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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 4:50:10 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theophile2
Diolectic - ref your post as a response to my previous post
quote:
You quoted me well, it's all good.
You have my "three basic premises" correct.
//
So, what will you do with what I've explained?
... and those Semi-Pelagian Theology (SPT) postulates derived from your comments were:
1. All humans are born in a natural state of righteousness and sinless at birth
2. All humans have the ability within themselves to choose to believe in truth, have faith in Christ, and be under God’s saving grace, instead of choosing to behave in sin.
3. Salvation is a gift from God.
Thanks for helping me to understand the basic assumptions you use when explaining scripture from a SPT view. I'm sure it helped others reading these posts as well. Although I don't really plan on doing anything with it except to take note of what your theological assumptions are. It is easier to have a conversation when one understands the other person's views. Mine, for example, comes from the Reformed Theology understanding of scripture, and were posted here.
However. While I understand the assumptions, I do not understand how they are derived (sort of, I do, I just don't understand how you derived them). I developed the theological summary based on collating your comments, but I do not know the scriptural background of your comments.
For example. When I hear someone state that "All humans are born in a natural state of righteousness and sinless at birth" and that "Each individual is under condemnation by their own fault (not because of Adam)" ... then I go to scripture and look up the following verses which tell me that all of human creation is under condemnation from the get-go ever since Adam took a bite of forbidden fruit:
Ro 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Ro 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:
Ro 5:15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous
Jn 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
Jn 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, The hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live. You must deny the interpretation which I've shown for these verse.
Therefore you leave it open to universal salvation.
quote:
So also, another example. When I hear someone state that "All humans have the ability within themselves to choose to believe in truth, have faith in Christ, and be under God's saving grace, instead of choosing to behave in sin" and “All mankind is able to obey the truth while being unrighteous” and "Deciding to believe truth is only common sense." ... I then turn to the scriptures, which tell me that it is not the sinner who does the choosing, but God: You must deny that deciding to believe truth is only common sense.
quote:
Jn 6:36 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
Jn 6:37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.
Jn 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me. You must not understand what John 6:45 is saying.
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Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life. You must deny what spiritual death really is.
Furthermore, deny that spiritual dead can still make moral decisions.
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Jn 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father. Again, you must not understand what John 6:45 is saying.
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Jn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil? Jesus only choosing the 12.
Since His Father gave them to Him, how is it that Jesus chose them?
quote:
Jn 8:37 I know that you are Abraham's seed, but you seek to kill Me because My Word has no place in you. This verse is speaking to specific people who want to kill HIM.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 4:51:15 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theophile2
Jn 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me.
Jn 8:43 Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word.
Jn 8:44 You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Jn 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.
Jn 8:46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me?
Jn 8:47 He who is of God hears God's Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God. Jesus was only talking to those who actually hate HIM. For Jesus was not who they expected & deny what HE was doing to prove that He was/is the Messiah.
quote:
Jn 9:39 And Jesus said, I have come into this world for judgment, that they who do not see might see, and that they who see might be made blind.
Jn 9:40 And those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, Are we also blind?
Jn 9:41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains. This had nothing to do with the ability to believe the truth.
quote:
Jn 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. One must remember how the Father gave people to Him.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.
God "draw by real truth which all mankind are able to know:
1: There is a God
2: He created everything
3: He has laws (Rom 1:18-20 & Rom 2:14,15)
4: We all broke them
5: We are accountable to God since He created us.
6: Jesus is real & was crucified
7: He will forgive one's sin if asked...ect...
Those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness come to Christ.
It is by the witnesses of Christ(us Christians, creation, & His word) and Spirit that men are drawn to God by the truth.
Finding ones need of salvation, he may flee his own condemnation to lay hold on the hope which the Father has set before him in the Gospel.
This shows that the Kingdom of God is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness that men are condemned.
God draws men by his love, and by showing them what his love has done for them.
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Jn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again,
Jn 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they should not see with their eyes nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walks in darkness knows not where he goes.
36 While you have light, believe in the light, that you may be the children of light. These things spoke Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Jesus is saying here that He is the light and if you cease to make due use of the opportunity of having the light shown to you, the judgment of darkness will come upon you.
quote:
Jn 15:3 Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken to you.
Eph 5:26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
Jn 17:17 Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth.
