Hi, who was right husband or me? (Full Version)

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lightshineon -> Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 5:30:43 PM)

Ok, most of you have read of the panty scandal of 2008 of fourteen year old DD and friend childrens pastor, childrens pastors son, and another twelve year old boy. The odd thing is the childrens granny panties ( I wear them too) ok TMI, were showing big time infornt of me and another witness during vbs. I did not hunilate her though, and maybe I should not tell it now. Anyway, after ( some) healing has come, my DD went to youth group again last night. The youth pastor and wife were leading worship, and did not see this, but the two boys ( supposedly devestated) were laughing and point at DD, she ran out crying setting on steps, the went to get her older sister, who gave them a mean look, and they ran away. My DD also taold my husband he told DD to ignore it. I was working, or I ( my temper) would have went to the parents or to the class myself, and corrected the boys. I am a childrens teacher also, and have no problem, and besides I am so sick of this issue of lesbian acusations against DD. Last night she cried, and said he thought the were saying she was a discusting lesbian. That may have been real or imagined ( but they were laughing, pointing) I was at work so whispering, so learned of it later. I called the YP, and his wife recieved the call. My tone was matter of fact, but not hateful. I was furious at my husband, and I never get mad at him. I was mad the way he handled it. He isaid she needs to learn to stand up for her self, and not make her an emotional cripple. I said, " taking up for herself is not saying ignore it, it is putting a bandaide on a wound , that her dad and I as adults are having a hardtime dealing with this since May. It has hurt my who famiy spiritually the way things were handled. My DD is cutting, my husbands family is mad, DD told them, my parents are mad. They are not part of congergation. No one ever said when husband called pastor that they would talk to these boys? My husband said after my urging said he would talk to their parents. I can see my side, and a little of my husbands side. I am so sick of this issue, I could vomit, seriously. These llittle boys need talken to the bathroom, and their rear-ends spanked from the first. Ok I am venting, gossiping, whatever, but I need help for my Spirit, soul and relationship with the Lord. So, critics please I know that, I am not wanting sugar coating, but put yourself in my place and instead of critisam please I am asking as friends for kind Godly advice. I cannot go and cause discord in body, so you guy's are it. Thanks



clag4christ -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 5:55:34 PM)

Is your daughter in some kind of counseling for her cutting and other issues? Being teased for wearing granny panties won't cause a child to self mutilate. Can you afford to get your daughter new underwear that don't show through her clothing?

Have you asked the head pastor to take these parents and boys aside and talk to them about their attitudes, words, and actions and point out to them that they're not acting as Christ would act?



manda59 -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 6:31:28 PM)

If your dd is self-harming, she needs counselling.

However, she also does need to learn to stand up for herself. She is 14, and they're two silly twelve year old boys? I am sure you and she could come up with a few put-downs that she could use in times of need. My dd is only just 15, and she is certainly not afraid or intimidate by 12 yr olds!

If your dd was there for the worship, why was she even looking in the boys' direction? If she thought she might be distracted by them, all she needed to do surely was sit where she couldn't see them. Or even if she had seen them giggling, she could either have ignored them or given them a filthy look herself. Or just told them to "grow up".

She's not a child, and you marching in to rescue her is not going to help her to cope. Don't allow her to remain a victim, teach her to stand up for herself.



csl7037 -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 6:46:14 PM)

I agree with Manda but, at the same time, would have a very hard time taking my child to a church where she is allowed to be humiliated. Whether or not she is over-reacting, giving the little brats what they want by reacting, or needs to stand up for herself or not, this is absolutely unacceptable. Frankly, I would be horrified to attend a church where any child is allowed to run out of a youth worship service with hurt feelings, being called names, pointed and laughed at. IMO, these two boys need to be strung up...I could not subject my child to a youth group where that kind of behavior was tolerated (whether it was directed at her or not) - IT'S CHURCH!!! I am dumfounded that these two houligans are allowed to act this way.



GroupW -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 7:25:19 PM)

There is tremendous value in allowing a child to come to their own defense, but only as far as the child is capable of doing so. On the one hand, learning to take responsibility for your own emotional as well as physical health and safety is a key part of growing up. On the other, if we are being asked to do so but don't have the necessary skills, it just leads to feelings of inadequacy and disempowerment.

It's a very tough balance and one that my wife and I wrestle with often, although our issues are nowhere near as severe as what you and your family are dealing with.

