Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (Full Version)

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bluestone -> Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/14/2008 7:42:32 PM)

First, this is not a condemnation of Messianic Jews. It is not a condemnation of those who call themselves Messianic Gentiles/Christians , although the term seems redundant.

I am becoming alarmed at some of the lengths people seem willing to go to in order to be perceived as “Jewish”, and at some of the teachings coming out of the Messianic Movement among Gentiles. Some, but certainly not all are teaching things that may be in line with Judaism, but certainly not with Christianity.

Some examples:
Locally, in my community, a man in his mid- fifties became part of a Messianic group, and had himself circumcised.

Some are denying the Trinity.

Most deny what they term “replacement” theology, which places Christians, not Jews, as God’s chosen people, since the Jews denied Him as Messiah.

Some teach that Gentiles believers are wild branches grafted in, but will always be wild, never truly a part of the vine.

The belief that righteous Jews are to lead righteous Gentiles by example into the proper expression of worship, not the other way around.

Why do some (but not all) Messianic Gentiles try so hard to appear to be something they are not? You are not Jewish, and the obsession with Judaism is just odd. Adopting Jewish customs when you are not Jewish , and keeping the jots and tittles of the law you have been set free from seems a bit overboard.

One Messianic author who has gone overboard (once again, in my opinion) is Lew White.
I have read a bit at his website after hearing him quoted in these forums, and find some of his teachings to be heretical, others just nutty.

So, if you are a Messianic and a gentile, what’s up with that? Why not just go to church with your fellow believers who are not Jewish?
If you are familiar with some of the teachings of Lew White, or have ideas about the beliefs I listed above, please discuss.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/14/2008 8:17:51 PM)

Whew, Blue! You hit hard! [:D]

I know that there are many things I believe in, things I do, things I study that you would not approve of or that you might even find appalling, so this thread just may be the the cooker for me! [:D] I do hope I lose no friends over this!

As a Messianic, bluntly, I have no problem with the guy who had himself circumcised. I just didn't feel like saying so. There is obedience for the sake of just doing what one thinks is right, and there is obedience for the sake of gaining something. There is no biblical precedent that says he should not have been circumcised, but there are biblical precedents which are clear that being circumcised will save no one and will not guarantee a higher place in the kingdom!

Regarding denying G-d the Father, G-d the Son, and G-d the H Spirit, that is a very serious issue. I will not, I cannot deny the Father, the Messiah, nor the H Spirit, but for me to claim I understand them would be a bald-faced lie. None of the explanations i have ever been given by anyone have ever worked. Not the egg, not the water, none of these common things can make me see them any more clearly: they are above and beyone our pitiful little explanations.

As far as replacement theology, I completely deny it. Christians have never and will never replace Jews. Christians have been grafted into the Vine and a real part of the Vine, but they have not replaced Jews. G-d has called out, and is still calling out, a people from the Jews who have and will take their place in that vine. He has not turned His back on the Jews. As they come to Messiah, as they call out "What are these wounds in Your hands?" and they understand that He received those wounds in the house of His friends, they will know and turn to Him. Further, if you will note in my signature, every one of us were adopted -- Jews and Gentiles: G-d has only ONE natural-born Son.

As far as believing Jews leading Gentiles to worship, the Bible clearly states that the time is coming when Gentiles will take hold of their tzitzit and ask to be led to worship. The gifts and callings of G-d are without repentance, and this is what G-d long ago called the Jews to do, but some have rejected that call. This started way back, around 70 c.e., and it has not stopped yet for most, but it will stop.

Regarding Gentiles trying to appear what they are not, I see that at times, but not often. What Christians see, and call "Gentiles trying to be Jews," is Gentiles with the desire to be obedient. There is a huge difference, but sometimes, we have to ask in order to know which is which.

Again, I know nothing about Lew White. I only heard of him in the last few hours. I have not read what he has written.