Jn 15:5 I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. Nothing here about inability to acknowledge truth and to act upon it.
quote:
Jn 15:16 You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you. This is directly to the Apostles
Again, If The Father give to Him, how is it that HE chooses?
Is it that the Father says, "here's some, which ones do you want?"
quote:
Jn 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Ro 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Ro 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified. Foreknowledge, Election and predestination is like this:
Imagine God to be as I am to my wife & my wife is as all mankind.
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations.
Another example. Imagine God to be as I am to my town & my town is as all mankind:
I invite all the people in my town to "Olive Garden", but I only make reservations for those who I know that will come.
While every one has an invitation and has equal chance to be with me and all have a choice to come or not, only those who I know will choose to come are reserved to sit at my table.
quote:
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
2Th 2:12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned. You missed 2Thes 2:10 And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Not everybody rejects he truth.
Verse 11 is the judgment of those who willfully, intentionally, volitionally, purposefully do.
quote:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, God chose to save those who will obey the call in verse 14.
quote:
2Th 2:14 to which He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And another example. That of God preserving those whom He chose. In other words, if by our choice we come and go as we please, these verses would mean nothing:
Jn 17:9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
Jn 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
Jn 17:11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Jn 17:24 Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world. These still have meaning with the fact that we willfully choose to obey the truth and come to Him as the FATHER has drawn.
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While I understand why people want to adhere to SPT, it is not something that I can square with the whole of scripture. You must think that it is God who rejects msn instead of man rejecting God.
God only reject man as He does in the final judgment.
If man is unrighteous at birth, he is not responsible.
If man can not come to the truth without God first giving the ability, the man is not responsible, but God condemning for what He did not provide.
quote:
All forms and semi-forms of Nestorian, Pelagian, Arian, Melitian, Docetic, Gnostic and myriad other alternatives have been rigorously debated and refuted with scripture, and theologically put to bed, for eons and repeatedly throughout the centuries, and documented thoroughly in councils, synods, and diets, and articulated with ample scriptural annotation through such documents as the "Book of Concord", the "Institutes of the Christian Religion", the "Westminster Large Catechism", and Hodges' "Systematic Theology." Most of the same concepts can also be found in the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers volumes.
So, yes, I understand, and again, thank you for your discourse and willingness to allow me to first seek to understand your position, but no I just can't bring myself to go against the things I see in scripture. I see that you still don't fully understand, not even the implications o your own theology.
You misinterpret many verses to hold your position.
If it is "all God & none of man", then man is not responsible for their condemnation. For they aren't even responsible for there own unrighteousness.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theophile2
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 5:22:36 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncherquote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We should start "in the beginning" explaining God's original intention for mankind.
We need restoration. We are restored through redemption and justification. We
cannot get there on our own, but only through faith and repentance are we
born again a new person with a guarantee of eternal life.
Why do you believe this ?
Is this why man was created? To worship God and have a intimate relationship with HIM.
But according to y'all, man was created to be a pawn in HIS grand game of solitaire, of which is all set in stone.
quote:
Is man the reason for everything ? Not every, but he is the reason for sin, and the rejection of God.
But according to y'all, God is the reason for sin and the reason why man rejects God.
quote:
What is the "original" intention ? To worship God and have a intimate relationship with HIM.
But according to y'all, God's "original" intention is not what HE commanded & still commands.
However according to y'all, God commands, but realy wants the opposit of His command, so He controls/sominates/causes ones heart to be hard, just so that man will do His secret will which man is condemnd for.
quote:
So, God made a mistake (oopsie !!!) Yah, you say God wanted man to sin.
Fact is, God didn't make a mistake, but man willingly made the purposeful "
mistake"
quote:
Everything is about God---not us !
We are not the "main thing" !!! IF "Everything is about God", we can not be the main thing, nor can we be we anything, but pee-ons(pawns).
quote:
We are not as important as we think. Nope, Cad was bored one "day" in eternity and thought, "Hhmmm, I guess I'll play agame by my self, with my self."
"I will create sentiant beings, some for the sole purpose of tormenting for etenity, and some I will force them to love me, because they will not be able to with out my help(because he ain't so great to begin with)."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 5:59:08 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3752
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Right FG .
Consider Manna's question : Is man the reason for everything ?
Here's Jesus' own words :The sabbath was made for man , and not man for the sabbath .