The tricky part is coming along side to help defend and protect, but only as much as they really need you, leaving the lions' share of the responsibility with them to the degree that they are able to shoulder it. We can't ask more of our children than they have the skills to be successful. Just reading your email, I don't know who's right or wrong.

It's just blasted hard to know how much to come alongside and when to back off. Where the two of you ended up, though, seems on the face of it to be about right. At your encouragement, you talked to the pastor. You have a commitment to talk to the boys' parents. I think, for now, if you follow up on those two items you may have done what you can with respect to the boys & the church. After doing what you can there, the only other thing is to deal focus on your daughter and get a handle on all the other things that are going on.

At least for now. Accusations of lesbianism, laughing about underwear issues, etc are all profoundly inappropriate and need to be discussed with the boys by someone. Preferably the parents. Barring that, the pastor or staff member. As a last resort, you two. Hopefully you'll get an acceptable resolution through that process. If not, well back to square one I guess.

I'm glad the two of you seem to have ended up where you needed to be. I don't know which of you was closer to right or wrong, but together I think you got where you needed to be. That's the big thing. On our own, neither my wife nor I is likely to have the right answer. Together, though, we get a lot closer. Focus on working together to get there, and things will work out.

Promise.



lightshineon -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 10:29:38 PM)

quote]ORIGINAL: clag4christ

Is your daughter in some kind of counseling for her cutting and other issues? Being teased for wearing granny panties won't cause a child to self mutilate. Can you afford to get your daughter new underwear that don't show through her clothing?

Have you asked the head pastor to take these parents and boys aside and talk to them about their attitudes, words, and actions and point out to them that they're not acting as Christ would act?
[/quote]
LOL, not her underware the childrens pastors were showing ( granny panties) after making a major production of my DD bestfriends underware showing when she bent down. These two little boys made up lies of DD and Bestfriend being lesbians this was last May, it is problay on some of the old pages. She has never made peace with this, or her shame and anger ever left. My other two DD can handle things better, but these two twelve year olds spread that her bestfriend and DD were in a homosexual act in A\Sunday School class. It was proven wrong, and a lie by other children. It all amounted to her best friend bending over, and showing underware and crack ( sorry) accidently when she dropped a package of potato chips. It was kind of like the Salem Witch Trials. She harmed herelf once in May, but once is enough. I have found a good middle age Christian Counsler, a pastors wife, not my pastors wife. These two boys sought an oppurtunity, to hurt two girls that were not popular. It was a big deal, but DD, is still dealing with it. I am not saying my DD, does not have self-worth problems, I take it to Jesus everyday in prayer for herd, and other children, and people in general. Group W, thank you, sp much, it has been hard making her go back to youth group. One of these boys I have had in SS since five, he always was a trouble maker, and acted horrible. There was probaly a reason I was not there, upon reflection, usually go on WED. but had much work, at work to catch upon. Manda, I understand your point also, and I have let her defend herself, she used to have a spirit of " Kinda talk to the hand", but she feels defeated from issues at school, and church. You can see it in her shoulders being held down, and she does not smile anymore, Thank you all, I wish my Spirit was more kid as my husbands is. I stuggle with a temper, and it is a weakness, I pray about also. I hate it when people mess with my kids, and the evil one knows how to energize the flesh.



GroupW -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 10:36:36 PM)

Don't be too hard on yourself over the temper thing. Based on your email I wonder if you and your husband would have struck the compromise you did if your temper hadn't motivated the two of you a bit.

Sometimes my wife needs my temper to get her moving. Sometimes I need her cool head to keep me from being stupid. In the end, it's why we get married in the first place - we need each other.

I also think those "mama bear" instincts aren't altogether bad. There's a reason God gave us those.

Best wishes as you deal with all that. It's hard to see your kid suffer.



lightshineon -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 10:44:37 PM)

Thank You what wisdom and encouragement. It has made me see things in a different way.[:)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

Don't be too hard on yourself over the temper thing. Based on your email I wonder if you and your husband would have struck the compromise you did if your temper hadn't motivated the two of you a bit.

Sometimes my wife needs my temper to get her moving. Sometimes I need her cool head to keep me from being stupid. In the end, it's why we get married in the first place - we need each other.

I also think those "mama bear" instincts aren't altogether bad. There's a reason God gave us those.

Best wishes as you deal with all that. It's hard to see your kid suffer.



1mlasp -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 10:54:55 PM)

Hi,

The events here are a little hard to follow to be honest.

