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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/15/2008 7:59:24 PM
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LBolt
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I share similar sentiments to Covaan, I just read her post.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 8:20:43 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I have been asked on CW a number of times if i am "a Jew." Years ago, I would answer, but I quit responding to that question. Perhaps this is a good time to respond.
My sister is the family historian, and some years ago, after learning I am Messianic, she said that we have a Hebrew heritage. My present husband does, too. However, it was quite sometime back for both of us, so according to the present-day definition of Jew, we are not Jews. I am quite satisfied with being the one G-d created me to be; as far as I am concerned, He called me as a Gentile.
My shul has no problem with Gentiles in their worship. I am not, in any way, ostracized for being who G-d made me to be. I am accepted, not limited, for who I am. I have been bat mitzvahed, and I was called to Torah. I would still be welcomed at Torah, but being dyslexic makes it very difficult for me -- it is very nerve-wracking to read publicly, so I don't.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I am concerned that some in the movement are trying to keep the law, though. I had a friend who went to a Messianic church for awhile, and she left because they "went Moses" as she calls it.
My friend  , I keep Torah as much as is possible for a modern American. I have no problem with it. I know that a lot of people call it the law of Moses, but G-d also called it His Torah, and He was the one who gave it for the people; Moses was just the conveyor.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
Do Messianic consider themselves to be Protestant?
I know that someone else has already answered this, but I struggle with this myself. Perhaps it is because I don't have a full understanding of exactly what a Protestant is, in modern usage.
According to my online dictionary, a protestant is "member of church rejecting papal authority." I most definitely reject papal authority -- for sure. Also, most Messianic shuls and synagogues came out of churches which came out of the Protestant movement. However, many Messianic have strongly and purposely distanced themselves from the churches, so it's hard to put us all under that umbrella.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 11:17:31 AM
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wshepherd
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
My impression was that he no longer considered himself a Jew, But a Christian. I do not know what relationship he may have with his Jewish family.
Are there many Jews that desert their hertige when they become Christians?
Any Jew will tell you that when a Jew becomes a believer in Jesus, s/he is no longer considered to be jewish. Judaism considers it incompatible for a Jew to be a believer in Jesus. And quite often, when a family member becomes a believer in Jesus, their families will disown them and have nothing more to do with them.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 1:08:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wshepherd
As a Gentile Messianic, I keep Torah also. God calls it "His ways," and since He never changes ...
So you do the whole eye for eye thingy, sacrificing animals, making the wonem stay out in the lawn mower shed during their monthly, etc.
Or am I missing something here?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 2:24:06 PM
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wshepherd
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So you do the whole eye for eye thingy, sacrificing animals, making the wonem stay out in the lawn mower shed during their monthly, etc.
Or am I missing something here?
Thanks
RC
You are missing a whole bunch.
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Wanda Shepherd
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 3:53:55 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wshepherd
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So you do the whole eye for eye thingy, sacrificing animals, making the wonem stay out in the lawn mower shed during their monthly, etc.
Or am I missing something here?
Thanks
RC
You are missing a whole bunch.
Well if you are keeping the laws of the Torah then those I mentioned and about 660 more are part of it.
How do you choose what laws to keep and what laws not to keep?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 5:58:07 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
Well if you are keeping the laws of the Torah then those I mentioned and about 660 more are part of it.
How do you choose what laws to keep and what laws not to keep?
Thanks
RC
This has been answered numerous times in the Law thread...
As far as some Messianics not believing in the trinity...there are alot of Apostolics who are Protestants who believe in "Jesus Only"... Some are a product of where they come out of. I'm not saying it's right...but how would you Bluestone reconcile the various beliefs in all of Protestantism? It can probably be the same in "Messianic Christianity, don't you think?
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 6:25:27 PM
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bluestone
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LBolt:
I do not consider non-trinitarians to be believers. Most denominations that teach oneness tend to border on culthood, IMO.
There are cardinal doctrines of Christianity. Rejecting them is rejecting Christianity.
The Trinity
Salvation by faith
The Sacrifice, Atonement, Propitiation through the blood of Christ.
The adoption of Believers. Not a second hand piece of vine stuck on the original, but an adoption that makes us co-heirs with Christ.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 7:10:54 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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My friend RC, whom I respect, who prays regularly for me and for my family, whose prayers I trust --
I know that your question was not to me, but I want to answer you.
