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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 1:19:51 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please take the sin/sinless fight discussion to one of the sin/sinless threads, as this thread is about Calvinism.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 1:26:03 PM
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Qtman
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I was waiting on that^^^^one. Now back on topic.
Can I be a Calminian or maybe a Armalvist. I agree with and disagree with parts of each. What do you call someone that is in the middle on this debate? BTW That is an honest question.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 1:54:56 PM
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drmark
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The logical extreme of Calvinism is lawlessness. The logical extreme of Arminianism is legalism. How does asking about the presence of sinning in a Christian's life relate to these two doctrinal systems, TC?
quote:
What do you call someone that is in the middle on this debate? Doctrinally mixed up!
Historically as I understand the Council of Dordt and its fiat theology, one must uphold all 5 points to be a true Calvinist.
< Message edited by drmark -- 11/18/2009 2:03:17 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 2:01:50 PM
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Qtman
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I understand that. My question is why must one be either a Calvinist or an Arminian. Where is it written that is the only two choices. Like I said I do not agree with the five points of Calvanism in their entirety but I do not disagree with them completely either. The same for the 5 main points of Armininaism. So I do not claim to be either one and in fact neither group will claim me. So where does that leave me? THere has to be another choice.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 2:05:54 PM
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drmark
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Each system is logically and tightly constructed, so my first answer above is still correct. 
Actually, U, L, and I must always go together, but T and P may be subject to modification. Would you care to share your differences, Qtman?
< Message edited by drmark -- 11/18/2009 2:13:15 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 2:21:33 PM
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Qtman
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I will give one example. This is what I found by doing a search using google. The firat paragraph is the Calvanistic view of Total Depravity. The second paragraph is the counter of the Arminians.
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.
This is more like something I believe. As you can see it is mainly a cut an dpaste out of both doctrines.
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe. But he has to yield to the Holy Spirit and is regenerated through Faith.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 2:41:33 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe. But he has to yield to the Holy Spirit and is regenerated through Faith. How can one's will not be free thus unable to choose yet God does not interfere with man's freedom? Like I said - doctrinally mixed up. (I pray that did not come across at "eaten alive"!)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 2:50:12 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe. But he has to yield to the Holy Spirit and is regenerated through Faith.
How can one's will not be free thus unable to choose yet God does not interfere with man's freedom? Like I said - doctrinally mixed up. (I pray that did not come across at "eaten alive"!)
It didn't and I guess I did not explain it well enough. Let me try again. And I am sure this will come across more one way than the other but so be it. You have to read the entire paragraph together. It is inseparable. Because of the fall, our will is a slave to sin and we will not in and of our own will alone choose God. However, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit(if and only if we follow Him) we can choose God. However, we can also choose not to chose God. You see my idea of free will is that it is not entirely and consistently free. THat is it is not without influence of the Holy Spirit. Although I firmly believe God does not force Himself on us and make one choose Him I believe the Holy Spirit is at work assisting us becuase we cannot assit ourselves.
Does that make more sense. I don't think I am mixed up just different.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 3:20:03 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Although I firmly believe God does not force Himself on us and make one choose Him I believe the Holy Spirit is at work assisting us becuase we cannot assit ourselves. This sounds quite Arminian to me, Qtman!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 9:25:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I was waiting on that^^^^one. Now back on topic.
Can I be a Calminian or maybe a Armalvist. I agree with and disagree with parts of each. What do you call someone that is in the middle on this debate? BTW That is an honest question.
Generally those who say they are in the middle are waiting to see who wins so they can jump on the bandwagon...
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 9:36:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
It didn't and I guess I did not explain it well enough. Let me try again. And I am sure this will come across more one way than the other but so be it. You have to read the entire paragraph together. It is inseparable. Because of the fall, our will is a slave to sin and we will not in and of our own will alone choose God. However, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit(if and only if we follow Him) we can choose God. However, we can also choose not to chose God.
First you have man unable, and then able...
quote:
You see my idea of free will is that it is not entirely and consistently free. THat is it is not without influence of the Holy Spirit. Although I firmly believe God does not force Himself on us and make one choose Him I believe the Holy Spirit is at work assisting us becuase we cannot assit ourselves.
