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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:41:04 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7875
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Since angels are not themselves objects of redemption , they desire to look into mans redemption and salvation ; in essence , it does teach angels of God's wisdom .
But , do you seriously believe that God's redemption and salvation of man is geared more to the purpose of teaching angels something , or more geared to saving man ?
So.......you need to ask yourself this : is the redemption and salvation of man more important to God , or is teaching the angels about His wisdom (which they surely know much about already) more important to
Are you re-writing the verse ?
God wants to be known, so He reveals Himself.
Yes. Romans 1 speaks of what God Himself reveals to everyone.
quote:
Through the church...to the heavenly folk.
Just who are these "heavenly folk", since you think that God reveals Himself through the church? Just who is the "church" revealing TO?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:41:12 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Just like God dangling salvation in the face of the non-elect for no reason at all except He likes to dangle it . Its called Calvinism .
Don't know what your point is.......
But consider these types of "DANGLING"
---God dangles health in front of sick
---food in front of hungry
---security in front hopeless
---peace in front of anxious
---prestige in front of forgotten
How does God dangle health in front of the sick ? I guess by sending physicians to impoverished countries to treat the sick free of charge .
Or food in front of hungry ? I guess by laying on the hearts of His people to supply tons of food to the hungry in every part of the world where they are allowed to take it .
Or security in front of hopeless ? I guess by supplying peace keepers to all parts of the world .
Or peace in front of anxious ? See above .
Or prestige in front of forgotten ? I guess by His saints remembering the forgotten in their prayers .
What planet do you live on ?
Do you reside in a gated community ?
Are you insulated form the real world ?
You have never seen a beggar on the street ?
Isn't he surrounded by people wealthier than him ?
And the sick forgotten vet, that the VA won't help ?
Why does he see nothing but robust workout freaks ?
And children living in squalor, sifting through the garbage
for food while patrons of sidewalk cafes eat dainties.
God does NOT deal with us fairly, does He ?
Even though your welfare theology implies it.
Are we all gifted with similar talents ?
Do we all have identical abilities ?
Does everyone have a financial surplus ?
Is everyone blessed with family and friends ?
Don't some folks just appear luckier than others ?
But, back to your "insight"...
God dangling salvation in front of the UN elect.
I have given you numerous facts of what God is
really and actually dangling in front of people.
Your shaky assessment has no substance or merit.
Certainly there isn't the slightest truth contained in it.
How does the reprobate "SEE" this salvation ?
Why would he or could he care even remotely ?
You illustrate a man believing in something that
he cannot see, hear, or even acknowledge.
How then does God dangle it in a taunting manner,
when the dead man does not even know of salvation ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:47:32 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7875
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
Odeliya,
I understand that Arminians don't believe this, nor do I think you or FG believe it. But it's not a mischaracterization of the FW position; it's an ad absurdum argument that puts pressure on the logical extension of the FW position. IOW, not to insult your intellignce, the FW position teaches that God calls all equally. If that's the case, Calvinists naturally wonder on what basis some would choose and some wouldn't, since the foundation of the choice resides within the creature in the FW system.
The problem for the FW position is simply that there's no good answer (unless someone would like to offer one). This does not refute the FW position in itself, but it is a severe difficulty with it. The only answer seems to be an appeal to nescience or to acknowledge the difficulty and state that it is paradoxical. These are both intellectually honest responses and no FW'er should back away from the difficulty--they should embrace it. to act like it isn't a problem, is, well, a problem.
Marvelous post !!!
Doesn't the FWer appear elitist ?
How so? Appears to me that the calvinist is WAY MORE ELITIST with their thinking that God chose them for no good reason!
quote:
---afterall he could chose, other can't
Once again, Manna is trying to mischaracterize the FW pov, which ALWAYS has been that everyone IS ABLE TO BELIEVE, but some refuse to. it is so sad that this total fabrication keeps on in spite of the frequent corrections.
quote:
Others are deficient...not the FWer !
Yep, as much as he can, he just wants to mischaracterize the FW pov. He either is purposely doing this, or he simply cannot understand the pov and therefore keeps mischaracterizing it.
