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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 4:21:04 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
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I just wonder where this idea came from. I find it sad that people don't allow Christ to define them.
Hearing people speak this way is new to me.
I knew about guilt complexes but this thinking is a way of life. How could anyone ever see hope in the constant berating of themselves?
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 4:39:13 PM
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doinkdom
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Are you referring to those who instead of claiming something for themselves in the name of Christ...they instead look inward at their hearts and determine that they don't deserve more.
I know the darkness inside of me - the hidden sin, etc. Do I see myself as less before God because of it? No...I know I am a new creation. And that knowledge is what keeps me humble.
I deserved God's wrath. Jesus atoned for that and the Holy Spirit regenerated me. However, I need to be reminded of that regularly in my temptations to think too highly of myself or to not forgive, etc. Much was forgiven in me and I need that reminder so that I understand why I am to forgive much in return to my brothers/sisters.
I do think there are some who can go overboard. I think some people are reactionary and go too far to separate themselves from WOF doctrine.
Yes, I am sinful and must repent and die to my sin daily. But that doesn't stop me from knowing that I am the daughter of the most high king and being confident of my position in Christ.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 4:47:50 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
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quote:
I deserved God's wrath. Jesus atoned for that and the Holy Spirit regenerated me. However, I need to be reminded of that regularly in my temptations to think too highly of myself or to not forgive, etc. Much was forgiven in me and I need that reminder so that I understand why I am to forgive much in return to my brothers/sisters.
No argument here.
quote:
I do think there are some who can go overboard.
I do hear it being over board.
As with everything, this too needs balance or it's unhealthy.
quote:
Yes, I am sinful and must repent and die to my sin daily. But that doesn't stop me from knowing that I am the daughter of the most high king and being confident of my position in Christ.
This would be the healthy balance.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 4:58:01 PM
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ladyichigo
Posts: 559
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As a pessimist, it's difficult NOT to berate myself on a daily basis because that's what I'm comfortable with. I think it's the sin-nature, the flesh that constantly wants to revert back to thinking that way and the enemy uses that has a foothold, sending us into a downward spiral of despair and hopelessness, even though we belong to God through Christ. We start looking to ourselves, and not looking to Christ. Frankly, from my perspective I think it's self-centered and if I think about it long enough, deep down inside I really feel that I did that so people will tell me that I'm not worthless. But then even having people tell me that, wasn't enough because I didn't believe in what they said because of my cynical perspective that these people are just "trying to be nice" and don't really mean it. What a hurtful, and un-Christlike attitude that is.
I also think that it comes from culture too. I'm not sure about other Asian cultures, but the Japanese talk negatively about themselves and their children to "APPEAR" humble. Example: "Oh my your children are such good kids! You're doing such a good job raising them." "Oh, no. They are such a handful. They have given me so much gray hairs, I think I'll be all gray before I hit 40!" 
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Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 5:08:14 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
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Hmmmm, that was an interesting perspective I had not considered, Mari.
How do we respond to this view of ourselves?
I have a hard time distinguishing whether it's a false humility or is it really low self esteem?
It's just hard for me to understand how a person can read The Word and walk away feeling unloved and unworthy and then go tell other people that they are!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 5:39:02 PM
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ladyichigo
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Hmmm....you know what? For me, I think it was BOTH. Because I have low self-esteem, I want people's praise, I want to be complimented...but at the same time I cannot accept them because I don't want people to think that I'm proud, and I am not proud because I am worthless person. Very circular. It's really a heart issue....it's a pride issue. I used to get so wrapped up in how worthless I am, that I'm all I think about.
The thing was, my desire was/is to have integrity in Christ.
Seriously, with that kind of attitude though, where's the integrity? I would definitely not be a good witness with that kind of heart. What opened up my eyes was just my husband asking me that. How can I be representing Christ and being a light of the world if I have the "I'm so worthless and wretched" attitude? How can I raise my children to be Christ-like if I am in this negative line of thinking? It's so unhealthy.
I still struggle with self-esteem issues, but I do not consider myself worthless or wretched any longer.
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Mari
I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 6:28:58 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
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I've just gotta tell ya,from the sounds of your posts, you have come a long way 
BTW, it takes a tremendous amount of integrity to face a problem and begin repairing it 
I do think there is a difference in how people portray their worthlessness, in that false humility seems to rail on, the beating of the breast kind of think, where the low self esteem part is sincere because that's how people truly feel.