Why can I not go to church and fall in line with my family who are Sunday-attending Christians? Because I have not yet seen where G-d changed the day of worship to Sunday. Because I have not seen where G-d said, "Okay, everybody, out of the pool! No more Sukkot, no more Chanukkah, no more Pesach! It's Christmas and Easter from now on! Now, go out and buy tinsel and bunnies!" What I have read is Messiah continuing practicing Torah. I have read about the disciples continuing doing Torah. I have read that both Messiah and the disciples continued to observe the Sabbath and the other holy days. Messiah said for us to follow Him, so I want to follow Him. The question is not "What Would Jesus Do"; it is What Did He Do?

But the bottom line is that I love my family who are in Messiah. This is the way I live my life. I am not going to sit about condemning you because you don't do things as I do them. I am free to worship according to what I understand; so are you, if you truly know Him and are worshiping Him. Does He love me more? I think NOT!



landabee -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/14/2008 9:34:59 PM)

quote:

I do hope I lose no friends over this!


I would think that highly unlikely, as you walk your walk in humility. You often write posts with such insight and grace to really give me pause and appreciation and clarity.

quote:

As far as believing Jews leading Gentiles to worship, the Bible clearly states that the time is coming when Gentiles will take hold of their tzitzit and ask to be led to worship.


What is "tzitzit", please? I do not know this term.

quote:

Regarding Gentiles trying to appear what they are not, I see that at times, but not often. What Christians see, and call "Gentiles trying to be Jews," is Gentiles with the desire to be obedient. There is a huge difference, but sometimes, we have to ask in order to know which is which.


Just as I am impressed that your expression is genuine........... I have grave doubts regarding others. The worship of the One True God seems to be replaced with the worship of "jewish-ness". If that makes any kind of sense.


ex: IRL I know folks whose whole way of speaking has moved towards yiddish and Jewish terms. Outside of observing dietary law.........they have gravitated to Jewish cuisine. It is odd.

There are a few others I know IRL and on the board that seem genuine and well studied and show grace. And then there are the others.
quote:


But the bottom line is that I love my family who are in Messiah. This is the way I live my life. I am not going to sit about condemning you because you don't do things as I do them. I am free to worship according to what I understand; so are you, if you truly know Him and are worshiping Him. Does He love me more? I think NOT!




Well said, Abiyah. I have never read a hint of condemnation in your posts of those that do not feel impressed to do as you do in your walk.



bluestone -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/14/2008 9:55:42 PM)

Covannmeshuga,
you have posted clear explanations, and I thank you. [:)]

I have a young friend who just in the past couple of months has begun attending messianic worship, and has begun to change dramatically. The language, dropping letters in names of our Lord when spelling, letting it be known she really wishes she were a Jewess. She also said their congregation had lost quite a few Messianic Jews who were disturbed by the influx of Gentiles.



Ezra -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/14/2008 10:18:33 PM)

quote:

Why do some (but not all) Messianic Gentiles try so hard to appear to be something they are not? You are not Jewish, and the obsession with Judaism is just odd. Adopting Jewish customs when you are not Jewish , and keeping the jots and tittles of the law you have been set free from seems a bit overboard.


Let's face it. Some people prefer bondage to freedom. Let them have it.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/14/2008 11:42:27 PM)

Well, I thank you all. You have been kind, and it is appreciated. Deeply. [sm=icon_smile.gif]

quote:

Original: Abiyah
I do hope I lose no friends over this!


quote:

ORIGINAL: landabee
I would think that highly unlikely, as you walk your walk in humility. You often write posts with such insight and grace to really give me pause and appreciation and clarity.
You are king. I worry about this. Have I said too much. Have I been kind. Have I shamed my L-rd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
As far as believing Jews leading Gentiles to worship, the Bible clearly states that the time is coming when Gentiles will take hold of their tzitzit and ask to be led to worship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: landabee
What is "tzitzit", please? I do not know this term.