I had written:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
I keep Torah as much as is possible for a modern American. I have no problem with it. I know that a lot of people call it the law of Moses, but G-d also called it His Torah, and He was the one who gave it for the people; Moses was just the conveyor.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RCJames
So you do the whole eye for eye thingy, sacrificing animals, making the wonem stay out in the lawn mower shed during their monthly, etc.
The reason for women being sequestered during their time of the month was because they were ceremonially unclean -- not physically unclean but ceremonially unclean. To touch a lady during this time rendered the toucher ceremonially unclean.
What made the people ceremonially clean? The ashes of the red heifer prepared and used properly. In order for this to be done, we need a red heifer, the Temple, an earthly priesthood, and sacrifice.
So who is ceremonially clean today? No one. We are all ceremonially unclean. From whom should the woman be sequestered, when there is no one ceremonially clean? We are all ceremonially unclean. Without the red heifer, the Temple, an earthly priesthood, and sacrifice, there is no reason to be sequestered.
No Temple, no sacrifice.
How do we choose which parts of Torah can be obeyed? We choose by those parts of Torah that can be obeyed.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 7:12:01 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
This has been answered numerous times in the Law thread...
Well we are not on the Law thread, so I would like an answer as it applies to this thread; How do those who claim to follow the Torah choose which llaws to follow.
quote:
As far as some Messianics not believing in the trinity...there are alot of Apostolics who are Protestants who believe in "Jesus Only"... Some are a product of where they come out of. I'm not saying it's right...but how would you Bluestone reconcile the various beliefs in all of Protestantism? It can probably be the same in "Messianic Christianity, don't you think?
Well not exactly as the Jesus Onlies are considered a cult by most all other protestants.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 7:38:23 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
Well we are not on the Law thread, so I would like an answer as it applies to this thread; How do those who claim to follow the Torah choose which llaws to follow.
I think Covaan answered this in her last post...since there is a one stop thread on this I would like to respect this and direct matters there if you don't mind...
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 9:15:47 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
What made the people ceremonially clean? The ashes of the red heifer prepared and used properly. In order for this to be done, we need a red heifer, the Temple, an earthly priesthood, and sacrifice.
So who is ceremonially clean today? No one. We are all ceremonially unclean. From whom should the woman be sequestered, when there is no one ceremonially clean? We are all ceremonially unclean. Without the red heifer, the Temple, an earthly priesthood, and sacrifice, there is no reason to be sequestered.
No Temple, no sacrifice.
How do we choose which parts of Torah can be obeyed? We choose by those parts of Torah that can be obeyed.
Do Messianic Jews desire to return to the sacrificial system? I know there isn't a temple...but if there was, would they participate in animal sacrifices?
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/16/2008 10:43:05 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Just a reminder that if you want to discuss the keeping of the Law, it *must* be done in the one-stop thread.
Thanks.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/17/2008 8:17:12 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Do Messianic Jews desire to return to the sacrificial system? I know there isn't a temple...but if there was, would they participate in animal sacrifices?
My desire is for what Messiah desires for us.
Looking back at Acts 18:18 and Acts 21:21 - 26, if one understands the Nazerite vow, that one will see that sacrifices continued for believers after Messiah had risen. Of course, upon the destruction of the Temple in 70 c.e., they could not continue.
Looking ahead, Zechariah 14 is prophetic and has not yet been fulfilled. If one has read what the Feast of Booths means, they will understand that there is every indication there that the sacrificial system will be reinstated -- see verses 16 - 19.
The sacrifices were instated in order for the people to understand with clarity not only the seriousness of their sin but also the holiness of our Holy G-d and the severity of the sacrifice of Messiah on the cross. In the Torah, the Prophets, and the Poetry books, they looked forward to the sacrifice of Messiah.
When the Temple was destroyed, we lost the ability to personally understand. For example, we no longer seek out the most perfect little lamb from the flock on the 10th, to take it into our home and keep and feed it until the 14th for the Passover sacrifice. We don't take the lamb to the priest with the hundreds of others, quickly place our hands on the beloved little thing, and slay it, seeing its blood gush from its throat, then watch it become lifeless before us, only to be rushed off by the crowd to our homes, where it is prepared, cooked, and eaten.
