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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 3:16:21 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Discipleship today is a lot different than what it was in the days when the Master walked the earth.
This is so true, but my observation is that there is a "lack" of discipleship
in todays christendom.
What a rude awakening most of us will have when the Messiah finally returns.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 3:17:12 PM
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bluestone
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Jesus was a man. If we are to be Christ like, what does that imply for women if we take the verse out of context in that type of extreme?
To be Christ like does not mean to imitate Jews by any measure.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 5:11:41 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4254
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Do you require gentiles to be circumcised to be a Chrstian?
Do you think to be Christian that a gentile must keep the Jewush feasts?
Do you think to be Christian that a gentile must use a prayer shawl?
Etc. Etc.
Just wondering what hoops that you think a gentile Christian has to jump through to be accepted as a Believer by God.
In my time spent in a Messianic synagogue, no one was required to do any of that. I think people are getting hung up on the idea that you have to do something or you are compelled to do certain things as a Messianic, but my experience is that is simply isn't true.
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 5:13:07 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
In my time spent in a Messianic synagogue, no one was required to do any of that. I think people are getting hung up on the idea that you have to do something or you are compelled to do certain things as a Messianic, but my experience is that is simply isn't true.
So Messianics do not keep the Torah?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 5:23:51 PM
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LBolt
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No...we don't impose things on people and say "you aren't saved if you haven't..." Circumsion is for those who are ready. It toke Avraham 24 years... Besides, most of us were already circumcised as an infant... 
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 5:24:47 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4254
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They keep Torah as much as they want or are able to. No one is required to. My family did not.
(Based on my synagogue. Can't speak for everyone.)
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 6:50:00 PM
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wshepherd
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
If that is your goal, then I would encourage you to read the Pauline Epistles and the Book of acts where the Jews were told not to try and Judaize the gentiles; that it was not necessary for gentiles to be Christians.
I have studied those books inductively and prayerfully, and obviously I see them differently than you do. It is not necessary for a gentile to become a Jew in order to be accepted by God, which is what the Judaizers were trying to say.
quote:
Just wondering what hoops that you think a gentile Christian has to jump through to be accepted as a Believer by God.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
The same as a Jew -- faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah.
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Wanda Shepherd
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 7:10:39 PM
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peacebringer
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I think the believers that are led in this direction and truely following God are operating out of there place in the Body. There is blessing in following Torah. Torah points to Jesus who fullfilled and was the embodiment of Torah. Now those that follow Torah are not pointing forward but pointing back.
Now just as in the rest of church there is those in center of truth and those off to the left and right. There are some who are denying Messiah and following rabbinics. These are wrong. There are those who only follow "Torah" in order to reach out to Jews, I believe this is also wrong. In praying over this, and I do have a friend who God has led in this direction, God has pointed me to different parts and some connection to the "tribe" of Levi as well. I haven't examined it more closely, but this is my initial take.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 7:12:27 PM
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wshepherd
Posts: 306
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Jesus was a man. If we are to be Christ like, what does that imply for women if we take the verse out of context in that type of extreme?
Yes, but who wants to take the verse out of context? Or to that extreme? Not me. I just want to know what it says and means.
quote:
To be Christ like does not mean to imitate Jews by any measure.
What is your definition of what it means to be like Christ? My definition is that I imitate HIM. I want to think like He does, and I want to do the things that He does. To me, part of that means learning to keep Torah because HE DID. God says Torah is "His Ways." So tell me why I shouldn't live according to His ways?
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Wanda Shepherd
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 7:35:24 PM
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bjay0801
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I agree, the bible does call torah His ways but I do know of some Messianic congregations that cause people to go astray. But then again I also know of a lot of churches that have helped people go astray so there are "None righteous, no not one." Most of us are just trying to do right in G-d's sight.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 7:56:05 PM
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bluestone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wshepherd
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Jesus was a man. If we are to be Christ like, what does that imply for women if we take the verse out of context in that type of extreme?