You have heard of fringes. Tzitzit are fringes by their more common Hebrew term.
quote:

Original: Numbers 15:38
"Speak to the sons of Israel, and tell them that they shall make for themselves tassels R462 on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a cord of blue.
These are what the lady with the issue of blood touched.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zechariah 8
20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, '{It will} yet {be} that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. 21 'The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will also go." 22 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.' 23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'""
Some versions say the "hem," some use other terms for the edge, where tzitzit are placed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Regarding Gentiles trying to appear what they are not, I see that at times, but not often. What Christians see, and call "Gentiles trying to be Jews," is Gentiles with the desire to be obedient. There is a huge difference, but sometimes, we have to ask in order to know which is which.


quote:

ORIGINAL: landabee
Just as I am impressed that your expression is genuine........... I have grave doubts regarding others. The worship of the One True God seems to be replaced with the worship of "jewish-ness". If that makes any kind of sense.

Unfortunately, it makes a lot of sense, Landabee, and it is a shame. I know that there are some Gentiles who believe that they can be turned into a Jew by study, doing certain things, giving the right answers, and some ceremony. I simply don't agree. I believe that when we are called to Messiah, we are what he made us, and we should not try to become something else or pretend to be something else. His book says that He calls both, Jew and Gentile. In fact, the Apostle Paul wrote that it does not matter what we are: those who are His are His.

quote:

Original: Landabee
I know folks whose whole way of speaking has moved towards yiddish and Jewish terms. Outside of observing dietary law.........they have gravitated to Jewish cuisine. It is odd.

There are a few others I know IRL and on the board that seem genuine and well studied and show grace. And then there are the others.

When we are among those in our traditions, we use those terms. Such terms cut to the chase; they are clear among those who commonly understand and use the terms; they are easier to use than using a string of words, or a long phrase, when one can get by with a single word. It's kind of like the term sanctification: you know what it means among your own, but when you are a Baptist talking to a Holiness person, you may use another word, just to be clear.

I am not a proponent of publicly using words & terms that have a meaning others don't readily understand. It happens sometimes, but I don't think it is something to strive for. I think that it is better to be readily understood when communicating. Sure, I say Messiah, not Jesus, but Messiah is a term almost any believer readily understands, without needing an explanation. But yes, I avoid using the Name I use for Messiah here, because (1) it can cause confusion, and (2) some people see it as pretentious. Again, I would rather be clear.
_____________________________

quote:

Original: Bluestone
Covannmeshuga,
you have posted clear explanations, and I thank you.

I have a young friend who just in the past couple of months has begun attending messianic worship, and has begun to change dramatically. The language, dropping letters in names of our Lord when spelling, letting it be known she really wishes she were a Jewess. She also said their congregation had lost quite a few Messianic Jews who were disturbed by the influx of Gentiles.

Thank you, Blue. You are appreciated.

With regard to your friend, I think that all Messianics fall into being overzealous for Messianism when we ought to be zealous for the L-rd. I know I did. Badly. You have all said kind things, but you were not on CW back when I got kicked out of my church. I was angry. I was bitter. I was out to have my way no matter whose toes I stepped on, and I stepped on plenty. The CW Powers had to reel me in many, many times, and the people here had to "gentle" me like I was a wild horse. But I learned in time. And when I settled down, CW people basically forgot and accepted me as I became.

Some day, I hope your friend learns to be satisfied being the person G-d created her to be.
_____________________________

quote:

Original: Ezra
Let's face it. Some people prefer bondage to freedom. Let them have it.

I have learned to appreciate you, Ezra -- like it or not! [:D]
_____________________________


Again, thank you, all, for your kindness.



bluestone -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 8:17:40 AM)

So do messianic gentiles no longer consider themselves to be Christians?

Do they believe in the Trinity?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 8:35:58 AM)

Unfortunately, I can't answer for all Messianics, only for myself, Blue.

Many Messianics say they are Christian; some don't. I avoid the term and have since before I found Messianism. My reason is the mainly that the term, in my experience, is so nebulous: so many people have so many different meanings for it that it has no sure definition.

I know that people like to use the term because it is used three times in most English Bibles, but I prefer the term "believer," which happens to be used 11 times in some English Bibles, if that makes any difference.