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---seems God favored them w/ something
This phrase is absolutely hilarious in light of the fact that it is spoken by one of the "frozen chosen" or "select elect"! 
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The FWer is stronger, better, and faster !!!
That's it, Manna. Just keep up the attempt to mischaracterize the pov that you despise. How sad that you cannot be honest here. I know you know better.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:50:34 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7875
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
quote:
The "process" of believing is intellectual. Calvinists want to spiritualize everything and claim that believing in Christ is a spiritual phenomenon. But facts are facts. Believing the gospel is believing the claims found in the gospel. All of that is intellectual.
Freegrace,
Since believing is an intellectual pursuit in your estimation, I gather that you chose Christ because you were smarter than your unsaved neighbor. However, there are worse things afoot here. Belief in Christ is not a spiritual phenomenon? I can't think that you really mean this. This is akin to a flat-out Pelagian conception of salvation. I would encourage the arminians on this thread to join in refuting this statement. It should be something we can all agree on. But then again, perhaps in the heat of the moment you made a claim you really don't believe...
If Christ isn't spiritual, what is He ?
He is the God-man, Manna. That wasn't the discussion. Are you paying attention? The discussion is what is the process of believing.
quote:
A slightly better version of man ?
You are being silly.
quote:
DO tell us please !
I just did. Hope you read it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:56:23 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7875
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Just like God dangling salvation in the face of the non-elect for no reason at all except He likes to dangle it . Its called Calvinism .
Don't know what your point is.......
But consider these types of "DANGLING"
---God dangles health in front of sick
---food in front of hungry
---security in front hopeless
---peace in front of anxious
---prestige in front of forgotten
How does God dangle health in front of the sick ? I guess by sending physicians to impoverished countries to treat the sick free of charge .
Or food in front of hungry ? I guess by laying on the hearts of His people to supply tons of food to the hungry in every part of the world where they are allowed to take it .
Or security in front of hopeless ? I guess by supplying peace keepers to all parts of the world .
Or peace in front of anxious ? See above .
Or prestige in front of forgotten ? I guess by His saints remembering the forgotten in their prayers .
What planet do you live on ?
Do you reside in a gated community ?
Are you insulated form the real world ?
Manna, may I suggest something to you? Please save your absurd and meaningless questions that have absolutely no redeeming social value whatever on this thread. Can you just stay with the issues and discussion and leave your childish questions alone?
quote:
God dangling salvation in front of the UN elect.
Actually, Jesus plainly promised salvation to those you would call the "non-elect" and the ones Jesus didn't die for. Why do you suppose He promised them they wouldn't die in their sins IF they believed in Him IF He wasn't going to die for them? Could they be saved IF Christ didn't die for them even though they believed? Of course not. So, either Jesus lied to them, OR calvinsim is in error on who Christ died for. What is your answer?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:01:56 PM
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willfs
Posts: 332
Joined: 12/28/2007
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Okay, I thought I'd shoot something at the Arminianists. This might not be a sure fire arguement but I would think it would at least lead someone to question their strict adherance to free will.
More come to Christ in certain towns in America every year than some whole countries. Is this because those small towns have people who just happen to make the choice to choose God much more than those in certain other areas? If so, then why does this trend continue every year? No, a large portion of their population is Christian and they are just passing on their faith from one generation to the next. You don't have to work for Zogby to know that certain factors make it much more likely for a person to come to Christ - christian parents, christian friends, church experiences....etc... Of course there are exceptions but its easy to see a that these factors make it much more likely for a person to be a Christian. In fact, there are even remote communities where someone has never come to Christ and, unless a missionary finds the place, they never will, simply because they don't have certain factors that other communities have.
Why would God allow this? Why did he give me (and most of my other Christian friends) parents who are believers and a christian community and he didn't do so for some guy in a remote tribe of Africa. If he sent the babies of those tribes christian parents and a christian community then that tribe would see many come to Christ.