Why did you title this "who is right husband or me?" when this is about your daughter and how your church isn't handling a serious issue involving your kid? You say in your post both that you are furious with your husband and that you understand his position. That's confusing to me.

Your church is allowing your daughter to be bullied and abused. In other cases, it may be appropriate to tell your daughter that she needs to fight her own battles. Maybe your husband is saying this because he doesn't see this happening in your daughter's history. But in this case, adults need to intervene as her reputation is being attacked.



Hislittleone -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 11:48:17 PM)

If your daughter is having issues at school and at church, is cutting and is notably sad/depressed then I don't think she is in a very good position to defend herself. This would be a time when she needs your strength and protection.

Personally, I'd leave the church. They haven't handled this situation well at all. It's very sad. I'm sorry your dd is having such a rough time.

It's good that you've gotten her into counseling though. Make sure she keeps going. Maybe you could ask her counselor what she thinks would be the best way to handle the church situation (i.e. if it's healthy to make your daughter continue going to that church)?



MrsDC -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/14/2008 11:59:56 PM)

Lightshine, you said:
quote:

it has been hard making her go back to youth group.


Why do you feel like she needs to go back? Is she receiving sound teaching which is encouraging her to walk closer to God? Is she encouraging and being encouraged by fellow believers?

In all honesty, her youth group sounds just like the one I went to when I was in junior high. Horrible. Absolutely horrible. Because of the gossip and slander -- actually not as harsh as it sound like your daughter has been subjected to -- my sister walked away from the church 30 years ago and has never gone back.

Have you considered finding a group of more mature believers where she can actually grow spiritually instead of being attacked by immature...brats -- for lack of a better word?

Oh, BTW, I'd get rid of the "who's right" idea. Like GroupW said, when we get married we're now one. We're more likely to be right now!!!

Another "BTW" you might recommend your husband take your Dd out for ice cream or something. Sounds like they need to talk.

Just my 2 cents.
-- Rebecca



Zhi -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 12:02:22 AM)

While it's true that to some extent kids should learn to defend themselves, when kids are being ganged up on there comes a point when frankly they feel powerless to do anything about it, because it's simply too overwhelming to defend yourself against that many people. At that point, an adult really ought to step in.

How many "too many" is depends on the kid.

Furthermore, church is SUPPOSED TO BE a sanctuary. There is NO excuse, "learn to defend yourself" or otherwise, to allow that sort of garbage to go on without any adult intervention, if only to point that fact out. You wonder why so many young people get disillusioned with church and bail the second their parents no longer make them go, well, here it is. On both sides. For the bullies, church is nothing special, for the victims, church offers nothing good.



lightshineon -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 1:46:31 AM)

Thanks, my husband and I had a terrible fight last night, that is why I mentioned it. We never fight, in all our years of marriage this was the worst blow-out we had. We get along very well, different personalities, but it works. I am concerned that she will fall away, it has all been so horrible for all of us. My husband is an elder, and until husband corrected him, I was so bitter towards him ( I am sorry being truthful). I stlll along with DD, husband, and girls still having a tough time with childrens pastor, and co-childrens pastor. We have prayed, asking the Lord if we should leave. It might seem like a big Duh??, but do not feel released. A dear friend of mine, called my daughter the other night saying she had something for daughter, to show her how special she is. She felt led to out of the blue give her a beautiful card with twenty dollars. Maybe husband should take her out. I trutfully made things worse, for DD, I exploded when husband came in from elders meeting. I was hot, I mean livid, for that I am ashamed. Maybe something good can come out of this by faith. I really want to leave, I love the people, but am so disconnected. We have attended ten years. I also felt DD felt powerless I have felt that way My husband a logical thinker, would say " ignore it", my right brain would have said, I am going upstairs, kick rear, and take names. There have been much wisdom and perspective, which I am thankful for. I am sorry that others have fallen away, and been hurt all in the name of Jesus. I am being brutally honest here, hopefully not offensive. It is time I feel for us to be real
Thank You ALL



Row1 -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 8:58:35 AM)

if this child is cutting and having emotional problems, in my opinion, the family needs to be in counseling. all of you. there is something off-track in this family. it upsets me that the innocent child, who is having a difficult time going through these difficult ages, as been "singled out" as the crazy one.

unfortunately it is tough to find a counselor who 1. recognizes that this is a problem of the whole family not the child, and 2. is tough and skilled enough to have an impact on the whole family to make things better.