Like Christians, some Messianics believe in the Father, the Son, and the H Spirit, and some don't.



bluestone -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 9:04:49 AM)

Are congregations governed in some way? are they connected? (like a denomination)

I guess I get the idea that any Jew that becomes Messianic can call himself a rabbi and start a congregation, without the intense study an actual non messianic rabbai goes through.



mcleod -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 10:21:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

Covannmeshuga,
you have posted clear explanations, and I thank you. [:)]

I have a young friend who just in the past couple of months has begun attending messianic worship, and has begun to change dramatically. The language, dropping letters in names of our Lord when spelling, letting it be known she really wishes she were a Jewess. She also said their congregation had lost quite a few Messianic Jews who were disturbed by the influx of Gentiles.


Sammy Davis did it many years ago so she could do it to.



doinkdom -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 10:28:57 AM)

Well, I'm going to enter in here and zealously show my ignorance.[8D]

There are Jews who are well...Jewish by nationality or race, some practice their beliefs and some don't.
When these Jews become regenerated believers, they are now Messianic Jews, yes?

So...a non-Jew who calls themselves Messianic is ??? what ??? a believer who has adopted the traditions of the Jewish culture?

It was kinda strange...we had a guy visit our group who said he was Messianic. But he's not Jewish, but actually German. So...he has adopted the traditions of the Jews, but he is still a non-Jew so no matter what he does, he's still gentile.

I'm confused[&:]



bluestone -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 10:32:54 AM)

I lack understanding too. If you follow Christ, you are a Christian. So are you rejecting Christianity to become a pretend Jew?

I don't mean that to be offensive, but from the outside looking in it appears that way to some.



Kat_D -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 11:00:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

Well, I'm going to enter in here and zealously show my ignorance.[8D]

There are Jews who are well...Jewish by nationality or race, some practice their beliefs and some don't.
When these Jews become regenerated believers, they are now Messianic Jews, yes?

So...a non-Jew who calls themselves Messianic is ??? what ??? a believer who has adopted the traditions of the Jewish culture?

It was kinda strange...we had a guy visit our group who said he was Messianic. But he's not Jewish, but actually German. So...he has adopted the traditions of the Jews, but he is still a non-Jew so no matter what he does, he's still gentile.

I'm confused[&:]


Frankly, most Jews don't get it either. My daughter (who converted to Judaism) and her Dad (who is Jewish) can't understand Gentiles joining Messianic Jewish congregations either...they call them "Jewish Wannabe's."

Signed,

I'm confused too![&:]



stellaluna -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 11:13:28 AM)

It's probably best to think of Messianic as a denominational moniker. Of course they are Christian, but not Baptist or Methodist or Lutheran. All denominations have traditions aside from other denominations and there is no confusion. There are some renegade Messianic congregations that have beliefs outside the norm, but most don't. Most believe in the Trinity, etc.

Personally, the longer I'm a Christian, the more I'd rather be known as a "believer" or "follower of Christ." (And that's usually what I tell people.) Too many people give "Christian" a bad name.



drfuss -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 1:27:04 PM)

drfuss: In my Bible study class, there is a man who was born and raised a Jew. As an adult, he became a Christian. Last Sunday he made some remarks indicating that Messianic Jews are not really Christian. After class, I approached him about it and indicated that I thought at least some Messianic Jews were Christian. He agreed with me that it could be.

My impression was that he no longer considered himself a Jew, But a Christian. I do not know what relationship he may have with his Jewish family.

Are there many Jews that desert their hertige when they become Christians?



WesP -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 1:47:37 PM)

quote:

Are there many Jews that desert their hertige when they become Christians?


That would be the flip-side of the confusion. Why would a Protestant Christian, etc. desert their heritage? KWIM? I think it is great to learn about Jewish heritage because it helps to understand much of the bible. By the same token, I would not be comfortable trying to embrace Jewish heritage to denote my religious beliefs. Please, I do not want anyone to misunderstand. This is NOT a judgment of Messianic congregations or their members. It is just my perception and how it relates to ME.

