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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 9:47:22 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
quote:
The "process" of believing is intellectual. Calvinists want to spiritualize everything and claim that believing in Christ is a spiritual phenomenon. But facts are facts. Believing the gospel is believing the claims found in the gospel. All of that is intellectual.
Freegrace,
Since believing is an intellectual pursuit in your estimation, I gather that you chose Christ because you were smarter than your unsaved neighbor. However, there are worse things afoot here. Belief in Christ is not a spiritual phenomenon? I can't think that you really mean this. This is akin to a flat-out Pelagian conception of salvation. I would encourage the arminians on this thread to join in refuting this statement. It should be something we can all agree on. But then again, perhaps in the heat of the moment you made a claim you really don't believe...
Belief is intellectual. That is the only thing that we humans are capable of. What makes intellectual belief a saving faith is the work of God on the cross,Only the one who is born again from the spirit is saved and new birth is entirely work of God. I am not sure what you wish to see refuted, friend, i know that is the position of FW.
By itself intellectual belief saves no one, we can believe to our heart content anything we want but until someone else- God -actually provides the salvation, the belief is in vain.When Jesus told the woman :"Your faith saved you" he didnt mean her intellectual belief. HIS work saved her THat is what FG meant.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 10:00:39 PM
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willfs
Posts: 350
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BTW: Do you think they banish those of us who discuss Calvinism/Arminianism to one thread because we annoy everyone else?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 10:01:53 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
I gather that you chose Christ because you were smarter than your unsaved neighbor.
No, because it was your free choice. There are plenty of things i dont understand yet about free will position and some thing i find hard to accept, but all due respect Quix, I have to admit it would be nice to see the real FW position criticized, not the imaginary one , a sheer mischaracterization.
The FW version i see you offer critique for is the one i also disagree with :)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 10:06:20 PM
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quixote
Posts: 59
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
When Jesus told the woman :"Your faith saved you" he didnt mean her intellectual belief. HIS work saved her THat is what FG meant.
I believe he believes that too, as you can tell from my post. But that's not what the words say...I'm sure he'll straighten it out :)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 10:21:31 PM
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quixote
Posts: 59
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
No, because it was your free choice. There are plenty of things i dont understand yet about free will position and some thing i find hard to accept, but all due respect Quix, I have to admit it would be nice to see the real FW position criticized, not the imaginary one , a sheer mischaracterization.
The FW version i see you offer critique for is the one i also disagree with :)
Odeliya,
I understand that Arminians don't believe this, nor do I think you or FG believe it. But it's not a mischaracterization of the FW position; it's an ad absurdum argument that puts pressure on the logical extension of the FW position. IOW, not to insult your intellignce, the FW position teaches that God calls all equally. If that's the case, Calvinists naturally wonder on what basis some would choose and some wouldn't, since the foundation of the choice resides within the creature in the FW system.
The problem for the FW position is simply that there's no good answer (unless someone would like to offer one). This does not refute the FW position in itself, but it is a severe difficulty with it. The only answer seems to be an appeal to nescience or to acknowledge the difficulty and state that it is paradoxical. These are both intellectually honest responses and no FW'er should back away from the difficulty--they should embrace it. to act like it isn't a problem, is, well, a problem.
In like manner, FW'ers naturally attempt to put pressure on Calvinists by constantly referring to the paradox between God's sovereignty and human freedom. I don't disparage them for this. It's a difficulty and an honest question.
I have a real heart for your statement that real versions of arguments should be critiqued, rather than straw men. In fact, I am a staunch Calvinist, but if you would like me to switch sides for a moment and argue the strengths of the FW position to demonstrate a grasp of your real position, say the word and I will be happy to oblige. To be honest, I agree with what I think you are saying: only by truly embracing opposite views, especially in light of Scripture, can one really decide which is correct.
Thanks for a great post. I think I hear you loud and clear. But Odeliya, can a choice really be totally free? I can't think of one that could be :)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 10:23:34 PM
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quixote
Posts: 59
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
BTW: Do you think they banish those of us who discuss Calvinism/Arminianism to one thread because we annoy everyone else?
Willfs:
Yep. I think I have almost worn out my welcome here too :)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 11:03:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
BTW: Do you think they banish those of us who discuss Calvinism/Arminianism to one thread because we annoy everyone else?