I say this because I do remember the other post all about the crack, plus we just went through these middle school years with my stepdaughter - wow it was difficult with all of this sensitive emotions insecurity, teasing, shifting alliances, etc.

the family support is what helps girls survive through this. just my opinion: if she is "cutting", it is time to figure out how the family can support her some more in these tough years.

just my opinion: You and your husband do not sound like a unified parenting team. Where does that leave your daughter? All alone. so, she is 'cutting' for emotional consolation of being alone, unsure, cast-out, etc., or else for some attention.

just my opinion: She is also at risk of NOT getting the Message from church, except maybe the message that it is the place where hypocrites get together and act like things are going well, when people are actually humiliating and harrassing each other. just my opinion: There is gonna be some supportive, also-outcast, wicca-believing teen girl friend at school this fall. you will recognize her by the earring in her nose and the tattoo. just my opinion: get the whole family into counseling.



lexie -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 9:22:48 AM)

lightshineon,

What is the attitude of the parents of the boys? It's very obvious here that that attitude of the entire church is not right on this issue.

I can understand that you are looking for direction as to whether or not to leave the church, and that you are very involved in the church and that makes it hard to leave. But things need to be resolved. If your family left the church, who is to say that these boys wouldn't just take it to the next person they can pick on?

I can't remember all of the details of your previous postings on this subject, but what has the pastor of the church said about this (not the youth pastor.) This should be taken to all of the leadership of the church, not just for your daughters sake, but for everyone in the church. There is major concern here that children are being allowed to behave in ungodly ways and that children are bringing the outside world into the church and it is being tolerated.

I agree with Row1 that all this is doing is showing your daughter that you can't trust everyone in church. Even if your daughter has enough support at home to remain in the faith, others who enter through those doors may not.

And like others said about the cutting, once is enough to go get help. I remember watching a tv show with a character who was a cutter and even though it was a tv show she made a good point - even if she goes years without doing it, she will always be a cutter and it will be a struggle. I'm glad that you have found counseling for your daughter.



GroupW -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 10:06:36 AM)

I was curious about how the boys' parents were getting involved as well - forgot to ask. Ah, the effects of approaching senility.

Very curious about whether or not you're getting any support there.



Hislittleone -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 1:43:56 PM)

quote:

We have prayed, asking the Lord if we should leave. It might seem like a big Duh??, but do not feel released.


I don't think God would have you to leave your daughter in a situation that is harmful. Sometimes people (me included) mistake what they perceive to be God's will for their own desires, fears etc. Make absolute certain that both of you aren't doing that in this case. Like I said, would God really want you to keep making your daughter go to a place that will only bring her more harm (and all in the name of Christianity)?

I agree that you both should approach all leadership (senior pastor, youth pastor, children's parents, deacons and elders etc.) about this situation. Perhaps having a meeting with everyone would be the best way to go. Then there's no chance for "he said, she said" miscommunication. Then if the problem isn't dealt with properly it may be time for you and your husband to talk about finding another church for the family. I know you've been there a long time and dh is an edler but that doesn't mean you should keep on staying if it's bringing harm and disunity to the family.

Another thought is that perhaps your husband should step down from his position in the church (and maybe you too), NOT because you've done something wrong, but in order to have more time/energy to focus on your family. Just saying this because your daughter is having serious problems and needs all the support she can get.



stampinlady -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 1:59:56 PM)

quote:

I was curious about how the boys' parents were getting involved as well -


I was wondering this too.



MrsTracy72 -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 3:36:37 PM)

Wow, this is alot. I am so sorry your DD is cutting? That is not a good sign. She needs an outlet for her anger. Has she been able to open up to you about all of this and tell you how it makes her feel? I know she needs to be able to stand up for herself, but she also needs to know that there are dignified ways to do that, meaning, she can stand up for herself without acting like they are acting toward her.

My son had a problem with some boys in the bathroom at one of his schools and while it was a Christian school, and the last place I thought things like this would happen, it did. To this day, he will only use a public bathroom if he can be in a stall and lock the door. Otherwise forget it. This situation happened 6 years ago and while I don't think he even thinks about it, he still won't go into a public bathroom unless he can lock himself in a stall.

Hopefully your DD can open up and talk with you about it too. Counseling is good and if she has only cut herself once, that is not so bad as long as she can keep from doing it again. It can get addicting.

