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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 5:27:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
SovIsHe
He's on something....
As in he if full of it? I hope this is a typo.
More like smoking crack...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 5:34:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The context of this quote is a mystery. Is he talking post-salvation sanctification?
I believe I posted the website addy... And, no he's not talking about alking post-salvation sanctification.
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If not, please explain to me how the depraved, God-hating creature can "gladly submit" to God?
He can't... Piper is speaking to the fact that what good man does isn't good in the eyes of God based on the idea that what is no done in faith is a sin... How can man dead in the spirit have faith... Proverbs says even the tender mercies of the wicked are evil, their work, and even their sacrifices...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 5:37:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The question is why did Jesus chide his disciples for their lack of faith?
If God gives and controls our faith, why let Peter sink?
God is a rational being, the creator of intelligence and reasoning, no?
God has a purpose in everything he does.
Of course, some hide behind "He's God, get used to it".
I hope that's not your mindset.
Easy... To break down the pride of the Jews... Where did Christ say the greatest faith was found? In a Roman solider... Christ used people the Jews looked down upon to break their pride... The Good Samaritan...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 5:39:30 PM
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Diolectic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGracequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Peter only took his attention of Jesus & onto the roaring sea.
Nope. Jesus asked him why he doubted. Peter Never doubted in Jesus.
He only waivered that He could walk on water when Jesus said to come.
That is why Peter, first, asked Jesus to call him to walk to Jesus on the water(Mat 14:28); because he knew he couldn't without Jesus telling him to.
However, when Peter saw the strong wind(actually the waives which the strong wind produced), he was frightened and he waivered(the greek word used for doubted) between Jesus' command (wichich implyes ability) to come and walk on the water and the impoibility of walking on the water.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 5:50:01 PM
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tdd1975
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Not insane. Do you equate being devoured with being tempted? I'd much rather be tempted than be devoured. I can resist temptation but how do you resist being devoured.
The point of the text is to tell us how to not be devoured.
8Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh
about, seeking whom he may devour, 9whom withstand stedfast in your
faith, knowing that the same sufferings are accomplished in your brethren
who are in the world.
We do it by being watchful and sober and in the next verse by standing steadfast in our faith.
What does it mean by being watchful and sober? Doesn’t it mean to be awake and prayerful?
This is something that must have hit home with Peter. Remember in his denial of our Lord, Peter was not sober and watchful. He couldn’t pray for one hour.
But let’s look at this text.
31Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as
wheat: 32but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do
thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren.
Would you agree that Satan desired to devour Peter? He wanted to sift him as wheat.
What was to keep him from it?
Our Lord made supplication for him that his faith fail not and the promise was made that he would turn again and then he was to strengthen his brethren.
Did Jesus’ promise that Peter would be converted and his faith fail not keep Satan from sifting him or trying to anyway? No.
Evidently he shows no regard for what Jesus said here.
That is my point. We can’t use the antics of Satan to prove things theologically.
He is a liar and the truth is not in him. If it is not in him then we can’t get it from him.
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(Mark 13:22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
What do you think that means? Do you think it is possible for the elect to be seduced?
No. Do you? I thought you believed in once saved always saved?
What does being devoured mean to you?
Strong's defines it as being drowned, swallowed up, or gulp entirely
If Satan can snatch and devour us at any whim then what of the promise in John 10:28 and 29
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(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 5:58:35 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
Peter Never doubted in Jesus.
He only waivered that He could walk on water when Jesus said to come.
That is why Peter, first, asked Jesus to call him to walk to Jesus on the water(Mat 14:28); because he knew he couldn't without Jesus telling him to.
However, when Peter saw the strong wind(actually the waives which the strong wind produced), he was frightened and he waivered(the greek word used for doubted) between Jesus' command (wichich implyes ability) to come and walk on the water and the impoibility of walking on the water.
I almost agreed with everything you said here Dio. I agree that Peter didn't totally lose faith or he wouldn't have called out to Jesus to save him.
But then you have in parenthesis (which implies ability). What is up with that? The ability to walk on water was not naturally in Peter. That is the point of looking to Jesus for it.
Please explain.
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(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:02:34 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The question is why did Jesus chide his disciples for their lack of faith?
If God gives and controls our faith, why let Peter sink?
God is a rational being, the creator of intelligence and reasoning, no?
God has a purpose in everything he does.
Of course, some hide behind "He's God, get used to it".
I hope that's not your mindset.
Easy... To break down the pride of the Jews... Where did Christ say the greatest faith was found? In a Roman solider... Christ used people the Jews looked down upon to break their pride... The Good Samaritan...
