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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/18/2008 12:24:56 PM
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Rockwall
Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Texas
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quote:
todd_t
IMO, a leader who surrounds him or herself with yes-men and lackeys is no leader at all.
If we take your word at face value then you believe that Obama is not a leader because he tows the party line. There is not an issue on the left that obama was against while McCain have left his party when it came to immigration and "global warming".
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/18/2008 1:57:57 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2007
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
If we take your word at face value then you believe that Obama is not a leader because he tows the party line.
Technically, that makes him a lackey, not necessarily a non-leader. 
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/18/2008 10:10:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Support your assertion of Obama's "wickedness".
His support for the murder of the unborn and as well, his support for the homosexual agenda...
quote:
maybe you could start by defining what you mean by "wicked".
Proverbs...
John
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 9:16:36 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Support your assertion of Obama's "wickedness".
His support for the murder of the unborn and as well, his support for the homosexual agenda...
quote:
maybe you could start by defining what you mean by "wicked".
Proverbs...
John
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
No answer, then. Thanks for clarifying.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 9:19:41 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 1981
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Amazing, he's given an answer and Swede still falls back on that tired "no answer, thanks" line....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 9:28:22 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Support your assertion of Obama's "wickedness".
His support for the murder of the unborn and as well, his support for the homosexual agenda...
quote:
maybe you could start by defining what you mean by "wicked".
Proverbs...
John
Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.
No answer, then. Thanks for clarifying.
Your pardon, i did not see the earlier part of your answer. Still not used to the various nuances of the formating on this Board.
Okay, if you're going to make an issue on which American law is settled and accepted by the overwhelming majority of the nation your litmus test - it does seem to be the only issue of concern to soi-disant eveangelical Christians - then go ahead. You'll get Obama elected at worst, and at best, get the luke-warm McCain into office.
As to the 'homosexual agenda' - civil rights, CONSTITUTIONAL rights for Americans, including equal treatment under the law, is not subject to debate, nor is it your slightest concern nor that of anyone else who decides that someone else's private behavior somehow affects YOUR private behavior.
Enjoy the full glass you have, if you do - do not deny other's their full glass.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 9:31:41 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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By the way, others might claim that the 'wickedness' of McCain in cheating on, and then dumping, his faithful wife, or his cooperation with his North Vietnamese captors, or even his admission to the Naval Academy as an unqualified legacy - affirmative action - midshipman to be signs of an even greater moral failing.
You picks your issues and you makes your judgements - but you might want to expand the horizon just a little.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 9:53:25 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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After much consideration I have found a reason that some might want to vote for B. Hussein Obama.
He does believe in finishing what one starts.
I say that because he supprts the killing of a baby after birth if the abortion is botched and the baby is born alive.
Now folks that is sincere dedication to completing one's goals.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:04:40 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1271
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Swede: before I take time typing out a reply I need to know if you are a Christian or not. If the answer is "yes", I would also appreciate some insight into what you actually believe about who Jesus is and what the Bible is. I ask because your answer may help us continue this discussion without talking past one another.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:11:37 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Swede: before I take time typing out a reply I need to know if you are a Christian or not. If the answer is "yes", I would also appreciate some insight into what you actually believe about who Jesus is and what the Bible is. I ask because your answer may help us continue this discussion without talking past one another.
Actually, your question has no relevance to the discussion at all, and is frankly none of your business, bordering on a TOS violation.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:13:59 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
By the way, others might claim that the 'wickedness' of McCain in cheating on, and then dumping, his faithful wife, or his cooperation with his North Vietnamese captors, or even his admission to the Naval Academy as an unqualified legacy - affirmative action - midshipman to be signs of an even greater moral failing.
You picks your issues and you makes your judgements - but you might want to expand the horizon just a little.
I have to admit one of the slimiest ways to say something without saying it is to say, "Others might claim..." and then repeat a list of half-truths, gossip, and innuendo. If one is going to smear someone, at least have the backbone to own up to being the one actually making the charges - or don't repeat them at all.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:36:16 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
By the way, others might claim that the 'wickedness' of McCain in cheating on, and then dumping, his faithful wife, or his cooperation with his North Vietnamese captors, or even his admission to the Naval Academy as an unqualified legacy - affirmative action - midshipman to be signs of an even greater moral failing.
You picks your issues and you makes your judgements - but you might want to expand the horizon just a little.
I have to admit one of the slimiest ways to say something without saying it is to say, "Others might claim..." and then repeat a list of half-truths, gossip, and innuendo. If one is going to smear someone, at least have the backbone to own up to being the one actually making the charges - or don't repeat them at all.
Congratulations, Jhud, on evading the issue. True, the evasion was clumsy and obvious, but at least you did try to protect McCain from the vilification he deserves.