Nope.. It was done to make it easier to keep tabs on things(and people) and I personally believe it was done with the hope it would stifle the argument... And to some degree it has... The one stop format doesn't lend itself to dealing with things that cross a broad spectrum.... Sad...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 3:22:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4013
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Your question is pointless as it pertains to salvation since God did not "delagate" any authority in that regard. My question did NOT pertain to salvation, so your claim is irrelevant and pointless. Please pay attention, ok? If it wasn't pertaining to salvation, your question is the epitome of irrelevance. Are you a closet "tree-hugger" or something? I ask because of what appears to be your great concern over trees, mountains, oceans, etc.
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Besides, where do you get God "delegated" anything? Was Adam doing a job that God didn't want to do?
Regarding the first question: this might surprise you, kelman, but I got it from the Bible. Gen 1:27,28.
"And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and RULE OVER the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." You don't get your opinion from the Bible....you get THAT from your theology. Where does it say anywhere in that verse that God DELEGATED His authority to Adam?...it doesn't. Which btw, in case you've forgotten, is your original question.
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Regarding the second question: it is an absurd one. Why would you think God wouldn't "want" to do it? You just cannot cut those strings, can you. Your ego's too inflated, FG. Just because you don't understand a question doesn't make it an absurd one. Is that not the meaning of "delegate"?...not doing a job you are ultimately accountable for? Besides, as usual, these questions of your's are pointless.
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God is not held accountable for the good or bad job man does with creation. A person who does delegate authority IS held accountable. Another of your "examples" just bit the dust. Your silly comment about God not being accountable for what man does is not even close to the discussion. Please focus. And since I've shown you from the Bible where God delegated authority, your comment just "bit the dust".  Nope, you've shown nothing other than your propensity for injecting your theology into a verse. Again, the one who "delegates" is accountable so it is precisely what the discussion is. The problem is you just never pay attention so no wonder you're unaware of the "focus". Again, FG, this entire line of discussion of "delegation" is irrelevant because God neither delegated His authority concerinng creation or salvation....so I'm through with it.
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I'll eliminate "uncertain" when you eliminate your idea that your uncertain choices can be certainly foreknown. You just keep confusing the issue that what is uncertain from man's perspective is NOT uncertain from God's. Your confusion stems from the fact you cannot grasp that your choice must indeed be certain because God has certain foreknowledge of it.
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OK, funny play on words. Here is what I meant and I'm sure most others got it. Just as I also "got it", as you well know, since you just finished saying it was a "funny play on words".
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That's the point....there can be no certainty to your knowledge. The only possible way for it to be a certainty is if you stood behind the man and pushed him into the hole.
there you go again; trying to equate "knowledge" with "cause". It's clear that you really can't grasp my example. All you see are strings that are to be pulled. We've got your number, FG. Your repetitious "can't grasp" simply means someone doesn't agree with you! The fact remains, you gave a silly example which was proven to be such. And it was also proven that your conclusion was erroneous. You resort to what you always resort to...."strings and grasps"...lol
The fact remains the only way to know for certain that the man would fall into the hole - is to push him.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 4:07:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4013
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quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Again, cut the strings, kelman. Why would I do that? I am "connected" to God...why would I want to cut those strings? I was speaking of your puppet strings. You seem unable to grasp anything apart from puppetry. I know precisely what you're talking about...too bad the same can't be said of you. You also fail to grasp that the so-called "puppet strings" are strings that are attached to God. So again, FG, I am "connected" to God...why would I want to cut those strings? More to the point, why wouldn't you want to be?
As for the rest of your post, I'll forego, since whatever answer is given you'll continue to insist none was. That's your modus operandi - dodge ball.
from another FG post
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quote:
And here all along I thought Scripture taught that God's grace is the key. Why do you think grace is the "key" to judgment, the topic I was noting? How does that work? Huh?...surely, you've read about it in the Bible? Risking your ire, I will quote a biblical verse...but, will also give you a hint. What is the opposite of "saved"?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
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Why ever would you think man, who is a slave to sin and Satan, would WANT to come to God? Because God has made Himself evident to everyone, including His power, nature, and attributes, so that no one has any excuse for not redognizing and honoring Him as God and being thankful. Further, God created mankind to seek Him. So why would you think people WOULDN'T want to seek Him? You labor under a misapprehension. While it is true nature is sufficient to know there is a God, without the Gospel and the grace of God as He regenerates the sinner, it avails them little. Man will never seek God with his whole heart until God removes the desperately wicked and deceitful above all things heart for one which yearns for God.