From our view it seems like chance but in reality his soveriegnty is very much at play. I heard someone who said he could explain all of the curses on Egypt using science. He even said the water could turn red from bacteria. He could be right. From our point of view those things might have been explained by both mere coincidences of nature AS WELL AS God's hand. Every once in a while God will do something to make it exceptionally obvious (something supernatural) to let us know "Hey, I am still working in this world." But think about your answers to prayers. From out point of view, everything seems to be based on mere coincidence and human free choice. However, we know God's hand is also there at play at the same time. I prayed for a job. I desperately needed a job with benifits. I just so happen to be given exactly what I was needed by, what seemed to be, a freak accident. Did God reach down and plant the job? Did an angel threaten the personel director of my job to hire me or else? No, from my point of view it was all based on mere coincidence and human decisions. But, by faith, I believe it was his handiwork.
Its the same with salvation. God's not leaving it up to certain factors for who will come to Christ. It looks that way from our point of view but its not totally true.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:21:28 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7875
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
Okay, I thought I'd shoot something at the Arminianists. This might not be a sure fire arguement but I would think it would at least lead someone to question their strict adherance to free will.
Rather than capture your whole quote, I'll just speak to your argument. No doubt there seem to be "factors" that seem to be related to more believing in Christ in some parts of the world than others. But, none of those factors give us any clue as to the whole story.
We know enough from Scripture that God HAS made clear to everyone His existence, including His power, nature, and attributes, from Romans 1. These things are said to be clearly seen by those He has made evident. Romans 1 goes further; no one has an excuse for not recognizing Him as God, honoring Him and being thankful to Him. So, even those born and living in "remote" parts of the world have no excuse for recognizing that God exists as Creator, AND honoring Him with thankfulness.
Romans 1 also speaks to those who do recognize God but don't honor Him as God nor are thankful. What do you suppose God does with those? Why should He give them more evidece, such as the gospel, since they aren't interested?
What about Cornelius? He, as an unbeliever Gentile, was "God-fearing", which means reverence, and he prayed continually. The result? God sent an angel with more divine truth. He believed that evidence and God sent Peter, with the gospel, which he believed. Cornelius was a seeker of God, as a result of being aware of Him and giving Him reverence.
I got a kick out of your attempt to give "pause" to the non-calvinists. I'm no arminian, just to keep the record clear here. I've posed some questions to the calvinists that I think should give "pause" to the calvinists.
Consider John 8:24. Jesus said, "you WILL die in your sins, UNLESS you believe that I am He". Now, He said the Truth. He also warned the group of the consequences of either believing or nor believing. That can be taken as a promise as well.
Now, consider who He said that to. The crowd was made up of both the elect and non-elect. v.30 and 31 reveal that many believed in Him while He spoke. v.43 reveals that the others couldn't hear Him because their father was the devil.
Now, can you explain to me WHY He promised salvation to the "non-elect" IF calvinism is true about Christ NOT dying for the non-elect? Seems to me His promise was nothing more than a lie, if calvinism is true.
Also, WHY did He warn the "pre-faith" elect that they WOULD die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him? Does calvinism really think that the elect are EVER in danger of dying in their sins? I don't think so.
So, for me, John 8:24 is proof that calvinism is in error. Please explain why Jesus said what He did to both groups. Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:41:21 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
SovIsHe
He's on something....
As in he if full of it? I hope this is a typo.
More like smoking crack...
FYI, this man is the founding dean of Beeson Divinity School.
And who you are?
Holds masters degree from Harvard Divinity School and Doctor of Theology from Harvard.
And your theological training is where?
He has written numerous books and articles including:
Theology of the Reformers and Baptist Theologians amongst others.
Could you list some of your theological publications?
He is the senior editor for Christianity Today, chairs the Theological Education Committee
of the Baptist World Alliance, and several others I will not bore you with.
Smoking crack?????
Give me a break.
One can always desire to study their own doctrine a little more?
Perhaps Odeliya can tell you where to get it for free.
If not, it is a Lifeway publication. Ten bucks.
Endorsed by the presidents of Union University, the Southwest Bapt. Theol. Sem.
and a professor of theology at Midwest Baptist Theol. Sem.
I guess their smoking something, too, heh?
I suggest you get the workbook and get to it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:55:37 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The context of this quote is a mystery. Is he talking post-salvation sanctification?