Can you explain WHY Jesus praised the soldier anyway, if God gave his his great faith? Also, why Jesus chided his own disciples for their occasional lack of faith?
btw, how do you explain Peter's water walking stint, where he started out with a strong faith, then he obviously lost it, and Jesus rescued him?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:08:43 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGracequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Peter only took his attention of Jesus & onto the roaring sea.
Nope. Jesus asked him why he doubted. Peter Never doubted in Jesus.
He only waivered that He could walk on water when Jesus said to come.
That is why Peter, first, asked Jesus to call him to walk to Jesus on the water(Mat 14:28); because he knew he couldn't without Jesus telling him to.
Yes, that is why he got out of the boat in the first place. But you need to explain WHY Peter began to sink. It was because he doubted, as Jesus clearly noted.
Now, just what was he doubting? His own "ability"? No. He had NO ability. Who was holding him up? Jesus. The One with all the ability. So, what was he doubing? Jesus' ability to keep him up.
quote:
However, when Peter saw the strong wind(actually the waives which the strong wind produced), he was frightened and he waivered(the greek word used for doubted) between Jesus' command (wichich implyes ability) to come and walk on the water and the impoibility of walking on the water.
He doubted. That IS lack of faith.
He chided His own disciples in Matt 8:26 during a fierce storm. He chided them in v.26 "Why are you timid, you men of little faith?"
He chided Peter in Matt 14:31, "O you of little faith".
Or when Jesus chided His disciples in Matt 16:8 "You men of little faith".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:20:17 PM
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willfs
Posts: 332
Joined: 12/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I cannot accept that v.13-18 speak of every human being. Rather, Paul appears to have chosen 7 OT sources to demonstrate the various ways that everyone is "under sin". Some for refusing to seek Him (fools) in v.10-12, some for their deceiving lips in v.13, some for their cursing and bitterness in v.14, some for murder in v.15, some for their paths that create destruction and misery in v.16, some for living the opposite of peaceful lives in v.17, and some for having no reverence or awe of God in v.18.
To think that v.10-12 speaks of all of humanity isn't rational, given v.13-18, which cannot be speaking of all of humanity in each category.
Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If you read Acts 10, you will read of a Gentile unbeliever (unregenerate) who was quite cognizant of God as Creator, and He reverenced Him and prayed continually. The result of his response to what God made evident to him per Rom 1 is that God heard his prayers, and sent an angel with
Yeah, whether someone comes to God through hearing about him in church, through their parents, through circumstances in life, through their concious, through nature or whatever - its all the same. From our point of view it is about circumstances and free will. From God's point of view its about predestination.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:24:43 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Yes, I got it. And I agree that He died for all. Otherwise, why would He have promised salvation through faith in Himself to those he described as the devil's children in John 8:24? Calvinism cannot explain it because calvinism denies that Christ died for everyone. If Christ hadn't died for everyone, then what He promised to those "non-elect" in John 8:24 was a lie.
Since Jesus as God cannot lie, per Titus 1:2, limited atonement is proven to be a false doctrine.
What promises and to who ?
Who are the promises made to specifically ?
The "promises of God" are NOT for all men.
Or are you calling God a liar...?
Galatians 3:16 (King James Version)
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:28:31 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
quote:
"For it is impossible for those who WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED of the heavenly gift and WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, and have tasted the ggood word of God and the powers of the world to come, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY to renew them again unto repentence seeing they crucify to themselves the son of god afresh and put him to an open shame"
This is one of the most troubling passages in all of scripture. All churches everywhere most likely have these types of people. They are those who have been around marvelous examples of the Spirit of God and yet their heart has remained hard. They have been exposed to the word of God and the gospel has been clearly presented. In the end they will fall away and eventually out and out reject Christ, even act as apostates. They have been left to themselves and their consciences have been seared. Take heart that Jesus will lose not one of His sheep, He will finish the work He has begun.
From the infamous 1 John 2
1 John 2:19 (King James Version)
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:32:44 PM
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willfs
Posts: 332
Joined: 12/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
I am not sure how much he is responsible for but the Bible says he is responsible for our saving faith.
Please give me a clear verse that states that well enough that "interpretation" isn't necessary. Thanks.
I am sure you have heard all these before but:
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[a] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[c] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[d] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom. 9:11-18
16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 15:16
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Acts 13:48
14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
Acts 16:14
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:35:22 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I submit that if you are a true determinist your theology will take
you to a place you really don't want to go. The end result
for determinism is the denigration of the character of God.