People no longer take sin seriously. Too many no longer take the sacrificial death of Messiah seriously either -- it has become all about prancing lambs, egg-laying bunnies, and how much chocolate one can eat without a belly ache. The holiday is as empty as its chocolate bunnies. We have lost the picture. Completely. And since those who carry around their big Bibles never crack the Prophets, except to read a Proverb or two, or a comforting Psalm, modern Christianity has no clue what sin even is or how serious it is to G-d.
Regarding sacrifices, I am an Animal Planet-lover. Get those cat killers! Jail those people who train pitbulls to fight, throwing the whole lot of them in prison and throw away the key. Those farmers who starve and abuse their hogs and cows -- pen them up like they did their animals. I am one who cannot stand the idea of killing an animal. If I even think about meat, I can no longer eat it. But the days of Zachariah are coming. If and when Messiah requires a sacrifice, I will participate, if I am at the Temple in Jerusalem.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 8/17/2008 3:02:20 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/17/2008 10:33:46 AM
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rcjames
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I can see where a Jew that becomes a Christian may still desire to do some of the Jewush customs (those that are not contrare to the New Testament).
I personally cannot see any reason whatsoever for a gentile to try and be a messianic Jew, unless they were converted to Judaism before becoming a Christian.
There has always been (and increasingly moreso lately) an attempt to bring Jewish customs into the Church. Of course the Church at Galatia was having this situation also.
Blowing the shofar to start the servcces, wearing prayer shawls, wearing the little beanie thingy, keeping the feast etc. are some of the things that some gentile Christian folks want to do.
i perceive that it is just gentile Christians who may mean well, but are sorely confused.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 8/17/2008 6:19:08 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/17/2008 10:43:23 AM
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LBolt
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quote:
i perceive that it is just gentile Christians who may mean well, but are sorely confused.
Thanks
RC
Derrr!! Which way do I go @$%????
That you for another RC commentary!! 
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/17/2008 11:44:56 AM
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solarflare
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Why would Jesus require a sacrifice when He was the perfect sacrifice and the fullfillment of the Law? I'm stumped...... 
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/17/2008 2:24:42 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Well, RC, in answer to your post #45, I was completely confused and flabbergasted by the Christian church I was in, but in trying to extricate myself from it, I found that no churches in my area were any better, when it came to teaching the truth and upholding integrity. At least, where I am going, both integrity for the Scriptures and personal integrity are top -- demanded, taught, and lived out.
We worship G-d the Father who called Israel and has not denied that calling, for His callings are not repented, and all the foretelling texts affirm that He is not through with the nation Israel whom He called. We worship a Jewish G-d the Son who was born of a Jewish woman, who was circumcised on the eight day, who was in the Temple at twelve, who continued in the Temple, who never denied His Jewishness, who did everything in the (His) Torah, who is the Word, whose Word is to the Jew first then to the Gentile, who is returning not as a Gentile but as a Jew, who will demand that all nations come to Jerusalem to worship for the Feast of Booths (Sukkot).
Also, in my opinion, you misunderstand the Galatian problem. Maybe we should discuss that, if you wish to bring up any particular part. 
quote:
ORIGINAL by Solarflare:
Why would Jesus require a sacrifice when He was the perfect sacrifice and the fulfillment of the Law? I'm stumped......
Messiah was the Passover Lamb in His representation. There were many other sacrifices, many of which were not lambs. All sacrifices were "pictures," use by G-d to teach His followers. The people did the sacrifices, looking forward, because the sacrifices represented what they should think and see.
The Scripture is clear that we will do the Feast of Booths, or Sukkot. Sukkot is one of the observances that requires a trip by males to the Temple -- the one Temple, which can only be in Jerusalem, the place G-d chose. Sukkot is now a demonstration of what it will be like to live in the presence of the KING. Why in the world, then, would G-d demand -- at the time prophesied, when He is already reigning on the earth -- that we do a feast that is a demonstration of what it will when He is the reigning KING? Because that is what He had the prophet write, because that is His command, because it gives us that "picture" that He knows we need.