All in all, it really does not matter regarding salvation. True Messianics are Christians (followers of Christ) just as we are. I know Covaan said she avoids that title, so I was trying to clarify. I suppose it is just a matter of how we are called to Him.



stampinlady -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 1:50:19 PM)

Read Galations [;)]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 1:58:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
Are congregations governed in some way? are they connected? (like a denomination)

Just as in the Christian church, some are governed and some are not, some are connected and some are not. But then, again, what if the governing group makes a decision to teach something unbiblical. Sometimes, the Messianic groups that recognize this will have to walk away from the umbrella.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
I guess I get the idea that any Jew that becomes Messianic can call himself a rabbi and start a congregation, without the intense study an actual non messianic rabbai goes through.

Make that any Jew or Gentile who wants to have followers, and that will be closer to the truth. This drives some of us completely nutzoid. It is sad. I will not call anyone "rabbi," unless I know they have done the study and they follow a straight biblical line. Period. And it I called one of my leaders "rabbi" to his face, I would be immediately corrected. If I called one "rabbi" while in a group of others from my shul, they would laugh, because they would know I was joking.

However, if a Messianic group functions this way, I will not verbally criticize. I am not a part of their group, so I don't know their reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom
When these Jews become regenerated believers, they are now Messianic Jews, yes?

Some call themselves that, and some call themselves Christian.
quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom
So...a non-Jew who calls themselves Messianic is ??? what ??? a believer who has adopted the traditions of the Jewish culture?

A Gentile who calls her/himself Messianic is Messianic, like a Jew who calls her/himself Christian is Christian. The extra word addition, Jew, creating Messianic Jew is unnecessary. Where I worship, although I have heard no one verbally say so, it would be redundant to say one is a Messianic Jew, if one began Messianism as a Jew. My shul's people take very literally the Scripture which says not to make distinctions among the congregation. "There is no male, female; no Jew, Gentile."

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom
It was kinda strange...we had a guy visit our group who said he was Messianic. But he's not Jewish, but actually German. So...he has adopted the traditions of the Jews, but he is still a non-Jew so no matter what he does, he's still gentile.

He has merely worships as a Messianic, then. Nothing more. It is just like you -- you were an unbeliever, then you believed. You then took on Christian ways. Same thing, in analysis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone
I lack understanding too. If you follow Christ, you are a Christian. So are you rejecting Christianity to become a pretend Jew?

I know that this is what many Christians think, but it simply isn't so for all Messianics. (And you are not offensive to ask; all questions are good, because they lead to at least some understanding on some level.)

But no, people should not become Messianic in order to pretend to be Jews. That would be silly. We see them, believe me! And when I do, I wonder what would happen if direct and open persecution of Jews became dominant in their country. No, I don't wonder. I KNOW that their prayers, siddurs, mezuzzahs, tzitzit, beards, sidelocks, black hats, and "synagogues" would disappear so fast that it would make everyones' heads swim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D
can't understand Gentiles joining Messianic Jewish congregations either...they call them "Jewish Wannabe's."

Again, that is the case with some but not with all.

I am Messianic for some very simple reasons. I asked some very basic questions, and the churches could not answer them. Most of the questions I asked are answered in my first post in this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stellaluna
It's probably best to think of Messianic as a denominational moniker.

Nailed. Exactly.

With regard to the questions about Messianism:
While Messianism is as old as the Apostolic Scriptures, modern Messianism, as a movement, is new. I would suggest that we look back at Christianity as it was beginning, as the Apostles were dying of old age. They first called a segment of the believers in Messiah "Christians" in derision. They saw them as divisive, because while they were initially worshiping with other Jews, they were inviting Gentiles who hadn't a clue into the synagogues, to worship with them there. It caused such division that the believers in Messiah were asked to move on, when they refused to support other Jews in their fight against Rome and refused to pay the tax leveled on Jews, seeking an out through their differing religion.