I would say that man is the reason Jesus came and died . I would say man is the reason for God's grace , and salvation . It certainly wasn't for the angels nor the demons .
Your quote of Jesus focuses on the Sabbath and man, but you then jump to a giant conclusion that man is the reason for God's plan of salvation.
That's a whole lot of man.  (And I assume is the reason that Manna included that question)
But look what Ephesians 3:6-13 says:
"6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 7Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory."
Jesus is Lord of all the universe. He came and died as part of a plan to prove that. Our salvation is but a part of his larger plan. By uniting Jew and Gentiles through offering salvation to all nations and no longer just the Jews (the historical context emphasizes what a major task that would be), Jesus displays his wisdom and power and proves that he's the King of Kings. "This was according to his eternal purpose that he realized in Christ Jesus our Lord."
quote:
It certainly wasn't for the angels nor the demons .
Certainly? Sure, God doesn't save angels and demons, but reread verse 10. In addition to saving us, Jesus also did what I wrote about above. In Ephesians 2:2, Paul calls Satan the prince of the power of the air. We also know that angels are in the heavenly places. Unless you words didn't make it to print as you intended them, your "certainly" claim directly conflicts with what this passage clearly states...
I hope the inclusion of scripture doesn't make me too rhetorical.  
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 6:16:23 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3752
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
OK. Can you explain WHY Jesus promised salvation through faith in Himself to those He described as children of the devil?
Are you talking about John 8:39-47?
quote:
Can the devil devour the elect?
No, not in the sense that the figurative language suggests (and you exaggerate).
...however I don't think that the devil ever eats anything.
quote:
Does the devil really need to prowl around looking for the non-elect?
Did you read what I wrote? I've already answered this question.
Here it is again, though, quoted in part from Post 1332:
One, Satan isn't God. He isn't omniscient. He doesn't know the details of God's plan. As such, he doesn't know who the elect and non-elect are.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 7:38:14 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
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quote:
No, actually, tdd. The Bible says the Tempter came to him. His goal was tempting Jesus, NOT devouring Him.
Do you really think that Satan thought he could "devour" Jesus? He, along with all his demon followers, KNOW that He is the Most High Son of God. Now, don't you feel silly?
Since we know that Satan isn't a literal lion, how is it that he devours people?
By tempting them. He is a liar and the father of lies.
(1 Peter 5:9) Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.
He afflicts and tempts people to leave the faith.
It makes no differenc to me what Satan thinks. All I know is that he tried and failed. We know he couldn't devour Jesus and we have the promise from Jesus that he can't devour his elect.
(Mark 13:22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
(John 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
quote:
Hardly. Just read the words of the text, tdd. Peter spoke of the devil as a "roaring lion seeking someone to DEVOUR". That is far different than just "tempting".
This is insane. Is being tempted such a small thing to you?
(James 4:6) But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
(James 4:7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
That is how Satan destroys. Either by persecution or by flattery. Either way he seeks to draw men away from serving or submitting to the true God.
That is exactly what he tried to do to Jesus and he tries to do it with us.
If you don't believe me, go back and read it for yourself.
(Matthew 4:9) And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
(Matthew 4:10) Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:02:13 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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From Post 1328:
quote:
KJB: It cant possibly be the natural man because those with
uncircumcised hearts and ears always resist....etc, etc, etc, etc.
Oh really?
Will you please explain to me why Adam was ashamed of his sin, sir?
There is not biblical evidence to suggest Adam was "enabled" to be ashamed!
And, why men began to call on the name of the Lord in Gen 4:26? There is
not biblical evidence of God inducing anyone to worship him!
And whether or not Jezebel was able to repent in Rev. 2:21? This is a
clear statement that at least one person was not willing to repent.
These are facts to deal with, not interpretation of passages, KJB.
Some people repent and others do not. I believe Romans 2:5, 8 tell us why.
You have yet to refute the mass of Scripture that says wicked men CAN repent
and wicked men are COMMANDED to repent and God DESIRES wicked men to repent
and God REJOICES when wicked men repent and God WAITS for wicked
men to repent.
None of this makes sense if God is the predeterminate cause of who will repent and when.
If man it totally unable, none of these Scriptures can make any sense either:
2 Chronicles 7:14(NIV)
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble
themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways,
then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Isaiah 55:7(NIV)
Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his
thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and
to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Jeremiah 35:15(NIV)
Again and again I sent all my servants the prophets to you.