If you like, McCain is at least as wicked as Obama, McCain an admitted adulterer and oathbreaker, a betrayer of his sworn oath as a naval officer and the implied bond to his fellow POWs, and clearly an affimative-action 'legacy' admission to the USNA, as borne out by his low level of performance there and following in his naval career.
Better?
Care to answer the question of 'wickedness' now? How is McCain NOT wicked by biblical standards, being an adulterer, an oath-breaker, and a thief?
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:43:35 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Congratulations, Jhud, on evading the issue. True, the evasion was clumsy and obvious, but at least you did try to protect McCain from the vilification he deserves.
If you like, McCain is at least as wicked as Obama, McCain an admitted adulterer and oathbreaker, a betrayer of his sworn oath as a naval officer and the implied bond to his fellow POWs, and clearly an affimative-action 'legacy' admission to the USNA, as borne out by his low level of performance there and following in his naval career.
Better?
Care to answer the question of 'wickedness' now? How is McCain NOT wicked by biblical standards, being an adulterer, an oath-breaker, and a thief?
Last I checked, we are all wicked by Biblical sandards - you want to hang on to that stone in your hand?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:45:28 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Swede: before I take time typing out a reply I need to know if you are a Christian or not. If the answer is "yes", I would also appreciate some insight into what you actually believe about who Jesus is and what the Bible is. I ask because your answer may help us continue this discussion without talking past one another.
Actually, your question has no relevance to the discussion at all, and is frankly none of your business, bordering on a TOS violation.
actually, i see the relevance in agreement in faith...heck, my beliefs in politics are rooted in judeo-christianity...i think ManimalX is trying to find common terms...to deny him this route denies any chance at finding peace on the subject...
logically, to argue any thing WITHOUT any moral base is to lead to nihilism...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:47:09 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Congratulations, Jhud, on evading the issue. True, the evasion was clumsy and obvious, but at least you did try to protect McCain from the vilification he deserves.
If you like, McCain is at least as wicked as Obama, McCain an admitted adulterer and oathbreaker, a betrayer of his sworn oath as a naval officer and the implied bond to his fellow POWs, and clearly an affimative-action 'legacy' admission to the USNA, as borne out by his low level of performance there and following in his naval career.
Better?
Care to answer the question of 'wickedness' now? How is McCain NOT wicked by biblical standards, being an adulterer, an oath-breaker, and a thief?
Last I checked, we are all wicked by Biblical sandards - you want to hang on to that stone in your hand?
Gald to - and I'll accept your admission of surrender with the other.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:50:24 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Gald to - and I'll accept your admission of surrender with the other.
How does one 'surrender' something one never contradicted? McCain as as wicked as any man, no less so than Obama - whether he did the particular things you are sliming him with, is something neither you nor I can say for sure, they are merely the gossip and innuendo the left deals in since actual facts elude them.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:53:17 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Congratulations, Jhud, on evading the issue. True, the evasion was clumsy and obvious, but at least you did try to protect McCain from the vilification he deserves.
If you like, McCain is at least as wicked as Obama, McCain an admitted adulterer and oathbreaker, a betrayer of his sworn oath as a naval officer and the implied bond to his fellow POWs, and clearly an affimative-action 'legacy' admission to the USNA, as borne out by his low level of performance there and following in his naval career.
Better?
Care to answer the question of 'wickedness' now? How is McCain NOT wicked by biblical standards, being an adulterer, an oath-breaker, and a thief?
Last I checked, we are all wicked by Biblical sandards - you want to hang on to that stone in your hand?
Gald to - and I'll accept your admission of surrender with the other.
i think you are missing the point Swede,
there is a difference in character between Hitler and Ma Theresa...
but, i am not here to debate you, well, i can't until WE ALL know whether you are a christian or not (just so we are not talking past you)...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:57:33 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 1981
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Gald to - and I'll accept your admission of surrender with the other.
Wow, claiming victory without having to actually do anything to earn it.....priceless...
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 10:59:33 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Gald to - and I'll accept your admission of surrender with the other.
How does one 'surrender' something one never contradicted? McCain as as wicked as any man, no less so than Obama - whether he did the particular things you are sliming him with, is something neither you nor I can say for sure, they are merely the gossip and innuendo the left deals in since actual facts elude them.
Maybe you want to point that out to ManimalX, since he raised the inflammatory issue of Obama's 'wickedness' in the first place.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:02:19 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Maybe you want to point that out to ManimalX, since he raised the inflammatory issue of Obama's 'wickedness' in the first place.
I presume he is reading the same posts you are.
But your insistence on the tu quoque does Obama no good.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:02:44 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Congratulations, Jhud, on evading the issue. True, the evasion was clumsy and obvious, but at least you did try to protect McCain from the vilification he deserves.
