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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 8/25/2008 1:17:51 PM
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bettymackII
Posts: 1418
Joined: 4/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dandebm1
By the way I'm not a pre-trib rapture-ist to be clear .....those who are however are still my friends 
bettymackII .....thanks for the info on Famous Rapture Watchers.
You are very welcomed!
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/7/2008 6:57:37 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 389
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, colliefan!
You asked,
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
For those who hold to a pre-trib rapture, and a literal milenium, how can Jesus Christ preside over a return of the sacrifical system?
Heb 7:27 - 28 (ESV) 27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
Heb 9:11 - 12 (ESV) 11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,£ then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:23 - 28 (ESV) 23Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Heb 10:8 - 14 (ESV) 8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in £sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ£ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
The answer is to be found in the REASONS for sacrifice! There were several kinds of sacrifices made:
Wikipedia says under "Korban" ([link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban[/link]),
Future of sacrifices in Judaism
See also: Rabbinic Judaism
Since the destruction of the Temple, Judaism has instituted a system of study, public Torah readings, and prayers that connect the Jewish people to the Temple and the Temple service.
The prevailing belief among rabbinic Jews is that in the messianic era, the Jewish Messiah will come and a Third Temple will be built. It is believed that the korbanot will be reinstituted, but to what extent and for how long is unknown. Some biblical and classical rabbinic sources hold that most or all sacrifices will not need to be offered.
In the future all sacrifices, with the exception of the Thanksgiving-sacrifice, will be discontinued. (Midrash Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)
All sacrifices will be annulled in the future. (Tanchuma Emor 19, Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)
Then the grain-offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to God as in the days of old, and as in ancient years. (Malachi 3:4)
The majority view of classical rabbis that the Torah's commandments will still be applicable and in force during the messianic era. However, a significant minority of rabbis held that most of the commandments will be nullified in the messianic era, thus holding that sacrifices will not be reinstated. Examples of such rabbinic views include:
Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Niddah 61b and Tractate Shabbat 151b.
Midrash Shochar Tov (Mizmor 146:5) states that God will permit what is now forbidden.
There is no authoritative answer accepted within Judaism as to which mitzvot, if any, would be annulled in the messianic era.
These views are still considered to be valid options within classical and Orthodox Judaism. As such, Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, the first chief rabbi of Palestine, held that in the messianic era, only grain offerings ('menachot') will be reinstated in the Temple service. Most of Orthodox Judaism holds that in the messianic era, most or all of the korbanot will be reinstituted, at least for a time. Other Jewish denominations, such as Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism, hold that no animal sacrifices should be offered in a rebuilt Temple at all. See the article on the Temple in Jerusalem for examples of how prayerbooks by many Jewish groups deal with this issue.
The point is that sacrifices will NOT be for "salvation" (or rather God's justification of an individual); sacrifices will be for THANKSGIVING!
Now, Ezekiel DOES mention a burnt offering and a sin offering, but it will be a one-time event for the NATION of Isra'el! It will be the offering of the red heifer that will both purify the altar in the new Temple, and it will be symbolic of what Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or the Christ) has ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED for them. They will NOT be to take away sin or to atone for sin in any way.
Hope this helps.
Retrobyter
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/9/2008 1:06:33 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1956
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Don't most Jews envision a rebuilt temple yet in this age, before the return of Christ. This would be the temple that the Antichrist would desecrate.
The temple built by Christ in the messianic era occurs during the millennium, or at the beginning of this period and cannot be the temple that would be desecrated.
Any sacrifices would be those pleasing to God but certainly would not be sin offering...that has been accomplished by Christ.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/23/2008 7:09:53 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bettymackII
Interestingly, God's wrath actually begins in Rev. 6:17 ("the great day of his wrath is come") - after the sun/moon darkening in verse 12. Everyone agrees that Jesus places the same darkening after the tribulation in Matt. 24. So it seems to be clear that God's wrath doesn't begin until the very end of the tribulation. If the wrath of the tribulation isn't God's wrath, then it must be Satan's wrath, as found in Rev. 12:12 ("the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath"). An eye-opening article on Google entitled "Famous Rapture Watchers" quotes the greatest Greek scholars of the past as to how they interpreted Rev. 3:10 and its keeping from the hour of temptation which many have equated with the tribulation. I think we have to remember that there are different kinds of wrath in the NT and, of course, true believers will never ever experience God's wrath which is always reserved for only unbelievers. Even Scofield doesn't see a rapture in I Thess. 1:10 because he sees true believers waiting on earth until the "Second Advent" to earth at the trib's end, which means that the wrath at the second advent is second coming wrath on only unbelievers.
John is told to write about the things he has seen past, the things he sees present, and the things which he shall see future.
Rev 6 is after the start of things that he writes about which are of the future.
Last thing that happened was Christ's resurrection.
Next thing is the rapture of the church...
Are there any ministry leaders of note, or theologians, or anybody that even teaches the Word, that believes the GREAT TRIBULATION (Rev 7:14 things YET to come) has started already?
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/25/2008 4:39:40 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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My wife is wanting to have a garage sale soon.
She wants me to sell the hundreds of books I
have accumulated. I told her I don't think I
could sell them. I would be guilty of persuading
the victims of a sale with false doctrines.
I'll be cleaning out my library soon and transferring
the books to a good sized bon-fire.