The only reason we have not been doing all the feasts all along is because of what happened after the Apostolic Scriptures were written, not because of what the Apostolic Scriptures say. Think about it. Throughout the Apostolic Scriptures, the Apostoles, and the Gentiles who joined with them, still did the observances and feasts. It was after the Scriptures had been completed that the church was formed, when the Greek teachers walked away from the synagogues, leaving their Jewish teachers. Then, they formed the church. Then, they welcomed division between the synagogue and the church. Then, they divided the "Old Testament" from the "New Testament." Then they threw out the observances and feasts, replacing them with pagan practices, in order to please the pagans they had brought into the church. Then, they took the past Roman ideal of making the Temple into a financial success and, using those same tactics, made the church a financial success. They used the same old Roman-forced tactics of politics in the Temple to support and push politics in the church.
What can we say? This is history, not supposition. This is what happened, not what someone in our day dreamed up.
If the church is going to be the "new testament" church -- really, in reality, in practice -- what should the church do?
- Blow shofars at the opening of every service. Probably not. Blow the shofar at appropriate times? Sure.
- Wear what RC calls "beanie thingy"? No, but if someone wants to, is there a biblical precedent that says not to? A "beanie thingy" does not a Jew make. But they are a later-than-Apostolic invention.
- Wear a "prayer shawl"? Well, no, but they are very practical. But again, they are likely a later-than-Apostolic invention.
- Pray the prayers? Yes. That is what was being done in the congregations in the times of the Apostles.
- Keep the Feasts and Fasts? Yes. That is what was being done in the congregations in the times of the Apostles.
- Read and follow Torah? Well, yes! Of course! That is what was being done in the congregations in the times of the Apostles.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Gentile Messianics: What's going on? - 8/17/2008 6:06:47 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I do have one more question. 1. I'm trying not to get it off topic, but I think this still fits here. 2. Is there any biblical evidence that the New Testament Christians practiced animal sacrifices before the temple was destroyed? I understand that they probably did do a lot of the 3. Jewish practices still, but 4. Paul was very adamant about preaching freedom from the law. 5. I seem to remember him saying something fairly harsh towards those that wanted to sacrifice animals again. I might be able to find it. I'll look for it after awhile unless RC knows. He usually knows his Bible.
Well, 1. my opinion is that you are not at all off-topic. For expediency, I have added red numbers to what I quoted from you.
2. The Acts passages I wrote about earlier -- let me find that and quote that here:
quote:
ORIGINAL: From post 42
Looking back at Acts 18:18 and Acts 21:21 - 26, if one understands the Nazerite vow, that one will see that sacrifices continued for believers after Messiah had risen. Of course, upon the destruction of the Temple in 70 c.e., they could not continue. A lot of people will not read or follow anything but the Apostolic Scriptures, yet the writers knew their readers knew the (for expediency, instead of writing out Torah, Prophecy, and Poetry, I will use the word Tanach) Tanach. The reason most people don't understand these passages is because the church has neglected the Tanach, refusing to teach it or see it as relevant. We miss so much, then.
Paul had taken a Nazarite vow Acts 18:18). One part of doing this is to cut one's hair short, then letting it grow until the vow has run its course. The vow had run its course when he went to talk to the other apostles in acts 21:21ff.
Many churches, to support their position that the sacrifices had ended, would rather accuse Paul and these apostles of doing wrong, but that is preposterous and, to me, horrifying. Why should we believe anything in the whole of the Apostolic Scriptures, if they are wrong in the Scriptures here? If that is so, we had best throw out everything after Malachi (in most English Bibles), using only the Tanach, as Messiah did, to prove Himself.
3. Certainly, they did. This was their culture. They did the feasts and fasts, they prayed the prayers. G-d calls these things His feasts and fasts; many today call them "Jewish," so it is understandable that you would. Had the Greek/Roman culture not thrown out and trampled those in the synagogues, we would be calling them our traditions.
4. Was Paul adamant about preaching freedom from the law? Yes. Freedom from the law, lower case, but not from the Law, uppercase. What we call "Law," uppercase, G-d called instruction. Not once did Paul go against what G-d had said and what Messiah had reiterated in Matthew (not one jot or title would pass away until heaven and earth pass away) that Torah continues. G-d said that the Torah would stand forever.
5. Let me know if you find it, Lisa. I certainly | | |
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