Now, just imagine your individual church, as the only one in your church organization, inviting a large group of newly converted Theravada Buddhists, with their saffron robes and their traditions of magic, meditation, and prayers, unto your church. There would be confusion for quite awhile. They would not know how to worship with you in your tradition, so they would worship the best they could, only knowing their own tradition.

This is the kind of stuff the synagogues went through with the Christians. And now, this is what you are seeing with the return to Messianism.



WesP -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 1:59:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stampinlady

Read Galations [;)]


Are you referring to Chapter 2 where Paul said:

quote:

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?


or the remainder:

quote:

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"


or is it something else?



doinkdom -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 2:11:25 PM)

Thank you being so patient in explanation. I think I'm starting to get a clue.

Is there anyone here who is Jewish by nationality/race and also a follower of Christ?



rcjames -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 2:23:02 PM)

Gentile trying to become Messianic Jews; does not compute.

I have met a few of these poor misguided souls, thinking that using a prayer shawl or wearing a beanie will make them more Spiritual.

But with all humility I say that a Gentile cannot out Jew a Jew no matter how hard they try.

Thanks
RC



Consecrated2God -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 3:35:18 PM)

From what I've observed, it seems to me that Gentile Messianics think that there's a more completeness to the gospel if it's understood from a Jewish viewpoint. It adds depth and understanding to parts of Christianity. For example, without the Passover as a backdrop for our Communion, we often don't really understand the fullness of what Communion means. There is a cultural background there that can be very enlightening.

I'm not Messianic, but I do appreciate a lot of those cultural elements for educational reasons. We do celebrate Passover because we learn so much from it. I also appreciate a lot of their cultural practices just because they are beautiful. I love Jewish dancing, for example. It's part of our heritage, too.

I am concerned that some in the movement are trying to keep the law, though. I had a friend who went to a Messianic church for awhile, and she left because they "went Moses" as she calls it.



landabee -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 4:36:27 PM)

quote:

I am concerned that some in the movement are trying to keep the law, though. I had a friend who went to a Messianic church for awhile, and she left because they "went Moses" as she calls it.


I have the same concerns.

"went Moses" [:D][:D][:D]

I agree with Lisa that learning and a better understanding the OT and symoblism in reference to Jesus brings a beautiful clarity of what He did and why He came............and what that means to mankind.



Kath -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 6:56:13 PM)

Do Messianics consider themselves to be Protestant?



LBolt -> RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? (8/15/2008 7:57:17 PM)

quote:

Do Messianics consider themselves to be Protestant?


No.

I've been in Protestant Christianity for almost 26 years...I'm 32 years old and I've had more questions answered in 1 year and some months than in my 26 years in Protestantism.

To me, the "OT and NT" connect better and I have more reason to read the words of the prophets. I read them before but they appeared so disconnected on certain subjects because I felt they did not pertain to me. I don't want to just learn the symbolism of the OT...but embrace those aspects that pertain for us today.

quote:

I am concerned that some in the movement are trying to keep the law, though.


There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Law or Torah and grace and it's relevance or perceived lack of relevance today in much of Christiandom. One would have to seriously commit some time in studying history and customs to find out why we perceive the Torah in such a negative light. It was a hard, painful but glorious process for me. What I'm discovering is that the writings of the apostles and NT authors were in reality teaching Torah. BTW, Torah comes from the root word Yarah, and it means "to point to", Torah means God's teachings and instructions in a nutshell.
Knowing what I know now, when I hear people say that God's teachings and instructions are done away with, I know they have grossly misunderstood Paul's words.

From those I've encountered (we are a huge minority where I'm from) I have not encountered a lot "quacks." I have seen one congregation where the pastor, who is a Jew feels that a non-Jew is not permitted to read from the Torah scroll. This, IMO is outright crazy and separatist. As if someone's Jewishness grants them special priveleges. There are some Messianic teachers who feel that non-Jews are only to observe the "Noachide Laws" (taken from Genesis and Acts 15) and don't have to keep Sabbath or observe the dietary laws...Again, I see this as elitism and separatism.



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