If you like, McCain is at least as wicked as Obama, McCain an admitted adulterer and oathbreaker, a betrayer of his sworn oath as a naval officer and the implied bond to his fellow POWs, and clearly an affimative-action 'legacy' admission to the USNA, as borne out by his low level of performance there and following in his naval career.
Better?
Care to answer the question of 'wickedness' now? How is McCain NOT wicked by biblical standards, being an adulterer, an oath-breaker, and a thief?
Last I checked, we are all wicked by Biblical sandards - you want to hang on to that stone in your hand?
Gald to - and I'll accept your admission of surrender with the other.
i think you are missing the point Swede,
there is a difference in character between Hitler and Ma Theresa...
but, i am not here to debate you, well, i can't until WE ALL know whether you are a christian or not (just so we are not talking past you)...
Hyperbole much?
And why can't you debate without knowing whether I am a Christian or not? This is a POLITICAL debate, not a religious one - or is it that you want to know simply so you can try to divert the discussion into an analysis of what you consider MY shortcomings one way or the other? Or simply because niggling that point gives you an excuse for not discussing the issue?
WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT?
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:06:56 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Maybe you want to point that out to ManimalX, since he raised the inflammatory issue of Obama's 'wickedness' in the first place.
I presume he is reading the same posts you are.
But your insistence on the tu quoque does Obama no good.
I ain't interested in making Obama look good, or McCain bad, or the other way around.
I'm interested in debating the good and bad points of both men, one or the other of whom is going to be President in about five months. THIS thread - read the title - is about OBAMA, as compared to McCain - and if you don't want to talk about one or the other, this is the wrong thread for whatever it is that you ARE trying to talk about.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:12:01 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
ain't interested in making Obama look good, or McCain bad, or the other way around.
I'm interested in debating the good and bad points of both men, one or the other of whom is going to be President in about five months. THIS thread - read the title - is about OBAMA, as compared to McCain - and if you don't want to talk about one or the other, this is the wrong thread for whatever it is that you ARE trying to talk about.
Actually, the thead is about reasons to vote for Obama - presumably those are positive reasons; saying McCain is no less wicked isn't a particularly good reason to vote for Obama, since both men have already admitted to moral failures.
And the ones you list are definitively in the realm of rumor and innuendo. So how you think lurid gossip about McCain somehow fits your own thread about reasons to vote for Obama is beyong me.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:12:15 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1271
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Swede: before I take time typing out a reply I need to know if you are a Christian or not. If the answer is "yes", I would also appreciate some insight into what you actually believe about who Jesus is and what the Bible is. I ask because your answer may help us continue this discussion without talking past one another.
Actually, your question has no relevance to the discussion at all, and is frankly none of your business, bordering on a TOS violation.
huskarine nailed it.
My question is completely relevant to the discussion because if I type out a lengthy and biblically sound post, and you are either not a Christian or have a liberal regard for the Bible, none of my arguments will have been worth directing to you. If you are not a Christian or don't hold to the authority of the Bible, my definition of wickedness will make no sense to you. In other words, if the Bible is nothing more to you than an ancient collection of Jewish writings that has a few good morals in it, we are not going to get anywhere discussing matters of morality and ethics. However, if you ARE a Christian, and if you DO have proper regard for the Bible, then we can have a discussion on a level playing field.
Also, I don't know why you are so angry about declaring your faith or lack thereof. Here, I will go first: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and indeed is God. I believe that Jesus willingly laid down His sinlessly perfect life and then took it up again after three Jewish days in order that any who place their faith in Him may be restored to communion with God. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God revealed to mankind, and that it has information relevant to every aspect of human life, including politics and leadership. This means that I believe what the Bible says about discerning the fruits of human deeds, and that it is possible to properly assess whether or not a leader is wicked or righteous. Everything I do and every word I type flows out of these beliefs.
There, now you at least know where I am coming from.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:24:40 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
ain't interested in making Obama look good, or McCain bad, or the other way around.
I'm interested in debating the good and bad points of both men, one or the other of whom is going to be President in about five months. THIS thread - read the title - is about OBAMA, as compared to McCain - and if you don't want to talk about one or the other, this is the wrong thread for whatever it is that you ARE trying to talk about.
Actually, the thead is about reasons to vote for Obama - presumably those are positive reasons; saying McCain is no less wicked isn't a particularly good reason to vote for Obama, since both men have already admitted to moral failures.
And the ones you list are definitively in the realm of rumor and innuendo. So how you think lurid gossip about McCain somehow fits your own thread about reasons to vote for Obama is beyong me.
Gossip? MCCAIN HIMSELF admitted to his adultrous affairs, including with Cindy. MCCAIN HIMSELF admits to signing his 'war crimes' confession.
How is what MCCAIN HIMSELF acknowledges 'gossip'? Is this some new definition dreamed up by reality-spinning Republicans to allow them to refuse to acknowledge the facts?
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