Yes, but who wants to take the verse out of context? Or to that extreme? Not me. I just want to know what it says and means.
quote:
To be Christ like does not mean to imitate Jews by any measure.
What is your definition of what it means to be like Christ? My definition is that I imitate HIM. I want to think like He does, and I want to do the things that He does. To me, part of that means learning to keep Torah because HE DID. God says Torah is "His Ways." So tell me why I shouldn't live according to His ways?
Christ did not use indoor plumbing..do you ? Do you cook your food as Jesus did? Not have your tonsils out because Christ did not? refuse to ride in a car and straddle a donkey instead?
You are clearly taking the verse out of the spiritual context and putting it in a cultural context. An ancient Jewish culture that people who are not Jews are NOT part of.
And do you ignore the rest of the New Testament, the writings of Paul where he is clear to not put yourself back under bondage?
Following Jesus spiritually is being Christlike. Not converting to quasi- Judiasm. That is just legalistic silliness.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 8:11:51 PM
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solarflare
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Christ did indeed follow the Law, but that was prior to His death. He is the fullfillment of the Law.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 8:26:03 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wshepherd
I have studied those books inductively and prayerfully, and obviously I see them differently than you do. It is not necessary for a gentile to become a Jew in order to be accepted by God, which is what the Judaizers were trying to say.
So you don't have to become a Jew, just act like you are a Jew?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 11:10:21 PM
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wshepherd
Posts: 306
Joined: 8/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Christ did not use indoor plumbing..do you ? Do you cook your food as Jesus did? Not have your tonsils out because Christ did not? refuse to ride in a car and straddle a donkey instead?
These things have nothing to do with Torah.
I have never seen anywhere in the Bible where there is a command that says "Thou shalt not use indoor plumbing." Or "Thou shalt not have your tonsils out." Or "Thou shalt not ride a car and shall straddle a donkey instead. Have you?
quote:
And do you ignore the rest of the New Testament, the writings of Paul where he is clear to not put yourself back under bondage?
When were you or I EVER in bondage to the law? When we were sinners we were the farthest thing from following it. So how were we ever under bondage to it?
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Wanda Shepherd
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 11:42:28 PM
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wshepherd
Posts: 306
Joined: 8/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Christ did indeed follow the Law, but that was prior to His death. He is the fullfillment of the Law.
Have you read that whole passage?
quote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stoke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Any one who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)
Do you know what the word "fulfill" means?
This is how Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines "fulfill" in Matthew 5:17:
quote:
"universally and absolutely, to fulfill, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment."
What does Jesus say about the one who practices and teaches the Law? What does He says about the one who breaks the Law and teaches others to do the same?
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Wanda Shepherd
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/19/2008 11:44:14 PM
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wshepherd
Posts: 306
Joined: 8/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So you don't have to become a Jew, just act like you are a Jew?
Thanks
RC
I believe I am acting like a child of God.
_____________________________
Wanda Shepherd
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/20/2008 12:19:30 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
Have you read that whole passage?
Hmmm........you know, I think I have 
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/20/2008 12:32:48 AM
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solarflare
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Well, what does "It is finished." mean? When Jesus fulfilled the law, he satisfied the need for a sacrifice ... there is no more need for sacrifices. Jesus is the final passover Lamb.
When you take Scripture out of context, you can end up with the wrong belief. When Jesus said that He had not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets he was addressing the fact that the Law God had given had been misquoted and misapplied throughout Israel's history. He, the only begotten Son of God, is the fullfillment of that Law. All your efforts to keep the Law is an effort to add to what Jesus has done. I suppose that will make you angry, but it is the truth.
You are certainly free to go ahead and observe all you want, but do not tell me that I do not understand what that Scripture means and ask me if I have read the whole passage. Thanks
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/20/2008 1:40:22 AM
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p31woman
Posts: 634
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From: Texas, and now South Dakota
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quote:
Following Jesus spiritually is being Christlike. Not converting to quasi- Judiasm. That is just legalistic silliness.