I believe I posted the website addy... And, no he's not talking about alking post-salvation sanctification.
quote:
If not, please explain to me how the depraved, God-hating creature can "gladly submit" to God?
He can't... Piper is speaking to the fact that what good man does isn't good in the eyes of God based on the idea that what is no done in faith is a sin... How can man dead in the spirit have faith... Proverbs says even the tender mercies of the wicked are evil, their work, and even their sacrifices...
You must come to grips with the fact that the wicked can repent.
Do a word search on "wicked" and "turn" or "turn from".
There's like 11 verses. You can sift through them.
You'll have trouble with Eze. 18:23.
Tell me, WHY did men all of a sudden begin to call on the name of the Lord in Gen 4:26?
The Bible doesn't indicate anything changed; that God suddenly "enabled" men, does it?
Since we know Adam did not lose his moral ability, it is logical that no other men did either.
If evil man cannot repent WHY does God desire sinners to repent and rejoices when they do?
If evil men are unable to repent, WHY does the Bible say Jezebel wasn't willing AFTER God waited for her to do it?
No, man is NOT totally depraved, but is, as George says more accurately, radically depraved.
Of course a noted theological professor on crack is both radical and depraved, no?
It is man's nature that is depraved and what he does reflects his nature.
But man IS created in the image of God and man IS able to recognize his sin.
Please tell me if man has no ability to recognize his sin WHY Adam was ashamed and hid from God?
YES! He now has knowledge of good evil and still possesses an internal moral witness.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:16:56 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The question is why did Jesus chide his disciples for their lack of faith?
If God gives and controls our faith, why let Peter sink?
God is a rational being, the creator of intelligence and reasoning, no?
God has a purpose in everything he does.
Of course, some hide behind "He's God, get used to it".
I hope that's not your mindset.
Easy... To break down the pride of the Jews...
How did Peter's failing faith on a stormy night in the middle of the sea with
a few fellow disciples, some of whom might not have even seen it
break down the pride of the Jews?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:18:23 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1620
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Do God’s Demands Prove Ability?
Yes and no.
Yes, because man has the faculties (mind, will, conscience, etc.) given by God which man should use to the glory and honor of God. All men are without excuse for their sin (Rom 1).
sadly for me I still cant see how the above C premise can be possibly true. Person is w/t excuse for sin only if he can (literally able) but doesn’t want to.
That is exactly the point I was making. All men are without excuse for their sin before God; Romans 1 makes this clear. All men have chosen of their own free will to dishonor God - natural man just does not want to honor God. My reasoning continues below.
quote:
Thief is able to not steal, a liar can tell the truth , people can resist gossip, child can study instead of playing, an obese person can close the fridge door and do for a walk,junkie can, even that he goes thru withdrawal, stay away from drugs, smoker can , drunk can..etc.
Just randomly selected, popular daily sins .We are without excuse for them for we are capable not to do them, we have necessary faculties. However we are not capable to believe( per C) just as we are not capable to sprout wings and fly.
A person is not able to believe Him whom he do not trust. The incapability is not physical, like sprouting wings, but is moral in nature. A person who hates someone is not capable of an act motivated by love based upon the fact that he hates the person. Fallen man stubbornly does not trust God and therefore will not believe the truth; man's obstinate distrust renders him unable to believe. Regeneration changes the obstinate heart of a person thus graciously changing his desires. Man is completely responsible before God but God graciously regenerates.
quote:
It is not the lack of wanting; it is the lack of ABILITY. We are born without the ability to believe,we lack the faculties that makes us capable, how can we be without excuse for not believing?
I disagree here. It is a lack of wanting. A person who does not want God is unable to want Him at the same time. Regeneration directly affects the heart or the source of desire. Regeneration is a gracious act of God, not based upon anything within man, but based upon God's lovingkindness, mercy and grace alone.
quote:
Until regenerated, acc. to C, we cant believe. If it is fair to hold us accountable for not believing, why wouldn’t it be fair to hold us responsible for not flying, lets say?
It is the justice of God (fairness has nothing to do with this) that condemns man because he refuses to believe. Does man refuse to believe because he does not have the faculties to believe? Not at all. It is because man does not want to believe Him whom he does not trust.
quote:
:)I know we talked about it SHalready ,and I appreciate your view, but just can't agree.