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So, you're saying you are able to choose to obey when God knows you will choose to disobey?...now, that's really a sign of confusion. No, kelman, I'm NOT saying that. I said man is able to choose to obey, period. You're getting very good at your dodge ball, FG. That wasn't the question, now was it?
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There is NO DOUBT that God already knows how everyone will respond. Again....good dodging....since that was NOT the question either, now was it?
quote:
Please get it right for once. 
You certainly prove your confusion by your posts. Since I'm not the one who dodges the question by giving unresponsive and confused answers, these remarks would actually have some relevancy if you addressed them to yourself.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 4:20:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4013
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Yet, the freewiller is emphatic about this. I choose, I did, I believed...that's cool ! Where did all this extra-special ability come from ? God gave them MORE.
Once again, calvinists try to perpetuate the error that the free will pov includes some kind of "special ability", or MORE of it.
Nonsense. God created mankind in His own image, with an intellect to understand what options are placed before him, and the freedom to choose freely which options to believe or reject.
The Bible disagrees with you...
Romans 3:10-12 (King James Version)
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Let me guess..."I don't understand"--- 
Of course, you don't understand, Manna. You just can't seem to "grasp" that these verses only apply to fools...lol
And according to FG, only atheists are fools.....just disregard that part where God says "no, not one"....guess God just made another mistake.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We should start "in the beginning" explaining God's original intention for mankind.
We need restoration. We are restored through redemption and justification. We
cannot get there on our own, but only through faith and repentance are we
born again a new person with a guarantee of eternal life.
Why do you believe this ?
Is this why man was created ?
Is man the reason for everything ?
What is the "original" intention ? 100% correct. To the free willer it's always about man when, in fact, it is always about God. All about the love within the Godhead...the Father gives to the Son in love, the Son gives to the Father in love.
All in all, man is really a very little cog in this engine...and his part in this drama can be likened to an actor where God is not only the Director but the Producer.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 4:44:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4013
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
You ought to start a website. You could name it "Presuppositional Definitions by FreeGrace". While work may mean laboring for wages, it ALSO means deeds or acts. The Bible HAS defined works in Rom 4:4,5, kelman, sicne you are apparently unaware of it. The Bible speaks of "works" as something that creates a debt or earns a wage. Does believing do that? No. That's the difference. Of course, believing creates a debt when it is YOUR faith. When you claim believing is something you can achieve apart from God’s gift it is your faith, your work. We see in Rom 3:22 “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: “ those who believe, that is, those who have faith, are saved by or because of the faith of Christ which in turn is evidence by the good works which includes the faith seen in the life of the one who was saved. That’s a faith which earns no wage.
“What must we do, that we may work the works of God? “This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent” (John 6:29)" Clearly, we observe that believing is a work. Besides, where is grace when salvation depends upon your belief in YOUR faith? Faith is a work of God, which continues working after He graciously makes a gift of it to the undeserving sinner. Saving faith or the faith that justifies is not simply your belief in Christ. Rather, it is a participation in the faith of Christ
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
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Sure I can, FG, because Scripture says that it clearly is a deed or act.
No, you can't and you didn't. I've never claimed that believing isn't something "done", which you want to call "deed" or "act". Fine. You missed my question completely. I asked, "Can you show me in any of these verses where "faith" creates "debt" or "wages" due? You didn't, because you can't, kelman. Which is my point. The Bible has already defined what it considers a "work". In a works salvation system, the one doing "work" is earning salvation. Which is precisely what it is when you claim that saving faith is autonomous.
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Since you proudly proclaim that it is YOUR faith - apart from God, the only thing that's too bad is you wind-up justifying yourself. That's just what it is, kelman, my faith. Jesus clearly acknowledged as much when He chided His own disciples for their lack of faith, and when He praised others for their great faith.
If all faith comes from God, as in "causality", can you explain WHY He didn't chide and praise His own Father instead of those He observed the faith or lack thereof? It’s very simple, FG. As Scripture declares, God gives saving faith. It is His gift to the one He will save. But Scripture also declares that faith is a fruit of the Spirit which means it can grow. Not everyone has equal amounts of fruit, but fruit they WILL have, contrary to your view.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:46:46 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
SovIsHe
He's on something....