No matter the difference, it's the Healer that should be focused on, not the "sickness".
Just look at the glory your (Mari) testimony has given Him! Thank you for sharing your insight and personal story.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 6:45:33 PM
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musicboss11
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This reminds me of a Todd Agnew song: "It's funny how all I can be is someone completly ugly, and yet when you look at me you don't see a wretch you see a reflection of something beautiful".
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 6:54:51 PM
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makarizo
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I thought about this thread on the way home from work today:
everyone is getting off work, and there is a lot of traffic, and today a person who must have been in a great big hurry and pulled out in front of me, I had to hit the brakes, slow way down, and then this person put his left turn signal on, he was going to McDonalds.
I just sat there and waited until finally there was an opening for him to turn in.
and I thought about this thread
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 6:59:14 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
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quote:
I thought about this thread on the way home from work today:
everyone is getting off work, and there is a lot of traffic, and today a person who must have been in a great big hurry and pulled out in front of me, I had to hit the brakes, slow way down, and then this person put his left turn signal on, he was going to McDonalds.
I just sat there and waited until finally there was an opening for him to turn in.
and I thought about this thread
I mean no offense in asking this, is there more to the story? Or were you just telling us that your still "considering " the thread?
I'm genuinely asking because I think you might be saying something, but I'm just not getting it. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 7:12:52 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 739
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladyichigo
As a pessimist, it's difficult NOT to berate myself on a daily basis because that's what I'm comfortable with.
That's what the enemy wants. He wants us to continue to "sweat" over our sin. But... God wipes it out! We confess and repent (notice: the two step proccess!) And God tells us He has forgotten it.
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"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 8:15:02 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
Was it the reaction you had to his guy? If so... Hey... that doesn't make us wretched... it just makes us human. It's what we do with it (after) that counts.
my reaction was more or less just an observation of unsafe driving, and thoughtlessness. it evoked no reaction in me.
we are human, and because of that, we all have a flesh nature........'walk after the Spirit and you will not carry out the deeds of the flesh"
1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God
is that verse talking about human nature??
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 9:38:05 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Personally, I know for a fact that the Holy Spirit lives within me, so I am very careful for how degrading I am to my soul and my body, because it is not mine, but the Lord's! There is a difference between realizing our sinfulness and humbling ourselves to the point where we realize we need HIM, and degrading ourselves. I have yet to understand the voluntary humility/degradation some feel they are required by God to show. If you are a born-again Christian, YOU ARE WORTH SOMETHING! Thank God for it!!!!! God wants YOU, and the last thing an un-believer needs to hear is that they are worth SQUAT and that Jesus doesn't love them. John 3:16
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/14/2008 10:43:20 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
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quote:
I know this is near and dear to you, so I tread lightly here.
Thanks, URForgiven. But no need to tread lightly with me. As I've told DD, I will also tell you, I love you two so I listen to what you say with love and I take it as love from you---that means I believe the best of you and want to hear your thoughts because I know they are given FOR my good. So bless you.
I John 1:5-10 says "And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
If we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we are only being shown who we are in Christ, what sins would His blood be cleansing us from? That would be past sin, our perfect, righteous, sanctified self would not need cleansing.
And it continues and speaks of confessing our sins and His faithfulness to forgive and cleanse us. This seems to be a part of the fellowship shared while walking in the light---not a work of the enemy---but Christ's cleansing work on our behalf.
That's just one verse but scripture is filled with commands about how we are to walk. Would we need instruction if we are perfect, righteous, sanctified and justified? I know that positionally we are all of those things. But what am I being conformed to if I'm already like Jesus? Why does my mind need to be transformed if I'm already like Jesus?
Anyway, just wondering how you understand the rest of scripture when you come at it from that perspective. Help me understand.
BTW, I know that I am eternally loved and I live loved. That is how Christ wants me to live. I have been set free yet remnants of burial cloth still clings to me and must be torn away.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 7:23:30 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
If we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we are only being shown who we are in Christ, what sins would His blood be cleansing us from? That would be past sin, our perfect, righteous, sanctified self would not need cleansing.