I guess to me it's much less strange for a follower of Jesus to practice the customs and observe the Biblical times and pray prayers that He, the apostles, Paul, et al., did than it would be for a follower to take on the customs and traditions of mainstream protestantism. But it's really all in what you're used to and comfortable with... and where G-d is leading you.
And of course there is legalism among certain Messianic congregations, just like there is legalism in certain churches and denominations.
quote:
In my time spent in a Messianic synagogue, no one was required to do any of that. I think people are getting hung up on the idea that you have to do something or you are compelled to do certain things as a Messianic, but my experience is that is simply isn't true.
Ditto.
For anyone interested, there is a fantastic sermon series on Ephesians HERE (scroll down to 3/1 for the first in the series). Rabbi Waldman covers the "one new man" concept extensively (especially the message from 5/17.).
_____________________________
So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/22/2008 2:58:06 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Do Messianic Jews desire to return to the sacrificial system? I know there isn't a temple...but if there was, would they participate in animal sacrifices? As a whole, no. ESPECIALLY the sin, guilt and Yom Kippur offerings. Yeshua/Jesus COMPLETELY covered all those sacrifices.
The Thank offering, the daily offerings, the grain, drink and heave offerings could continue as the death and ressurection of Messiah does not seem to be the same as those. If there were a temple (which there is not) many messianics both Jewish and gentile would not oppose those sacrifices.
As to the Yom Kippur sarifice, there is a story circulating supposedly from the Talmud, probably the Jerusalem Talmud tractate Yoma, that when the curtain was torn at Messiah's death, another was immediatly put up as they always had a spare, and one in process. The curtain was so heavy it only lasted a few years. The 2nd (new) was immediatly torn as well, and a 3rd was also just finished so it went up and was torn also. It also talks about the wool thread dipped in the Yom Kippur sacrifice blood which became white when the scapegoat died , meaning that God had accepted the sacrifice, stayed red from that time on.
I have read in the Mishnah that the Shekinah - God's manifest glory - left the Temple about 40 years before it was destroyed in 70 and hovered for about a year on top of the Mount of Olives.
All these things point to the Yom Kippur sacrifice (the only thing that happened behind that curtain) being nulified and superseded.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/22/2008 3:00:56 PM
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landabee
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From: Central Florida
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quote:
As to the Yom Kippur sarifice, there is a story circulating supposedly from the Talmud, probably the Jerusalem Talmud tractate Yoma, that when the curtain was torn at Messiah's death, another was immediatly put up as they always had a spare, and one in process. The curtain was so heavy it only lasted a few years. The 2nd (new) was immediatly torn as well, and a 3rd was also just finished so it went up and was torn also. It also talks about the wool thread dipped in the Yom Kippur sacrifice blood which became white when the scapegoat died, meaning that God had accepted the sacrifice. That stopped happening.
I have read in the Mishnah that the Shekinah - God's manifest glory - left the Temple about 40 years before it was destroyed in 70 and hovered for about a year on top of the Mount of Olives.
All these things point to the Yom Kippur sacrifice (the only thing that happened behind that curtain) being nulified and superseded.
Thanks for answering this question, DaveW. Very interesting.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/22/2008 6:27:28 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
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Ditto!!
DaveW, I love reading your posts...you type very insightful, practical Biblical information!!
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/23/2008 2:20:50 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3642
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From: a mother who let me live
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We got back tonight. Had a wonderful time. It was like a spiritual retreat without all the hoopla -- just the two of us. When I go camping, it is to sit in the camper, studying, with few interruptions. He hikes; I study. Well, it rained 2.5 inches during the first two days and rained all of the third, so we both did a lot of Bible study! It was great! He seemed to like it, too! He finally got to hike on the fourth day.
I studied Paul, his letter to the Galatians (thank you, stampinlady! ), some of Romans, and some other stuff. What a week!