They said, "Each of you must turn from your wicked ways and reform your
actions; do not follow other gods to serve them. Then you will live in the land
I have given to you and your fathers." But you have not paid attention or listened to me.
Ezekiel 18:23(NIV)
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD.
Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
I believe men are not totally depraved, but radically depraved
as put forth by Timothy George, one of your own.
That man is born with an internal moral witness is borne out by the
fact that man is created in God's image.
Here are a couple quotes from a book I am currently reading [1]:
"When Calvinists use the phrase total depravity, what they mean is: humans are NOT hopelessly evil but rather every aspect of our nature has been affected by the Fall, and this includes our intellectual life as well, thus every aspect needs to be redeemed." (p. 93)
"Since He made us, He must have at least the qualities we have as personal,
moral, rational human beings. "
"Failure to acknowledge God is a MORAL FAULT and calls for repentance". (p. 89, emphasis mine)
[1] Paraphrased quotes from "Total Truth" by Nancy Pearcey, published by Crossway books.)
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:03:29 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
KJB should be knighted...
NIMOM
Oh gag me............ 
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:07:32 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
I don't have the book and don't know what verses are being referred to,
but I agree with what you've quoted from Grudem. Free - I suggest you get it!
It has actually helped alot.
But they can't get around the fact that repentance is a personal decision
of the will, whether we are regenerated first or not.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:13:20 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
UMCBEE: Of course , the free will evangelist is expounding the major pillars of his theology in his message to unbelievers .
The Calvinist evangelist is keeping the major pillars of his theology hidden from the unbelievers he is evangelizing . I actually do believe this, Bee.
Almost every reformed preacher I have listened has absolutely shocked me
with their "come and receive" type invitations.
One recently said something like "If you feel the call of God on your heart right
now, you must step up and make a personal decision for Christ"!
Funny, I thought a true Calvinist salvation scene would be more like
Christ draws "Selected Stepford man" out of his damnable depravity to be saved."
Who can stop him? Does God need a little help?
Why did Paul say he would become all things to all men to save a few, Bee?
Why did Paul "reason" with the Jews in the synagogue?
Who was he trying to convince, the elect?
I don't get it!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:16:51 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is this why man was created ?
Man was created for fellowship and worship.
quote:
Is man the reason for everything ?
It was "alot about him" once upon a time, Manna.
quote:
So, God made a mistake (oopsie !!!)
He said he was sorry he ever created man, Manna?
quote:
and now He is scrambling to fix it .
No, he has a redemptive plan and unfortunately for
your theology, man must respond.
quote:
All this "image" talk has elevated the
stature of some into mini-gods.
Yeah.
Some of your buddies have already knighted KJB and
another wants to make him a king!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:19:17 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
rwe2156quote:
So this "personal decision" - how can it be so if grace is irresisitible?
When a person is revealed the irresistible Christ, a "personal decision" will be made for Christ. As quixote said, "a person's strongest desire is to choose the beautiful Christ." The strongest motive in the mind and heart will be that which a person "personally wills". When the beauty and glory of Christ is seen in the gospel a choice will be made to follow Him who provides life indeed. When Christ Jesus is seen as giving the highest pleasure and joy, then of course there will be a "personal decision" to follow Him who died and was raised from the dead that I might be made right with God and enjoy Him forever.
Blessings,
SH
Doesn't making a "personal decision" imply the person could reject?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:38:13 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Right FG .
Consider Manna's question : Is man the reason for everything ?
Here's Jesus' own words :The sabbath was made for man , and not man for the sabbath .
I would say that man is the reason Jesus came and died . I would say man is the reason for God's grace , and salvation . It certainly wasn't for the angels nor the demons .
Your quote of Jesus focuses on the Sabbath and man, but you then jump to a giant conclusion that man is the reason for God's plan of salvation.
Who receives salvation? Who is God saving?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:42:44 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
OK. Can you explain WHY Jesus promised salvation through faith in Himself to those He described as children of the devil?
Are you talking about John 8:39-47?
Yes. He promised salvation through faith in Himself to those described in v.39-47. Can you explain why, since calvinism claims that Jesus wouldn't die for them.
quote:
Here it is again, though, quoted in part from Post 1332:
One, Satan isn't God. He isn't omniscient. He doesn't know the details of God's plan. As such, he doesn't know who the elect and non-elect are.
