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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 12:26:39 PM
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rwe2156
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If determinism is true, you can't claim to have decided anything.
You might think your choice is yours, but if you believe God
predetermined your choice, then you are deluded into believing
every single choice you make has been approved by God,
even your sin!
Another reality is you have no way of knowing your are one of
the elect until you get to heaven.
Please explain to me why these conclusions are wrong.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 12:48:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Does anyone know why Adam was ashamed of his sin?
I have yet to get a reformed answer.
rw, why do you expect one? You know their claim: all unregenerate hate God and don't want to obey and have zero moral sensibilities. How can they answer Adam's obvious guilt in light of their claims. 
As well, how can they answer why Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect, which the calinists claim the group Jesus didn't die for?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:11:09 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
rw, why do you expect one? You know their claim: all unregenerate hate God and don't want to obey and have zero moral sensibilities. True!
IF all unregenerate hate God and don't want to obey:
Then explain the unregenerate certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band(Act 10:3), A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.(Act 10:2)
Did this man hate God while he was not saved?
How-bout Saul/Paul Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.(Php 3:6-7); Learned at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God(Act 22:3)
Saul/Paul persecuted the Christian way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest did bear him witness, and all the council of the elders: from whom also he had received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them who were there bound unto Jerusalem, to be punished(Act 22:5-6). Beyond measure Saul/Paul persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And advanced in the Jews' religion above many of his equals in his own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of his fathers(Gal 1:14)
Did he do all this for the hatred for God?
Howbout all those who were baptised by John before Jesus revealed HimSelf?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:11:22 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Let’s look at what the Lord Jesus said.
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24 NASB95)
So, no, Jesus was not promising salvation at all. Quite the opposite, He was telling them that they would die in there sins and then explains why they will. This is not an offer of salvation, but a proclamation.
Hey SH !!!
Don't the freewillers realize they depict God
as more of a sadist than the alleged calvies ?
They are no the least bit interested in this---
Rather the "OFFER" must be made to all.
And its not sadistic to tell somebody they will die
and go to hell, how they can escape it, all the
while knowing they have no ability to believe?
Right!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:25:01 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
not to insult your intelligence,
oh, darling , to your heart content. I can use some humbling,for after living for a while now in the Blessed US of A where the bar for intelligence is set at one of the lowest levels in the world- founding fathers are probably rolling in their graves- I get perpetually prideful.
No, i am not sarcastic- i am grieving.
quote:
In fact, I am a staunch Calvinist, but if you would like me to switch sides for a moment and argue the strengths of the FW position to demonstrate a grasp of your real position, say the word and I will be happy to oblige.
....
can a choice really be totally free? I can't think of one that could be :)
Great. Considering the magnitude of the matter, maybe we can start with you kidnly offering your position , as FG already commented on this I believe, on how totally influenced, or essentially, forced choice coexist with responsibility. I dont see how someone can be held resposible for doing something he had no choice in the matter.
How do you define totally free choice also,please?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:26:50 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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Manna - your "supposed calvies" comment got me to thinking.....
After studying reformed theology for the last 2 years I have
basically concluded much of what we hear on this thread is
on the fringe of reformed theology and does not reflect
true Calvinism or reformed thought.
SovIsHe commented a noted reformed theologian is "on something"
because his theology contradicts what SIH says?
Give me a break!
I can give you NUMEROUS quotes from some of your most noted
reformed pillars such as John Piper, Sproul, Stanley, and even
Spurgeon himself that any free will person will wholeheartedly embrace.
You all CONTINUALLY ignore my questions which I do not think
are frivolous and I assure you are not loaded.
I can only take this deafening silence to mean you simply
have no answers and there is no reality to your theology.
So, for about the 5th time, why was Adam ashamed?
Was he depraved and god-hating or not?
Had he lost all will to good before God or not?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:30:56 PM
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DanieleP
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Unregenerate human can not choose God! That is the limit of our free will.
Word of caution, don't forget our finiteness. You will never comprehend the full extent of many doctrinal principles. After all, God is beyond describing and our efforts to define in black and white things like calvinism and its opposing theories is truly beyond anyone's capabilities.
I was raise Southern Baptist in Brazil and I can tell you understanding and embracing calvinism healed many wounds in my previous Southern Baptist legalistic soul. It truly put the AMAZING back into Grace.