Of course, while there, I thought a lot about what we have written here and about all of you, as the people I know only on CW. I thought about the fact that most of us choose our places of worship based upon our theology and our past experiences. I did that, too. If I had any inkling whatsoever that Messianism, as taught where I attend, was wrong, I would make heads spin with the speed of my heading out the door.  I am So Not Interested in just abiding by some theological idea! I am interested only in what the Bible says and what I must do to follow it.
Bless G-d, He is enough. He is everything. While we were away, many of the things my husband and I said to one another would cause us to break out in song -- just singing some melody that had a phrase one of us had just said or a song that we were reminded of. And here I go again. When I wrote "Bless G-d, He is enough. He is everything." I wanted to sing one of the old hymns:
"I need no other argument,
I need no other plea
It is enough that Jesus died
And that He died for me."
What a concept! Right out of the Book!
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
It was the ceremonial/civil law that Jesus did away with....which would include the sacrifices....
quote:
ORIGINAL: Can you help me out by giving Scripture?
I would really like to see that Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
. . . Hebrews 9 and 10 seem pretty clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin and that animal sacrifices are no longer needed, and that they never could take away our sins anyway.
I'm also pretty sure that one of the reasons the Christians were persecuted was because they were, according to the religious leaders, speaking against the temple and the laws of Moses. They broke away from their traditions. I would imagine that not sacrificing animals probably caused the religous leaders to be very suspicious of their group.
As for the Nazerite vow, could it have been a grain offering or another kind of offering? It doesn't say they sacrficed animals.
I am too tired tonight to stay too long, so I will get back to you on Hebrews and Christians speaking against the Temple and G-d's laws. But for now, regarding the Nazirite vow, you probably know by now that the vow required several sacrificed beasts, right?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluestone
Didn't Paul have an ongoing fuss with Jewish believers who were attempting to make Gentile converts follow the Jewish customs?
I think circumcision was on the list.
Waallll, he had a problem with some Jewish believers who were saying that unless Gentiles converted into Judaism (becoming part of the Circumcision), doing everything required, they couldn't be saved. Paul said that they were saved already, and that they would learn the rest of Torah as they continued learning on Sabbaths.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stampinlady
Didn't Jesus say, "It is finished?"
This is an excellent point to bring out, Stampin & Eathless. Can you check the Scriptures and let me know how this statement of His relates to an end to Torah? Again, in all seriousness, if someone can show me these things Scripturally (and I don't think I need to name them all!), I would leave Messianism.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
You can come teach here anytime. lol.
Thanks, but you wouldn't want that. I quit teaching in 1999, never to return.
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ORIGINAL: diddl2007
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Excellent.
quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
G-d knows my attitude ain't always what it's s'posed to be. Mine, too.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluestone
I just find it strange that non Jews go to such great lengths to embrace a culture that isn't theirs. You have seen something I just rarely see, Blue. Here's the thing: if you knew me in real life, you might think that I am "trying to embrace a culture that isn't [mine]," but I have written here, and said elsewhere, that I am Gentile. I eat kosher foods, but that isn't embracing Jewish culture; it is simply following the Word. I observe Sabbath, but that isn't embracing Jewish culture; it is simply following the Word. Sure, I have a mezzuzah on my doors, but that isn't embracing Jewish culture; it is simply following the Word. I observe the fasts (as much as I can physically) and feasts, but that isn't embracing Jewish culture; it is simply following the Word. I read Torah, in order to learn what sin is, but that isn't embracing Jewish culture; it is simply following the Word. This stuff is in the Bible, Blue. I have no problem doing it.
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ORIGINAL: RCJames
Do you require gentiles to be circumcised to be a Chrstian? Not the women!  Okay, seriously, no -- not in order to be a Christian.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RCJames
Do you think to be Christian that a gentile must keep the Jewush feasts? Personally, I think they are nuts not to! They are a great teaching tool, and I have No Clue why they wouldn't want to!
quote:
ORIGINAL: RCJames
Do you think to be Christian that a gentile must use a prayer shawl? No.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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