If you are a compatibilist you are nothing more than a
"determinist wannabe" who can't stand the thought of what
his philosophy is going to do to God's character.
You decide - you REALLY want a Westminister-type God -
who they think is off the hook simply because they pronounce
him innocent with a "release from liability" statement and
instead put it on the miserable creature who had no choice!?
Look, either God determines everything or he doesn't, including sin.
Didn't God know you would sin ?
Yet, God created you to show grace.
You really don't believe your own words-
Is He liable, and do you make Him culpable
because He created you, and you sinned ?
Even though God made us "fallen", we are
still responsible, even if it's really "unfair".
God is a sinner b/c He creates us as sinners ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:41:52 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
quote:
I understand that God is fully in control and sovereign, and I also understand that He, within His sovereignty, created mankind with freedom of thought and choice and He even delegated authority to mankind to subdue the earth and all living things,
Sorry to jump in here, but I couldn't resist. Seems like the point of this thread anyway.
FreeGrace,
Seems like you misunderstand words and their meaning. I can understand that, knowing the culture in which we preside. Just how "fully in control" can God be when man's choices take their necessary preeminance in your scheme of free will? Or more simply put - Who is really sovereign if libertine free will be true? Words like predestination have meanings, you cannot circumvent them with your understanding of foreknowledge. Besides, surely you know God's omniscience would preclude any free choice in the libertine sense. This of course is why open theism is a logical outworking of arminianism. Again sorry about jumping in.
Would it be UN-manly to give you a brotherly kiss ? 
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:53:58 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Since angels are not themselves objects of redemption , they desire to look into mans redemption and salvation ; in essence , it does teach angels of God's wisdom .
But , do you seriously believe that God's redemption and salvation of man is geared more to the purpose of teaching angels something , or more geared to saving man ?
So.......you need to ask yourself this : is the redemption and salvation of man more important to God , or is teaching the angels about His wisdom (which they surely know much about already) more important to
Are you re-writing the verse ?
God wants to be known, so He reveals Himself.
Through the church...to the heavenly folk.
God's grace is yet unknown (and unshown) in eternity past.
God's work on the earth is showing more of His nature.
Man is about 8,000 to 10,000 years old in the universe.
Man is not the emphasis (might be to you  ).
God's revealing more of Himself is His desire.
Ephesians 3:10-11 (New American Standard Bible)
10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:00:45 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
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From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975quote:
he waivered(the greek word used for doubted) between Jesus' command (wichich implyes ability) to come and walk on the water and the impoibility of walking on the water. But then you have in parenthesis (which implies ability). What is up with that? The ability to walk on water was not naturally in Peter. That is the point of looking to Jesus for it.
Please explain. Since Peter did walk on the water, he obviously had the ability, even though it wasn't natural.
It was only temporary for that ocasion.
My point is that when God commands, there is obviously ability.
Just as the man who had a withered hand. He couldn't strech it out until Jesus told him to(Mat 12:13, Mark 3:5, Luke 6:10)
The command to "Stretch forth his hand" implyed ability, just as all commands.
However, the Calvs & the Refs don't think the commands of God imply ability, they go even farther and say that God disables as HE did to Pharaoh.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:03:07 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
Odeliya,
I understand that Arminians don't believe this, nor do I think you or FG believe it. But it's not a mischaracterization of the FW position; it's an ad absurdum argument that puts pressure on the logical extension of the FW position. IOW, not to insult your intellignce, the FW position teaches that God calls all equally. If that's the case, Calvinists naturally wonder on what basis some would choose and some wouldn't, since the foundation of the choice resides within the creature in the FW system.
The problem for the FW position is simply that there's no good answer (unless someone would like to offer one). This does not refute the FW position in itself, but it is a severe difficulty with it. The only answer seems to be an appeal to nescience or to acknowledge the difficulty and state that it is paradoxical. These are both intellectually honest responses and no FW'er should back away from the difficulty--they should embrace it. to act like it isn't a problem, is, well, a problem.
Marvelous post !!!
Doesn't the FWer appear elitist ?
---afterall he could chose, other can't
Others are deficient...not the FWer !
---seems God favored them w/ something
The FWer is stronger, better, and faster !!!
(the six million dollar arminian per KJB !)
I say the FWer is a latent Calvinist...LOL
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:06:39 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
quote:
The "process" of believing is intellectual. Calvinists want to spiritualize everything and claim that believing in Christ is a spiritual phenomenon. But facts are facts. Believing the gospel is believing the claims found in the gospel. All of that is intellectual.
