based on MY background and personality or should you worship Him based on someone else?
When you have prejudged something incorrectly, you cannot see the truth even when you attempt to trash a minister's intention.
Please show in scripture where worship has anything to do with anyone’s background or personality?
Warren bases his teachings on the heresy of psychology, and for the purpose of the next few posts, I would like anyone to demonstrate how his teaching coincides with God’s Word.
I’ll say this ahead of time Jimbo, if you can’t back it up with Scripture, I will not respond.
Thank you.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 2:21:18 PM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
I thought maybe I would take a stab at this thread. Sounds like fun.
I don't want to be a person who trashes Warren or questions his intentions. I don't know much about him aside from his Purpose-Driven series.
While I don't think he is a heretic, or that people are sent to hell because they followed his model, or anything like that, I still wasn't a fan. It wasn't the worst book I read, though, either.
I wrote about it prior, so I'll reiterate a few of the passages that he used that I thought were a little . . twisting, perhaps. It may not have been intentional, but I had a hard time looking past them.
Rick Warrens version of Proverbs 18:5 "The intelligent man is always open to new ideas. In fact, he looks for them."
What the Bible says: Proverbs 18:15 "The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge."
- I don't like the idea of "new ideas." Clearly, the intent is not Gnostic, I know, but can you see how easily it can look like that?
Warren's use of Matthew 16:25 "Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self." He uses this to say that if you want a more successful life, you need more than self-help advice.
What Matthew 16:25 actually says. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Warren here, ignoring context, and using a horrible paraphrases, loses the very essence of what Christ was talking about. While it is not the crux of the book, it bothered me just how softened this passage became.
Anyway, those were just a couple that stood out to me. There were a few other things that stuck out a little bit. Small things, usually. Warren said that the primary purpose of the church was unity. I'm not sure I agree with that.
I found the book, as a whole, to be too man-centered and less Theocentric. Understandably, not all books are going to be just what I'm looking for. I guess what bothered me was more so not what was in there, but what I felt was missing and would have liked to have seen in it.
Like I said, it's not the end of the world if someone reads it. For a new-born Christian, I am not bothered by them reading it.
I just think that there has been such a wild craze for this book, that people have overlooked other books that are simply better.
_____________________________
love.ben
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 2:26:25 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
Here’s another lie in PDL:
"Gideon’s weakness was low self-esteem..." (p. 275).
More psycho-babble.
Then again, SCRIPTURE says:
Judg 6:23-28
23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.
24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovah-shalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abi-ezrites.
25 And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Take thy father's young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that is by it:
26 And build an altar unto the LORD thy God upon the top of this rock, in the ordered place, and take the second bullock, and offer a burnt sacrifice with the wood of the grove which thou shalt cut down.
27 Then Gideon took ten men of his servants, and did as the LORD had said unto him: and so it was, because he feared his father's household, and the men of the city, that he could not do it by day, that he did it by night.
28 And when the men of the city arose early in the morning, behold, the altar of Baal was cast down, and the grove was cut down that was by it, and the second bullock was offered upon the altar that was built.
Gideon obeyed despite his fear. It was his belief in God that sustained him, not his “ self-esteem”.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 2:28:43 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I just think that there has been such a wild craze for this book, that people have overlooked other books that are simply better.
One book that is infinitely better is The Bible.
Eccl 12:11-14
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 2:51:12 PM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
One book that is infinitely better is The Bible.
Well, yeah, but cmon. Christian literature is a GOOD thing.
_____________________________
love.ben
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:11:07 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Well, yeah, but cmon. Christian literature is a GOOD thing.
I once would have agreed.....until I read the Bible.
PDL is a wonderful tool of darkness because it caters to almighty self. Warren speaks a great deal of personality, background and self-esteem in his writings, and what better way to connect with the masses?
One sign of the end of days is a love of self. The enemy knows this and has used it for his purposes, distorting the true gospel, and replacing it with another gospel.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:17:02 PM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
*sigh*
Guess I'll have to go read the Bible now . . . .
_____________________________
love.ben
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:22:06 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
I once would have agreed.....until I read the Bible.
You are so precious, NMC. You think you and you alone on this forum have read and actually understand the Bible. You have a trait often cited in scripture - pride.