We solved our situation by leaving the church and school. We ended up finding the most wonderful church and put our kids in public school. You might want to think about that because eventhough it is a youth group through church, kids can be so very mean. That can be a reflection of many things, but if it is being tolerated and the kids are being allowed to participate with no punishment, then I would think about leaving too.



creationtalk -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/15/2008 9:05:53 PM)

lightshineon,

I definitely understand how you feel. Those boys are probably lucky you are her mother not me, because I would have wanted to tear their heads off. I also understand what you mean about seeing your husband's side, but still being angry; logically you know that you daughter needs to stand up for herself, but mother bear still wants to shred the little creeps (even if they are normal 12 yo boys).

I understand the pain that your daughter feels. I was the kid who was made fun of and laughed at in school. I was the one people made up stories about. It didn't happen in church but that was because I didn't go to church. It happened in many other things I was involved in. My parent's never knew the extent of what I faced each day. I told them some, but not all. It took me many years to get over the pain of what happened. YES, your daughter needs to learn to stand up for herself...but some people are very sensitive and tenderhearted, they will not be able to defend themselves --they may fight to the death in defense of another but not for themselves. If this is your daughter, then you need to provide a shield for her until she learns how to shield herself.

I would run, not walk away from a church that allows that type of thing in the youth group. As I see it, the church and youth group are optional...you can change them both. Since that is the case, I would not make my child return to an optional function, group, or place where she is humiliated and teased in a mean way. There may be some situations we cannot take the child out of immediately no matter how much we wish, but this does not appear to be the case. If you dh is unwilling to leave the church because of his position and you want your daughter in church, I would ask dh if he would let you look for another church you and dd can attend until she feels better about herself and can return to the old church or the whole family decides to find a new church together. If another church is not an option, then consider "home church" for your daughter. I described what my mother did for me and my siblings in the Homeschooling folder in the thread entitled: Preachers & Bible Studies for our Bible H.School Time This might give you some ideas.



lightshineon -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/17/2008 3:17:44 PM)

Hi, thanks for all the responses. The parents were called by my husband, and one mother said she would say " Knock it off to her son", the childrens pastor a woman said " I cannot imagine (Her son) doing this. I am so sorry for any child that has ever been bullied, and church is not a place for this. I am so sorry that in schools children are bullied and damaged, and hurt and wounds are opened that do not heal, except through the love of Jesus Christ. I ws one of those children also, so it paiins me so much to see other adults, or kids, hurt their spirits wounded. I was a very agressive girl, when bullied. The first day, of school in the 7th grade, in a new school, a boy made a cruel comment to me, and I threw him over the desk. I was smaller always than my peers, but would fight to the death. It did not help my heart though, only Christ has done that. My husband and I, are unified, in parenting, we are homeschooling our child this year. We, had one disagreement, because we are frusturtated with our breathren, and their actions, and behaved in the flesh once.



csl7037 -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/18/2008 1:25:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Hi, thanks for all the responses. The parents were called by my husband, and one mother said she would say " Knock it off to her son", the childrens pastor a woman said " I cannot imagine (Her son) doing this.


So it's the children's pastor's son and a friend? Who is the adult in the room when this particular group meets and why do they not have a handle on what's going on? That person needs to be dealt with and, likely, doesn't need to be working with those kids or needs more help since they don't seem to be able to monitor or control the situation. And ultimately it's the children's pastor's job to dictate the type of environment that exists in the children's ministry and the kind of behavior that is and is not allowed. If someone doesn't get more of a handle on what goes on with these teens immediately, I'd be out of there. The utter lack of supervision and lack of response you're getting from her is unacceptable.



lightshineon -> RE: Hi, who was right husband or me? (8/19/2008 12:28:00 AM)

yes it is unacceptable.
quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Hi, thanks for all the responses. The parents were called by my husband, and one mother said she would say " Knock it off to her son", the childrens pastor a woman said " I cannot imagine (Her son) doing this.


So it's the children's pastor's son and a friend? Who is the adult in the room when this particular group meets and why do they not have a handle on what's going on? That person needs to be dealt with and, likely, doesn't need to be working with those kids or needs more help since they don't seem to be able to monitor or control the situation. And ultimately it's the children's pastor's job to dictate the type of environment that exists in the children's ministry and the kind of behavior that is and is not allowed. If someone doesn't get more of a handle on what goes on with these teens immediately, I'd be out of there. The utter lack of supervision and lack of response you're getting from her is unacceptable.



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