Freegrace,
Since believing is an intellectual pursuit in your estimation, I gather that you chose Christ because you were smarter than your unsaved neighbor. However, there are worse things afoot here. Belief in Christ is not a spiritual phenomenon? I can't think that you really mean this. This is akin to a flat-out Pelagian conception of salvation. I would encourage the arminians on this thread to join in refuting this statement. It should be something we can all agree on. But then again, perhaps in the heat of the moment you made a claim you really don't believe...
If Christ isn't spiritual, what is He ?
A slightly better version of man ?
DO tell us please !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:07:15 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7875
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I cannot accept that v.13-18 speak of every human being. Rather, Paul appears to have chosen 7 OT sources to demonstrate the various ways that everyone is "under sin". Some for refusing to seek Him (fools) in v.10-12, some for their deceiving lips in v.13, some for their cursing and bitterness in v.14, some for murder in v.15, some for their paths that create destruction and misery in v.16, some for living the opposite of peaceful lives in v.17, and some for having no reverence or awe of God in v.18.
To think that v.10-12 speaks of all of humanity isn't rational, given v.13-18, which cannot be speaking of all of humanity in each category.
Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
This verse speaks of each human being a sinner, and does not speak of no one seeking Him. I know you are probably distracted by the phrase "gone astray", but that speaks of our sin, not specifically that no one seeks him.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If you read Acts 10, you will read of a Gentile unbeliever (unregenerate) who was quite cognizant of God as Creator, and He reverenced Him and prayed continually. The result of his response to what God made evident to him per Rom 1 is that God heard his prayers, and sent an angel with
Yeah, whether someone comes to God through hearing about him in church, through their parents, through circumstances in life, through their concious, through nature or whatever - its all the same. From our point of view it is about circumstances and free will. From God's point of view its about predestination.
Where do you find any verse that clearly states that God predestinated anyone for salvation apart from any condition?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:16:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7875
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Yes, I got it. And I agree that He died for all. Otherwise, why would He have promised salvation through faith in Himself to those he described as the devil's children in John 8:24? Calvinism cannot explain it because calvinism denies that Christ died for everyone. If Christ hadn't died for everyone, then what He promised to those "non-elect" in John 8:24 was a lie.
Since Jesus as God cannot lie, per Titus 1:2, limited atonement is proven to be a false doctrine.
What promises and to who ?
Where have you been, Manna? What Jesus said in John 8:24 can be understood as a promise. He said, "you WILL die in your sins UNLESS you believe that I am He". That is a statement of truth, yes. It is also a warning of how to avoid dying in your sin. It is ALSO a promise of NOT dying in your sins IF you believe in Christ.
And Jesus promised salvation to those calvinism claims that Christ didn't die for. Isn't that something! If He didn't, then His promise was a lie, huh?
[quoe]Who are the promises made to specifically ?
The crowd to which He addressed in John 8:24 was comprised of both the "elect" (in pre-faith mode) as seen in v.30 and 31, where John notes that many believed in Him, and the "non-elect" who Jesus described as children of the devil in v.43.
Please note that He told both groups the same thing. How can that be possible if Christ hadn't died for both groups?
quote:
The "promises of God" are NOT for all men.
I believe that Jesus would strongly disagree with you, Manna.
quote:
Or are you calling God a liar...?
Re-read this post. I believe you have it backwards.
quote:
Galatians 3:16 (King James Version)
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
OK. What does this verse mean to you, Manna? Why do you end with a verse and not give any explanation? I suppose you think this verse very clearly supports your pov. But, just what is it?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:27:31 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
There are many examples in scripture that call for human accountability, without first requiring human freedom. Judas' betrayal might be the best example. Are you implying that Judas had no choice?
Fact is that the Prophecies are not causing the event to happen, but only foretelling it will.
God knew that Judas would freely betray Jesus.
We are not talking about a mystery of God that we we can't comprehend. For example the teaching that God "determined" everything to happen. He causes all things, controls every single thing and dominates every little thing, yet man is responsible for sin. This we can comprehend that it is a contradiction to reason.
There is a difference between a mystery and a contradiction.
A mystery is something we do not comprehend. For example, the fact that God lives in endless time, with no beginning or end, this is a mystery. We cannot comprehend eternity.
A contradiction is something that we do comprehend, and it is incompatible with reality and another truth. We comprehend it, and it is a contradiction.
We cannot call a contradiction a mystery any more than we can call a mystery a contradiction. When something is a mystery, we must not call it a contradiction. And when something is a contradiction, | | |
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