You seem to have God forcing His will upon man, while attempting to maintain He doesn't... Either the "influence" (power) of the Holy Spirit is the power of God, or it's subject to the will of each man... The bible says the word of God accomplishes what He pleases and doesn't return void... No mention of 'if man allows it, or the "influncs" of the Spirit over comes the will of man...
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 9:40:19 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Generally those who say they are in the middle are waiting to see who wins so they can jump on the bandwagon... Guess what - no need for waiting to see who wins. I've read the end of the Book and 22:17 states that whoever wishes to come may take the free gift of the water of life. No unconditional election or limited atonement or irresistible grace involved at all!
< Message edited by drmark -- 11/18/2009 9:47:38 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 10:39:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Guess what - no need for waiting to see who wins. I've read the end of the Book and 22:17 states that whoever wishes to come may take the free gift of the water of life. No unconditional election or limited atonement or irresistible grace involved at all!
The "book" also says that man in his state prior to salvaiton cannot understand things of the Spirit... Again.. Cannot...Unable...It also says all those given to the Son will come...
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 12:46:41 AM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
Guess what - no need for waiting to see who wins. I've read the end of the Book and 22:17 states that whoever wishes to come may take the free gift of the water of life.
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. - Revelation 22:17
Amen! What a wonderful verse and encouragement.
Where did the will to come, come from? Where did the thirst come from? Natural you? No? Oops.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 8:26:28 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Where did the will to come, come from? Where did the thirst come from? Natural you? No? Oops. Does God come for us? Does He believe in our place? Does He take on our thirst? No? Oops.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 10:03:32 AM
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Reba
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Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 11:07:38 AM
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drmark
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Wonderful verses of comfort and assurance, Reba! But not a single one states that God believes for us, comes in our place, or performs any action or thought on our behalf. Indeed, from Genesis 2 to Revelation 22 the Bible is packed full with the fact that each and every one of us has a life to live and choices to make for ourselves. If you have a single Scripture which indicates that God has faith in Himself which serves as our faith in Him, please share it!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 11:23:14 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Wonderful verses of comfort and assurance, Reba! But not a single one states that God believes for us, comes in our place, or performs any action or thought on our behalf. Indeed, from Genesis 2 to Revelation 22 the Bible is packed full with the fact that each and every one of us has a life to live and choices to make for ourselves. If you have a single Scripture which indicates that God has faith in Himself which serves as our faith in Him, please share it!
That's a strawman because that is no one has ever said that God will believe for us.
God causes us to believe, which is different and many verses have been given to evidence that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 11:34:02 AM
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Eutychus
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DrMark, I believed the failure to communicate is a difference in views on man's condition prior to salvation. If you believe that scriptures has man with a functioning spiritual nature that can desire and understand the things of God, then you are only going to see what appears to be some men choosing to come to the Father on his inherent goodness and that grace is only the offer.
If, OTH, you are of the belief that scripture has man spiritually dead until regenerated, then your understanding would be that grace not only includes the offer but also the means because fallen man is, essentially, a spiritual corpse that cannot see, hear, feel, or perceive the Gospel - it's all God, the great initiator, who provides the means of salvation, does the calling, and opens spiritual eyes and ears to receive grace.
As long as there are these two different starting points, this thread will never end and participants will continue to talk past one another and, possibly, assume the other side is intentionally ignoring scriptural truth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 11:36:37 AM
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drmark
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quote:
God causes us to believe, which is different and many verses have been given to evidence that. I'm sure you think they have, but that's your (faulty) interpretation of them. The correct understanding of those verses is that God enables us to believe by His grace. If God "caused" our belief then He would be believing for us, or He's not God...
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 11:42:41 AM
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drmark
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quote:
If, OTH, you are of the belief that scripture has man spiritually dead until regenerated, then your understanding would be that grace not only includes the offer but also the means because fallen man is, essentially, a spiritual corpse that cannot see, hear, feel, or perceive the Gospel - it's all God, the great initiator, who provides the means of salvation, does the calling, and opens spiritual eyes and ears to receive grace. What position in the C/A spectrum would you classify this, Eutychus? Is the person whose eyes and ears have been opened to receive grace actually saved at that point? If not, what else must happen for salvation to be accomplished?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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