_____________________________
Life is short, pray hard!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:36:14 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanieleP
Unregenerate human can not choose God! Then explain Cornelius & Saul/Paul & even Nicodemus along with all the rest referining to my Post #: 1529
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:42:38 PM
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DanieleP
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Diolectic, I am not sure what your point is.
The process of "wooing" by the Holy Spirit is veiled. How does God actually, calendar wise, touch a human soul is not something we are privy to.
It is obvious to me that anyone that displays a move towards God has been touched by the Almighty.
Adam was created in the perfect image of God and in my view as soon as he disobeyed God he was aware of his guilt as God had told him (knowledge of good and evil).
Do you really think you can dissect the process of God's selection of the ones He has chosen? NO, no one can. Which is precisely why we are to evangelize ALL PEOPLES. Only God sees the heart of man.
_____________________________
Life is short, pray hard!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:53:35 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
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DanieleP .
First you make this statement :Unregenerate human can not choose God!
Then , you follow it up with this statement :After all, God is beyond describing and our efforts to define in black and white things like calvinism and its opposing theories is truly beyond anyone's capabilities.
Your first statement is pure presupposition , not supported by any Scripture .
And your second statement is proven true repeatedly on this thread ; in light of the fact that the Calvinists CAN NOT answer many questions asked of them from their theology .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:56:21 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Don't the freewillers realize they depict God
as more of a sadist than the alleged calvies ?
They are no the least bit interested in this---
Rather the "OFFER" must be made to all.
And its not sadistic to tell somebody they will die
and go to hell, how they can escape it, all the
while knowing they have no ability to believe?
Right!
What concept is God violating ?
In what principle is He inconsistent ?
What law is He breaking ?
None...none...none.......right ?
You have God in a box...He must do "X".
You demand God must act as you see fit.
God could vaporize me instantaneously
while I am sitting here typing and not
do anything that is the least bit UNgodlike.
Why must you object to God being God ?
Other than you really don't like Him ?
Will you be successful in changing Him ?
What will you change Him into ?
What will the new improved God be like ?
In whose image will you create Him ?
Who will you make Him to resemble ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:57:24 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
kelman,
Can you, in light of calvinistic theology which claims that Christ didn't die for the non-elect, explain WHY Jesus promised salvation for the non-elect in John 8:24?
kelman is well able to answer this simple question, but I wanted to give my view.
He's been asked frequently, and hasn't answered yet. I don't think he has one.
quote:
Your question supposes that Jesus is promising salvation to those to whom He is speaking, which is not the case at all.
OK, let's see what you've got.
quote:
Let’s look at what the Lord Jesus said.
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24 NASB95)
First He made an explicit statement: “you will die in your sins.” Then He explains why they will die in their sins (the word “for” shows that Jesus is going to explain what he has just stated) “for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
So, no, Jesus was not promising salvation at all. Quite the opposite, He was telling them that they would die in there sins and then explains why they will. This is not an offer of salvation, but a proclamation.
I have included your entire answer here for continuity. Your claim is refuted by your missing the key word in Jesus' statement, which is "unless". You see, what He said is the equivalent to an "if...then" statement. iow, IF this...THEN that.
This kind of construction has a protasis, or antecedent, which is a "condition", and an apodasis, or the consequence of the condition. This forms a "cause-effect relationship".
What is the protasis? "unless you believe in Me"
What is the apodasis? "you WILL die in your sins"
Another way to read this statement is this way:
IF you believe in Me, you WILL NOT die in your sins.
Or, it could be stated in the negative: IF you do NOT believe in Me, you WILL die in your sins.
What is the condition? There is one of 2, 1 being implied: to "believe in Me" or "NOT believe in Me".
What is the consequence? IF the condition is "believing in Me", the consequence is "you will NOT die in your sins".
IF the condition is "NOT believing in Me", the consequence is "you WILL die in your sins".
So, by your failure to deal with the "unless" in the statement, you simply miss the fact that Jesus was not only stating truth, as KJ has noted, He was also promising the non-elect a condition and consequence relationship.
He was promising the non-elect that IF they believed in Him, they will NOT die in their sins.
Or, He was promising the non-elect that IF they did NOT believe in Him, they WILL die in their sins.