I understand and respect you in holding your view. I am thankful that we can be born of the same Father, by the same Savior and thus be in the same family and respectfully disagree.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:26:33 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3876
Joined: 3/30/2007
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umcbee,
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
So.......you need to ask yourself this : is the redemption and salvation of man more important to God , or is teaching the angels about His wisdom (which they surely know much about already) more important to God ?
I asked myself and realized that you left out an option.
The most important thing is that God be glorified. Period. And God has a plan to ensure that comes to pass. All of creation will glorify Him.
Salvation for man is part of that plan. Showing (or reminding) the rulers and authorities in the heavenlies that He is God is part of that plan. To unite all things in Him is part of that plan.
The reason for God's grace is so that He can be glorified. It's about Him, not us. We're merely the blessed recipients of grace--which we don't deserve--according to His will, that His purpose be manifested: God being glorified.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:33:32 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3876
Joined: 3/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Why don't you deal with the truth of my entire post (?) instead of snipping this tid-bit out , only because you simply see an opportunity for a snide remark ; that in no way deals with the truth of my post . Nor gives any credence to your purpose of posting in this thread .
That came out after several weeks of frustration at reading words like: silly, nonsense, absurd, meaningless, dishonest...after being accused inaccurately...after seeing the God I love represented and described from a false Calvinist perspective (in a manner in which my beliefs do not depict him)...
I've tried to avoid making comments like that one, but I had a weak moment. I promise you that I didn't intend it with any malice, though. It was simply a playful joke, similar to some of the jokes that people from all povs have made.
Regardless, I apologize if my joke offended you or anyone else.
Edit: wrong quote
< Message edited by shemaromans -- 9/4/2008 11:14:17 PM >
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:40:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I submit that if you are a true determinist your theology will take
you to a place you really don't want to go. The end result
for determinism is the denigration of the character of God.
If you are a compatibilist you are nothing more than a
"determinist wannabe" who can't stand the thought of what
his philosophy is going to do to God's character.
You decide - you REALLY want a Westminister-type God -
who they think is off the hook simply because they pronounce
him innocent with a "release from liability" statement and
instead put it on the miserable creature who had no choice!?
Look, either God determines everything or he doesn't, including sin.
Didn't God know you would sin ?
Yet, God created you to show grace.
God created me for relationship and worship.
quote:
You really don't believe your own words-
Is He liable, and do you make Him culpable
because He created you, and you sinned ?
Even though God made us "fallen", we are
still responsible, even if it's really "unfair".
God is a sinner b/c He creates us as sinners ?
Manna, do you need a bendadryl?
Or would you rather some of the stuff Professor George is on?
"God made us fallen"????
ADAM brought it on us. Our SIN makes us fallen, not God.
God knew it, Adam blew it, now we are stewin in it.
"God made us fallen, and we are still responsible"????
The God of rational thought and logic is rational and logical, bro.
You are staring straight at the ugliness determinism makes of God
and you have no way out but to accuse ME of making him culpable?
YOUR theology is the one accusing God!
YOUR theology is the one he says he has predetermined each and every
sin you will do, but still fingers man for the crime he was created to do!
Like a pitbull bred to ravage little bitty doggies is responsible for
eating the neighbors Chihuahua , right? Personally I have no problem with this
(at least the Chihuahua part )
No - the owner is responsible for not giving anger management training  and
is rightfully charged with the crime, even though "Jaws" gets the needle.
Back to theology:
Mine says I have a choice to sin or not, saved or not.
Adam gained a special knowledge. All men have it.
Adam had an internal moral witness, hence the fig leaves. All men have it.
We are created in the image of God.
Something of God is in every man and he is without excuse.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:51:22 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
You have never seen a beggar on the street ?
He's living the life God has determined for him.
quote:
Isn't he surrounded by people wealthier than him ?
Well, God did create some luckier than others.
quote:
And the sick forgotten vet, that the VA won't help ?
God has determined it, so just deal with it!
quote:
And children living in squalor, sifting through the garbage
for food while patrons of sidewalk cafes eat dainties.