Being in the minority among the lost might be a badge of honor but within the body of Christ it indicates several things entirely different - none of them good, none of them Christlike.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:23:23 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Please show in scripture where worship has anything to do with anyone’s background or personality?
NMC, you HAVE to worship God from who you are and what you know otherwise it's fake and hypocrisy. You cannot worship from anyone else's perspective. You can mentally appreciate theirs, but not worship from their heart.
quote:
Warren bases his teachings on the heresy of psychology, and for the purpose of the next few posts, I would like anyone to demonstrate how his teaching coincides with God’s Word.
What are you, a Scientologist?
When you are shown where the Word of God and PDL (or any of your phobias) line up with scripture you just shrug it off and make unsubstantiated assertions (or regurgitate someone else's views).
quote:
I’ll say this ahead of time Jimbo, if you can’t back it up with Scripture, I will not respond.
I know, I know, God gave you that space between your ears so that you would have a large enough spot to hang your ball cap.
At some point in your life, unless you die first, you should reach the point where the scripture fits together and your walk with the Holy Spirit is close enough that you begin to understand as Jesus did. Otherwise you have nothing better than the legalism of the Pharisees where every step is painted before you - and you are at a complete loss when anything comes at you outside your box.
No Scripture...therefore...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:24:50 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
PDL is a wonderful tool of darkness because it caters to almighty self....
Proof positive that you have no clue what you are writing about. Almost the very first thing the book states and the thing the rest of the book reinforces is "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!"
I know that eats at one's pride...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:28:20 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
...You think you and you alone on this forum have read and actually understand the Bible.
You’ve twisted my words.
Ps 56:5
5 Every day they wrest my words.....
When you're ready to stop the slander and misquoting me I'll consider responding.
Enjoy your day. GTG.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:38:28 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
You’ve twisted my words.
Nbody twisted your words. Your implication was that you believed that Christian literature was good until you read the Bible - unlike the person you addressed.
It's the reason people react to your posts like they do, you proudly hold yourself above everyone else because, unlike the rest of the Church, you read the Bible and understand it.
1 Corinthians 4:19
But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:43:08 PM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
...You think you and you alone on this forum have read and actually understand the Bible.
You’ve twisted my words.
Ps 56:5
5 Every day they wrest my words.....
That's funny. That verse was used when David was seized by the Phillistines at Gath. Do you feel seized? Are we your enemy? Are you praying that we turn our back so that you are no longer oppressed by us?
Or did you just prooftext?
_____________________________
love.ben
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 3:56:00 PM
|
|
|
Rick4Him
Posts: 92
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I just think that there has been such a wild craze for this book, that people have overlooked other books that are simply better
That is a important statement you made. I'm talking about the "wild craze" part. People have made too much of Rick Warren's philosophies and ignored the good Word of God. I too, have trouble with his use of the Message. Even worse is that he mixes it with more conservative versions of Scripture to make his points clearer.
Rick
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/20/2008 4:30:44 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Soxfan, I read PDL. It was written primarily to baby Christians. There is no reason that anyone should walk away from the book doubting in salvation by grace, the authority of the Bible (that someting people criticize the book for OVER-doing), or that there is any way to receive eternal life apart from Jesus.
Rick, this is my first response to this thread. Does it appear to you that I may too much of Rick Warren?
Most believers that I've talked with that read PDL without getting someone else's opinion either before or just after completing it see it as very, very basic Christianity.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/20/2008 5:34:13 PM
|
|
|
Teaching_The_Way
Posts: 58
Joined: 4/18/2006
From: Teaching The Way Ministries
Status: offline
|
Yes me and my wife agrees totally with what you said. Many churches has fallen for that so called purpose driven book theology stuff. Even here in the midwest. We DO NOT need new books written by people, we just need the old book, (The Bible)! :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Granger Community Church, one of the premiere Purpose-Driven churches and the 6th most influential church in America just announced the results of their Reveal Study. The results are SHOCKING but not surprising because many Bereans have been warning for years that the seeker-sensitive / purpose-driven model was creating false converts and now there is hard statistical data that backs up this claim.
Granger’s own qualitative study revealed that:
47% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in salvation by grace.
57% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in the authority of the Bible.
56% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
Anyone still think that the "Christianity-lite" theology of Warren, Hybels, Schuller, and Osteen is a good thing?
_____________________________
http://teachingtheway.net/
If our opinions does not line up with
the scriptures, then our opinions are
dead wrong! Gods words are more important
than our opinions!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 5:43:32 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
We DO NOT need new books written by people, we just need the old book, (The Bible)! :)
Imagine what a big waste of paper to have published books by the likes of CS Lewis, John Bunyan, Augustine, St. Francis, Luther, Spurgeon, Moody, Towzer, Jonathan Edwards, Graham, Matthew Henry, William Law, Milton, Whitefield, Wesley, Elliot...
No, we don't need us no Christian books. 'Tain't no profit in it 'tall.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/20/2008 5:48:35 PM
|
|
|
Teaching_The_Way
Posts: 58
Joined: 4/18/2006
From: Teaching The Way Ministries
Status: offline
|
I like your ICON, Go McCain and Palin! :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
or just check your church or local public library. I guarantee you can find a copy. It's a decent book.
_____________________________
http://teachingtheway.net/
If our opinions does not line up with
the scriptures, then our opinions are
dead wrong! Gods words are more important
than our opinions!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/21/2008 2:57:18 AM
|
|
|
GodsMusic
Posts: 237
Joined: 4/3/2006
Status: offline
|
Man Jimbo, how do you get by with all the personal attacks on NMC without get the attention of the mods?
BTW, NMC is making some very good points. Is that why Jimbo has to resort to personal attacks?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/21/2008 3:33:02 AM
|
|
|
RJR_fan
Posts: 827
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
I could safely say that none of them had been discipled or catechised.
I find it interesting that you put those two words together. I've been neglecting the WSC with my girls recently, and would do well to get back to that noble summary of Christian thought and action.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/21/2008 10:09:32 AM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Man Jimbo, how do you get by with all the personal attacks on NMC without get the attention of the mods?
BTW, NMC is making some very good points. Is that why Jimbo has to resort to personal attacks?
GodsMusic,
I hold every teaching up to the lense of Scripture, so if there are any “good points”, I thank and praise God for the truth through His Word.
Now for some more false teaching via PDL:
“The Nine Spiritual Temperaments” from Chapter 13 of ““The Purpose Driven Life”
Naturalists are inspired to love God out-of-doors, in natural settings.
Sensates love God with their senses and appreciate beautiful worship services that involve their sight, taste, smell, and touch, not just their ears.
Traditionalists draw closer to God through rituals, liturgies, symbols and unchanging structures.
Ascetics prefer to love God in solitude and simplicity.
Activists love God through confronting evil, battling injustice, and working to make the world a better place.
Caregivers love God by loving others and meeting their needs.
Enthusiasts love God through celebration.
Contemplatives love God through adoration.
Intellectuals love God by studying with their minds.”
Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15) Please compare with:
John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:10-14
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
I Jn 2:3
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
I Jn 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Again, please compare the words of Christ, and what He gave the apostles to write through the Spirit. Please notice that the true teachings of God through His Word have nothing in common with “The Nine Spiritual Temperaments” via the PDL.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/21/2008 10:17:41 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Please note that the true teachings of God through His Word contradict none of “The Nine Spiritual Temperaments” via the PDL.
Please also note that all of the Bible is true and comes from God but that not all truth is contained in the Bible. Even Paul confirms that when he removes any excuse for not believing in God. (See Romans 1)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for deceiving Novice Christians! - 10/21/2008 11:34:41 AM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1165
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Please note that the true teachings of God through His Word contradict none of “The Nine Spiritual Temperaments” via the PDL.
Please also note that all of the Bible is true and comes from God but that not all truth is contained in the Bible. Even Paul confirms that when he removes any excuse for not believing in God. (See Romans 1)
I’ll respond when you provide Scripture to coincide with your opinion.
Regarding truth as it pertains to sound doctrine, God’s Word disagrees with your statement, “ not all truth is contained in the Bible”.
It is written:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
If we really believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (as I and mine do), then we will believe that Scripture contains every single truth we need “that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped”.
Thank you.
< Message edited by notmycity -- 10/21/2008 11:41:44 AM >
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