As in he if full of it? I hope this is a typo.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:51:14 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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quote:
John Piper nailed it...
There is no doubt that man could perform more evil acts toward his
fellow man than he does. But if he is restrained from performing more
evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God,
then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God.
The context of this quote is a mystery. Is he talking post-salvation sanctification?
If not, please explain to me how the depraved, God-hating creature can "gladly submit" to God?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 7:56:27 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
rwe2156quote:
So this "personal decision" - how can it be so if grace is irresisitible?
When a person is revealed the irresistible Christ, a "personal decision" will be made for Christ. As quixote said, "a person's strongest desire is to choose the beautiful Christ." The strongest motive in the mind and heart will be that which a person "personally wills". When the beauty and glory of Christ is seen in the gospel a choice will be made to follow Him who provides life indeed. When Christ Jesus is seen as giving the highest pleasure and joy, then of course there will be a "personal decision" to follow Him who died and was raised from the dead that I might be made right with God and enjoy Him forever.
Blessings,
SH
Doesn't making a "personal decision" imply the person could reject?
Yes, or course.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:01:12 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
Why didn't Jesus chide God for a lot of things that could appear bad from our point of view: little children suffering, God not striking down the Pharisees and other religious scowndrels,.... because he knew that no matter how certain things might appear to make God seem terrible, he is still someone we can trust in fully.
The question is why did Jesus chide his disciples for their lack of faith?
If God gives and controls our faith, why let Peter sink?
God is a rational being, the creator of intelligence and reasoning, no?
God has a purpose in everything he does.
Of course, some hide behind "He's God, get used to it".
I hope that's not your mindset.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:02:42 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
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ORIGINAL: umcbee
Right FG .
Consider Manna's question : Is man the reason for everything ?
Here's Jesus' own words :The sabbath was made for man , and not man for the sabbath .
I would say that man is the reason Jesus came and died . I would say man is the reason for God's grace , and salvation . It certainly wasn't for the angels nor the demons .
Your quote of Jesus focuses on the Sabbath and man, but you then jump to a giant conclusion that man is the reason for God's plan of salvation.
That's a whole lot of man. (And I assume is the reason that Manna included that question)
But look what Ephesians 3:6-13 says:
"6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 7Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory."
Thank you my dear sister !!!
I absolutley love these verses...post it often !!!
(Might be new to those who don't read posts)
These verses are a mystery to carnal Christians.
To the self-absorbed, these words fracture confidence.
"You mean all this stuff ain't about important me ?"
Earth-shattering what really goes on in Heaven !!!
God is promoting Himself and His royal agenda.
My thoughts, feelings, opinions...irrelevant to God.
KNOWN TO THE RULERS IN HEAVENLY PLACES !!!
Man is a recent work...God has been here forever.
God wanted to reveal something new about Himself.
To who ?...those in the Heavenlies !
The Heavenly congregation saw the fallen angels.
Yet, there was no mercy or forgiveness shown.
God wanted to manifest more of Himself to these
in the Heavenly realms (man NOT even created !).
Fallen angels unforgiven and no mercy...
Man made from dust, received mercy/forgiveness.
Angels long to look into these things !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:29:24 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1781
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
The question is why did Jesus chide his disciples for their lack of faith?
If God gives and controls our faith, why let Peter sink?
God is a rational being, the creator of intelligence and reasoning, no?
Well, there is a man I know of that claims faith comes from within man himself and not from God.
This same man was quite content in preaching to everybody about how free the human will is and nothing seems to restrict this freedom in intellect and will.....you know, "thought control".
He actually had a very early term for this and it was called "free-will".
This same man cannot move a mountain although he claims his faith is great.
We are now finding out that this faith is all based on human "intellect" which is related to the word "intelligence".
We are now also learning that this faith is from within man and his intellect so as a person has faith in Jesus Christ it has nothing to do with any spiritual phenomenon.
So, think about it to yourself.
There is actually a very simple test you can use on free people with this free intellect that freely make faith from within.
Throw them in the lake and watch them walk on water.
You will have no reason to chide God when they start swimming.
It is best to do this test on a very calm day because some poweful and free intellectuals are quite afraid of wind.
quote:
God has a purpose in everything he does.
He certainly does.