Now why would God treat children like that?
quote:
God does NOT deal with us fairly, does He ?
Of course not.
What's worse, he doesn't tell us why he loves some and hates others, does he?
quote:
Even though your welfare theology implies it.
Hasn't free will theology been ordained by God, Manna?
Deal with it.
quote:
Don't some folks just appear luckier than others ?
Yeah, some have won the salvation lottery, haven't they?
quote:
Why would he or could he care even remotely ?
Why did Adam hide from God?
quote:
You illustrate a man believing in something that
he cannot see, hear, or even acknowledge.
Sounds a little like faith to me.
quote:
How then does God dangle it in a taunting manner,
when the dead man does not even know of salvation ?
Well then, mount up Manna.
They won't learn of it unless somebody tell them!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:55:13 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: online
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quote:
How so? Appears to me that the calvinist is WAY MORE ELITIST with
their thinking that God chose them for no good reason!
Yeah, Free!
Wouldn't you be if you were one of God's selected elect?
Here's a plan: Choose some and to hell with the rest.
Get rid of the scum and keep the best.
And let previlege go to the head of prideful, sinful man.
Yeah, that's a plan!
NOT!!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:58:49 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1620
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
umcbee,
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
So.......you need to ask yourself this : is the redemption and salvation of man more important to God , or is teaching the angels about His wisdom (which they surely know much about already) more important to God ?
I asked myself and realized that you left out an option.
The most important thing is that God be glorified. Period. And God has a plan to ensure that comes to pass. All of creation will glorify Him.
Salvation for man is part of that plan. Showing (or reminding) the rulers and authorities in the heavenlies that He is God is part of that plan. To unite all things in Him is part of that plan.
The reason for God's grace is so that He can be glorified. It's about Him, not us. We're merely the blessed recipients of grace--which we don't deserve--according to His will, that His purpose be manifested: God being glorified.
This has hit the spiritual nail on the head. God does all things for this end; to manifest His glory. There us nothing higher in the mind of God. The reason for salvation is God's glory.
I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth, Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 NASB95)
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-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 10:03:37 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 417
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Since Peter did walk on the water, he obviously had the ability, even though it wasn't natural.
It was only temporary for that ocasion.
My point is that when God commands, there is obviously ability.
Just as the man who had a withered hand. He couldn't strech it out until Jesus told him to(Mat 12:13, Mark 3:5, Luke 6:10)
The command to "Stretch forth his hand" implyed ability, just as all commands.
However, the Calvs & the Refs don't think the commands of God imply ability, they go even farther and say that God disables as HE did to Pharaoh.
At least we can agree that it wasn't natural.
Here is why we Calvs and Refs don't think the commands of God imply ability.
(John 6:26) Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.
(John 6:27) Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
Jesus commands these Jews to labor not for belly food but spiritual food.
They grumble and complain and are not willing to do so.
They want "There Best life Now" so to speak. They see Jesus just as a meal ticket.
Agree so far?
The problem is unbelief. Which is the problem that the whole world lies in.
(John 6:64) But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
We are saved by grace through faith and Jesus is omniscient. No damage to free will so far.
But the next verse absolutely blows it to smithereens.
(John 6:65) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Jesus doesn't say any of those things you freewillers say.
He doesn't say what RWE says that "the one thing you can do is repent and everything else is up to me"
He doesn't say what Freegrace says that "all men have the ability to seek and honor God based on creation"
He doesn't say what you just said "Look I just commanded you to labor for the food that doesn't perish and a command implies ability"
He states plainly that "no one CAN come unless it is given to them of the Father".
NO ONE CAN means inablility.
Which do we go with?
A command implies ability. By human reasoning, I agree with you.
But I can not go with what is implied when I have the plain words of Jesus saying just the opposite.
I must go with what is clearly revealed not what is implied.
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(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 10:06:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
You must come to grips with the fact that the wicked can repent.
Nope... Not going backwards...
quote:
You'll have trouble with Eze. 18:23.
Why? Is it written in invisible ink?
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The Bible doesn't indicate anything changed; that God suddenly "enabled" men, does it?
Yes is does...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 10:07:21 PM
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