So, your answer fails to deal with the reality of the sentence. Your answer was that Jesus makes the explicit statement that they will die in their sins, and explain why. Yet you completely miss the "unless" significance.
The presence of the "unless" indicates the "if...then" conditional sentence. In the Greek, the word is "ean", which is translated "if".
So, you miss the potential that Jesus noted. The use of "if" indicates that they had a choice. IF they DID believe, they would NOT die in their sins.
but, otoh, IF they did NOT believe, they WILL die in their sins.
Bottom line: Jesus promised them the consequence of either condition. Whether they believed or not, He promised them the consequence of either condition.
Calvinism cannot explain WHY Jesus promised the non-elect salvation through faith.
Calvinism's only response is to deny the promise found in Jesus' very clear statement. But their denial doesn't change or eliminate the fact that Jesus DID promise salvation to the non-elect, based on believing in Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 1:59:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Hey SH !!!
Don't the freewillers realize they depict God
as more of a sadist than the alleged calvies ?
They are no the least bit interested in this---
Rather the "OFFER" must be made to all.
Who has made us to differ from one another ?
Where is the precedent for equivalency ?
Other than ALL being born into sin ?
Manna, God created mankind to seek Him. How different is that between us? None. You just fail to recognize what He created mankind for. Or deny it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 2:06:15 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
So, for about the 5th time, why was Adam ashamed?
Where does The Bible say Adam was ashamed ?
Genesis 2:25 (King James Version)
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
This time I REALLY didn't understand !
Manna, had you been following rw's posts, you would have known that he was referring to Adam's hiding himself from the Lord when the Lord was walking in the garden AFTER he sinned. When the Lord asked him why was he hiding, he said that he was naked and hid. Gen 3:10. Your use of Gen 2:25 was WAY out of context, Manna. Please follow the discussions BEFORE you respond to one. Thanks.
rw was correctly noting that Adam hid himself BECAUSE he was ashamed of his "new" condition. Can you explain his guilt, in light of being unregenerate?
btw, he was still quite "God conscious", even though unregenerate. Can you explain that as well, in light of your theology?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 2:10:16 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/12/2005
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See you folks on Monday , I stay away from the thread on the weekends .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 2:30:42 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanieleP
Diolectic, I am not sure what your point is. All these were unregenerated and sought after God.
quote:
The process of "wooing" by the Holy Spirit is veiled. How does God actually, calendar wise, touch a human soul is not something we are privy to.
It is obvious to me that anyone that displays a move towards God has been touched by the Almighty. It is evident that Not all non-saved people hate God & those who have an affinity for the truth are "wooed" by the truth.
Some are "wooed" by circumstances, for example:
Some one who actually hated God may be likened to...
A man which was awakened by the cry of fire!!!; he looks up and found his dwelling wrapped in flames around him. He leaps from his bed and find the floor under his feet just ready to give way. The roof over his head is beginning to give way, and ready to fall in upon him with a crash.
His little ones awake, and are shrieking and clinging to his night-clothes. He see no way of escape. At this moment of unutterable anguish and despair, some ONE comes dashing through the flames with his hair and clothes on fire, seizes him with one hand & his kids, the fireman gathers them with his other long and strong arm around your little ones, and again rushes through the flames at the hazard of his life.
This man absolutely swoon with terror. In a few moments, he opens his eyes in the street and find himself supported in the arms of his hated deliverer.
The hated fireman is rubbing his temples with camphor, and fanning him, to restore his fainting life. He look up and behold in the scorched and smoky features of him who rescued him, the man whom he had supremely hated. This hated fireman smiles in his face, and says "fear not, your children are all alive; they are all standing around you."
Now tell me, if you were that man who was recued; would you, could you look coldly at him, and say, O I wish I could repent of my hatred of you, I have hated you so much. I wish I could be sorry for my sin against you. Could you say this? No.
You would instantly roll over upon your face, and wash his feet with your tears, and wipe them with the hairs of your head.
This scene would change your heart and every heart in a moment, and ever after the name of that man would be music in your ears. If you heard him slandered, or saw him abused, it would enkindle your grief and indignation.
Have you ever saw "The last Sin Eater".
quote:
Do you really think you can dissect the process of God's selection of the ones He has chosen? NO, no one can. Sure I can and most of my friends can too.