He can give a person great strength and take away this same strength in one quick and small breeze.
These people are humbled and yell out: "Save me Jesus"!
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 9:28:39 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Good points!
Thanks. But did you get what I was saying about limited atonment. Many say that for God to predestine only a few to come to Christ would mean that he would only die for that few. I disagree, I think he died for all to show that he loves all and wants all to come to him. It's not foolish for him to die for all - whether he predestined a few to come to him or he only foreknew of the few who would come to thim.
Yes, I got it. And I agree that He died for all. Otherwise, why would He have promised salvation through faith in Himself to those he described as the devil's children in John 8:24? Calvinism cannot explain it because calvinism denies that Christ died for everyone. If Christ hadn't died for everyone, then what He promised to those "non-elect" in John 8:24 was a lie.
Since Jesus as God cannot lie, per Titus 1:2, limited atonement is proven to be a false doctrine.
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Paul in v.10-12 is quoting directly from Psa 14:1 and 53:1, in which the topic is "fools". In that context, "no one" refers to fools. iow, none (no one) of the fools seeks God. Why? Because they deny His existence.
verse 9 (Romans 3) clearly shows that Paul is speaking about all of us as it introduces the description:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
Yes, in 3:9 Paul IS speaking about the entire human race. But, note how he introduces v.10: "as it is written". What follows are quotes from 7 OT sources, the first of which comes from Psa 14:1-3 and 53:1-3. If you want v.10-12 to be speaking of every human being, then you must also accept v.13-18 as being the same.
I cannot accept that v.13-18 speak of every human being. Rather, Paul appears to have chosen 7 OT sources to demonstrate the various ways that everyone is "under sin". Some for refusing to seek Him (fools) in v.10-12, some for their deceiving lips in v.13, some for their cursing and bitterness in v.14, some for murder in v.15, some for their paths that create destruction and misery in v.16, some for living the opposite of peaceful lives in v.17, and some for having no reverence or awe of God in v.18.
To think that v.10-12 speaks of all of humanity isn't rational, given v.13-18, which cannot be speaking of all of humanity in each category.
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I'm not sure of your point here. I've never claimed Acts 17:27 says anyone WILL seek Him. But the point is that He created mankind for that purpose. That being so, man has to be able to do it or God failed in His creation.
You seemed to be saying that Acts 17:27 says that we were made to seek God. This verse talks about God doing certain things in order to get us to reach out to Him. It doesn't mean we will and it is not on God's character if we don't. He did create us for Him. Our rebellion is all about us doing everything but seeking Him, if not for his intervention... and our choice.
It is not I that "seems to be saying" we were made to seek God. That's what Acts 17:27 is saying. "That they should seek God" is the reaon He made the nations (from v.26).
I agree it doesn't mean we will, and it certainly in not on God's character when we don't. And I agree that it IS our choice to seek Him. We were created for that purpose, AND He goes one step further. He has made evident His existence, including His power, nature, and attributes to everyone, so that they are clearly seen so that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him as God, and being thankful to Him, from Romans 1.
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It is just irrational to claim that man cannot or is unable to seek God, since God created man to seek Him. Yet that is the calvinist pov.
I don't know if he can't. He just doesn't, as stated in Romans.
Rom 3:10-12 is a direct quote from Psa 14:1-3 and 53:1-3 and the topic is fools, who say in their heart, there is no God. That rrepresents one way in which mankind is "under sin", from 3:9. Paul then quotes from 6 other OT sources for more illustrations and examples.
To claim that absolutely no human being ever seeks God is not rational, in light of what Scripture has revealed. If you read Acts 10, you will read of a Gentile unbeliever (unregenerate) who was quite cognizant of God as Creator, and He reverenced Him and prayed continually. The result of his response to what God made evident to him per Rom 1 is that God heard his prayers, and sent an angel with more "evidence" or divine Truth. He believed the angel and sent for Peter, who brought the gospel to him. He believed the gospel and got saved.
Calvinism will claim there "just isn't enough evidence" from Acts 10 to conclude one way or another about "what else" God may have done to Cornelius in order to get him to that point. I say nonsense. We have the whole story. If the Holy Spirit wanted us to know that he had to be regenerated in order to even reverence God and pray, then why didn't the Holy Spirit ensure that was included in the text? What a perfect opportunity, if the claims of calvinism were true about regeneration preceding faith.
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