And it continues and speaks of confessing our sins and His faithfulness to forgive and cleanse us. This seems to be a part of the fellowship shared while walking in the light---not a work of the enemy---but Christ's cleansing work on our behalf.
As we have continued on in this discussion, I tried to show a difference bewtween how we see ourselves and how He sees us.
We aren't talking about living unrepentant life. We aren't sayin that we don't have to acknowlede our defects.
We are talking about those who, having been born again, still living as though the Father finds them unworthy.
The low self esteem, the false humility of the one who screams out so others can hear how "unworthy they are, so that the focus in on them, rather than on His redemptive powers.
^
General summary for clarification for you LL. Hope that Helps!
I'm adding this part:
The enemy uses all kinds of devices to snare us. Pride being one and low self esteem being another.
If the enemy can get us to doubt, he's achieved us, even for a few moments, to get us to, turn our focus off Jesus and onto him.
If we are walking in the Light, we aren't walking in the darkness. We either walk in one or walk in the other.
For that matter, we can walk away from the Light and into the darkness.
It's not about Christ making us perfect on this earth. It's accepting who and what we are and our gratitude that He saves us from ourselves.
We can't change us, He can and does.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 7:55:28 AM
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kingdust
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
I see the flesh part of me entering into a rage. it is only natural.
if that is anything less than wretched (to me) I might think it would be okay to do that sometimes.
I am not in the habit of experiencing road rage, but am aware of what I would become apart from Christ.
Not many people are able to see how ugly and scary it is when their own self is in rage.
No chance if it is assumed to be indignation, which usually is the cause for most anger cases- if you don't think you are offended or your right is violated, you would not get angry.
However, it is black and white ugly act even if clothed in righteous anger.
The natural thing is beautiful, just because it is natural!
No natural person can see ugliness in it.
It is outright nonsense to say the natural beauty can be evil or ugly.
However again, just like Lucifer has the beautiful look, not ugly like many imagine, the natural beauty of our sinful character can be ugly just the same.
Our self, having both the good and evil trait and sitting on the fence between beauty and ugliness, can go either way at any given moment, depending on the spirit at the moment.
If we were separated from the sinful natural self at the moment we got wet in the water tank, we would only be beautiful there after!
We seem like having the double face problem...only to me.
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I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 9:27:09 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I know that positionally we are all of those things.
If you understand that we are those things positionally...then you understand. Because who we are positionally is who we are, because who we are positionally is who God says we are. And who God says we are is who we need to believe we are. (clumsily said lol, but truth nonetheless)
Philippians 3:13
"Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead"
We press onward towards all that God says we already have. Who we are positionally is who we are in reality, and that is why we need to learn to see ourselves as God sees us. Can our reaction be any less than Pauls?
"Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
We shall have to save the rest for another time, as we are far apart on that. And as DD has reminded us we need to stay on the OP. I will just say one thing about Johns letters that is important. The main emphasis of what he writes is to refute gnosticism, I am sure you already know that. If we take what he writes out of that context, we will see many things there that are not intended, things that actually disagree with other scripture, which we know cannot be true. Bless you.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 8/15/2008 9:46:50 AM >
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 3:03:35 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Pride would be self-esteem
low self esteem =self deprecation
I see that as being very different.
quote:
So my emphasis on seeing ourselves rightly and my seeing MYSELF and continually desiring for the Holy Spirit to reveal sin and cleanse me is borne out of the LACK I see in the church and professing believers and pastors and teachers in particular.
LL, your focus on you, doesn't change them. Their lack of, it is their own road. No matter how many times you may discuss it. It still will fall on them.
What may be your truth doesn't mean it is the same truth for everybody.
I totally hear what you are saying, but I can't help but think. the meaning you have attached to it goes much deeper.
A person who has low self esteem, has tragedy in their past. It's still affecting them because they have given it to Jesus yet. They may think they have, but if it keeps visiting, it's because they keep taking it back.
There is not pride in this, for some it has become a way of life. To live differently feels very strange and uncomfortable.
I guess I'm hearing from you that we are to not esteem ourselves at all.
This concerns me because of what Jesus did for me. I can't claim that it was by my effort, yet if I refuse to acknowledge the healing He did, I am denying Him the glory.
I'm walking, talking proof of His loving kindness. Even though I still sin, the state that He brought me from, overrides what I was.
Does that make more sense?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 4:00:23 PM
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