Y'all just deny my answer's validaty.
quote:
Which is precisely why we are to evangelize ALL PEOPLES. Only God sees the heart of man. I can hear it now, you preaching thus:
"Jesus might have died for your sins."
"REPENT if you can!"
"Attempt to put your faith in/on Jesus, that is if you actualy have faith."
"Maybe God so loved you..."
"Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps."
"Salvation has been provided for you, maybe."
"Possibly God commendeth His love toward you."
"Hopefully He’s the propitiation for your sins."
"There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute."
"I bring you good news, maybe."
"It’s possible that Christ died for you. If you get saved then we know that He did die for you, but if you continue to reject Him then He did not die for you."
"Christ died for you only if you believe that Christ died for you (thus proving you are elect), but if you do not believe this and if you continue in your unbelief until the day you die, then Christ did not die for you."
Fact is HE DIED:
1. For all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matt. 20:28).
8. For all of Israel (John 11:50–51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 9/5/2008 3:21:07 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 3:12:09 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Genesis 2:25 (King James Version)
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
This time I REALLY didn't understand !
Alright, alright, I shouldn't have used the word ashamed.
Were they aware they had sinned against God?
If so, then you must admit man is a moral being.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 3:22:06 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
Please retract your "unwelcome spiritual counsel" or I will report it and have it removed...
Thanks in advance...
Here's the original post, sir:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
: SovIsHe
He's on something....
As in he if full of it? I hope this is a typo.
More like smoking crack...
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 4:06:48 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
So, for about the 5th time, why was Adam ashamed?
Where does The Bible say Adam was ashamed ?
Genesis 2:25 (King James Version)
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
This time I REALLY didn't understand !
Manna, had you been following rw's posts, you would have known that he was referring to Adam's hiding himself from the Lord when the Lord was walking in the garden AFTER he sinned. When the Lord asked him why was he hiding, he said that he was naked and hid. Gen 3:10. Your use of Gen 2:25 was WAY out of context, Manna. Please follow the discussions BEFORE you respond to one. Thanks.
rw was correctly noting that Adam hid himself BECAUSE he was ashamed of his "new" condition. Can you explain his guilt, in light of being unregenerate?
btw, he was still quite "God conscious", even though unregenerate. Can you explain that as well, in light of your theology?
The bible says that the reason they hid themselves is because they were afraid not because they were ashamed.
(Genesis 3:10) And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 4:21:56 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Unregenerate human can not choose God! That is the limit of our free will.
Word of caution, don't forget our finiteness. You will never comprehend the full extent of many doctrinal principles. After all, God is beyond describing and our efforts to define in black and white things like calvinism and its opposing theories is truly beyond anyone's capabilities.
I was raise Southern Baptist in Brazil and I can tell you understanding and embracing calvinism healed many wounds in my previous Southern Baptist legalistic soul. It truly put the AMAZING back into Grace.
_____________________________
Life is short, pray hard!
Welcome to the thread DanieleP. Good post.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 4:23:37 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
So, for about the 5th time, why was Adam ashamed?
Where does The Bible say Adam was ashamed ?
Genesis 2:25 (King James Version)
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
This time I REALLY didn't understand !
Manna, had you been following rw's posts, you would have known that he was referring to Adam's hiding himself from the Lord when the Lord was walking in the garden AFTER he sinned. When the Lord asked him why was he hiding, he said that he was naked and hid. Gen 3:10. Your use of Gen 2:25 was WAY out of context, Manna. Please follow the discussions BEFORE you respond to one. Thanks.
rw was correctly noting that Adam hid himself BECAUSE he was ashamed of his "new" condition. Can you explain his guilt, in light of being unregenerate?
btw, he was still quite "God conscious", even though unregenerate. Can you explain that as well, in light of your theology?
The bible says that the reason they hid themselves is because they were afraid not because they were ashamed.
(Genesis 3:10) And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."
But...Adam was created without clothes, and was always naked. So, what was the difference now?
He sinned, and as a result of it, he became aware of some change in himself. What was before innocent and natural, now there something different to hide.
I believe he was "afraid" because he was quite aware that he had disobeyed the command of the Lord.
What you cannot deny is that he was hiding because of what he had done. He hid from the fact that he had an awareness (we also call this the conscience) of what he had done, which was rw's point.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 4:32:47 PM
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FreeGrace
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Joined: 12/30/2005
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