Next week should settle this pre-trib stuff , but they
will just set other dates and sell more books.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/25/2008 5:15:31 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 389
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, cwb.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: bettymackII
Interestingly, God's wrath actually begins in Rev. 6:17 ("the great day of his wrath is come") - after the sun/moon darkening in verse 12. Everyone agrees that Jesus places the same darkening after the tribulation in Matt. 24. So it seems to be clear that God's wrath doesn't begin until the very end of the tribulation. If the wrath of the tribulation isn't God's wrath, then it must be Satan's wrath, as found in Rev. 12:12 ("the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath"). An eye-opening article on Google entitled "Famous Rapture Watchers" quotes the greatest Greek scholars of the past as to how they interpreted Rev. 3:10 and its keeping from the hour of temptation which many have equated with the tribulation. I think we have to remember that there are different kinds of wrath in the NT and, of course, true believers will never ever experience God's wrath which is always reserved for only unbelievers. Even Scofield doesn't see a rapture in I Thess. 1:10 because he sees true believers waiting on earth until the "Second Advent" to earth at the trib's end, which means that the wrath at the second advent is second coming wrath on only unbelievers.
John is told to write about the things he has seen past, the things he sees present, and the things which he shall see future.
Rev 6 is after the start of things that he writes about which are of the future.
Last thing that happened was Christ's resurrection.
Next thing is the rapture of the church...
Are there any ministry leaders of note, or theologians, or anybody that even teaches the Word, that believes the GREAT TRIBULATION (Rev 7:14 things YET to come) has started already?
Consider the PURPOSE for the "Rapture" (harpazo): WHY is anyone to be raptured?
Retrobyter
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/25/2008 7:02:00 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
http://home.flash.net/~evt/rapture.htm
quote:
Next thing is the rapture of the church...
We don't have long to find out, do we? lol.
I didn't read the flash site; can you give the reader's digest version?
quote:
rByter Consider the PURPOSE for the "Rapture" (harpazo): WHY is anyone to be raptured?
It's part of God's plan. I presume He's sparing us from the Great Tribulation.
I'm not sure what you're askin' tho'...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/25/2008 8:13:10 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 389
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Bob!
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Don't most Jews envision a rebuilt temple yet in this age, before the return of Christ. This would be the temple that the Antichrist would desecrate.
The temple built by Christ in the messianic era occurs during the millennium, or at the beginning of this period and cannot be the temple that would be desecrated.
Any sacrifices would be those pleasing to God but certainly would not be sin offering...that has been accomplished by Christ.
Bob
No, Orthodox Jews do NOT envision a rebuilt Temple built by anyone other than the Messiah Himself. Zionistic Jews would build a Temple presumptuously but those who are convinced that only the Messiah can build a Temple that would last forever, would not be so presumptuous!
I will present it to you again: What if Dani'el was NOT talking about an "antichrist" but was giving us prophecy regarding the first coming of the Messiah Himself? The Hebrew Tanakh is not as clear to us Westerners as other portions of Scripture, especially when involving prophecy!
Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Consider that the "he" that "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" is NOT an "Antichrist," but rather is YHVH's Representative Himself, Yeshua the Messiah! The subject in verse 26 is the Messiah! The "prince" is an object of the preposition "of", and the antecedent of the "he" CANNOT be the "prince" from verse 26! It's not grammatically correct, not in English and not in Hebrew (or Aramaic)! Yeshua caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease because God no longer accepted sacrifices and oblations when His Son gave His broken body on the Roman execution stake! Consider the following verses:
Matthew 27:50-51
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
KJV
Hebrews 10:10-18
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
KJV
Furthermore, Yeshua is the One who made Israel desolate!
Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
So, why do we assume so much negatives within Dani'el's prophecy?
Retrobyter
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/26/2008 12:04:10 PM
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bettymackII
Posts: 1418
Joined: 4/28/2007
Status: offline
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Hi Lapidoth, If the books you want to get rid of are pretrib books, keep them because when the trib starts they will be curiosities and collector's items. (Whisenant's wacko 1988 booklet, which was free, now commands a nice price!) If the books you want to get rid of are posttrib books, keep them because when the trib starts they will be valuable right away!
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/26/2008 1:35:41 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bettymackII
Hi Lapidoth, If the books you want to get rid of are pretrib books, keep them because when the trib starts they will be curiosities and collector's items. (Whisenant's wacko 1988 booklet, which was free, now commands a nice price!) If the books you want to get rid of are posttrib books, keep them because when the trib starts they will be valuable right away!
LOL. They are all Pre-Trib books.
Wonder what the value will be when proven completely false? lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... - 9/26/2008 1:57:50 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 499
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Orthodox Jews do NOT envision a rebuilt Temple built by anyone other than the Messiah Himself.
This is refuted by the events in History since the Sanhedrin reformulated themselves. They are planning to rebuild the Temple.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Consider that the "he" that "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" is NOT an "Antichrist," but rather is YHVH's Representative Himself, Yeshua the Messiah!
Oh really?
Show me any respectable theologian who says Christ's sacrifice for sin was only for seven years.
Jesus did not force anything through on the cross. He submitted to the Father's will and gave up His life when His work was finished.
The desolations spoken of in prophecy have not yet come to pass, but they will, and it will happen with a rebuilt Temple.
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