How difficult do you think it would be for him to identify the "non-elect"? Especially since there is no way he can touch the elect. And all calvinists claim that the non-elect are slaves of him. So, how hard can that be? They are already his slaves.
Why would he have to prowl around looking for someone to devour, since all the non-elect are his slaves already?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 8:51:02 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
No, actually, tdd. The Bible says the Tempter came to him. His goal was tempting Jesus, NOT devouring Him.
Do you really think that Satan thought he could "devour" Jesus? He, along with all his demon followers, KNOW that He is the Most High Son of God. Now, don't you feel silly?
Since we know that Satan isn't a literal lion, how is it that he devours people?
Ever heard the phrase "chew them up and spit them out"? The verse is obviously figurative. The question remains: why would he have to prowl around seeking someone to devour, since he can't touch the elect, and all the non-elect are already his slaves?
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He afflicts and tempts people to leave the faith.
According to calvinist theology, it is impossible for any of the elect to defect. So, why would Satan bother trying to tempt anyone from leaving the faith. Obviously he is as smart as any calvinist and must know what they know.
So, why?
quote:
It makes no differenc to me what Satan thinks. All I know is that he tried and failed. We know he couldn't devour Jesus and we have the promise from Jesus that he can't devour his elect.
Right. So why is he described as prowling around seeking someone to devour, when the calvinist pov is that all non-elect are his slaves already?
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(Mark 13:22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
What do you think that means? Do you think it is possible for the elect to be seduced?
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quote:
Hardly. Just read the words of the text, tdd. Peter spoke of the devil as a "roaring lion seeking someone to DEVOUR". That is far different than just "tempting".
This is insane. Is being tempted such a small thing to you?
Not insane. Do you equate being devoured with being tempted? I'd much rather be tempted than be devoured. I can resist temptation but how do you resist being devoured.
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(James 4:6) But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
Right. But, doesn't calvinism claim that God's grace is given on no known basis?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 9:03:38 PM
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FreeGrace
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I was just reminded today of a passage of Scripture which I believe sheds some helpful light on the issue of faith. I have asked why Jesus chided His own disciples for lack of faith, while praising others for their great faith, instead of chiding and praising His own Father, since calvinism claims that all faith comes from God alone.
Matt 14:22-31 is the story of Jesus walking on the water after feeding 5,000. When He walks out on the water towards His disciples in a boat, Peter asks Him to tell him to come out on the water. Jesus said "come" and Peter gets out of the boat and walks on the water towards Jesus.
v.30 "But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
v.31 "Immediately Jesus reached out His hand and caught him. "You of little faith," He said, "why did you doubt"?
We see Peter with full faith and confidence in Jesus keeping him on the water and he proves his faith by getting out of the boat and walks towards Him.
But, during his journey towards Jesus, he notes the wind and "loses faith" and begins to sink. And after delivering Peter from drowning, Jesus chides him for his "little faith", and the key question: "why did you doubt?"
What is faith? Trust, confidence. What is the opposite? doubt.
Peter went from strong faith to doubt, and began to sink, and Jesus chided him for it.
In light of calvinistic theology, we must conclude that when Peter saw the wind, God snatched his faith from him, causing him to sink.
But, still, why would Jesus chide poor ol' Peter for his little faith, since God is the One who gives faith and apparently snatches it away?
I hope one of the calvinists will respond to this post with an explanation of why Jesus chided Peter instead of His own Father, why God snatched Pete's faith from him at the most inopportune time, and why Jesus asked him why Peter doubted.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 9:19:57 PM
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Odeliya
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thanks for the compliment, FG
i am very priviledged to learn here.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 9:21:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
From another of your own - Timothy George "Amazing Grace: God's Initiative/Our Response"
Speaking on depravity (p 72):
"From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible teaches that human beings
are in a mess. We are born rebels inheriting a corrupted nature
from our parents and growing up in an environment tainted by sin.
Sin is a universal deformity of human nature and it places men and
women everywhere under the certain reign of death and the
inescapable wrath of God.
But total depravity is not the best way to express this doctrinal
truth for it suggests that there is no good whatsoever in human beings,
that we are always as wicked as we might possibly be. Yet this is not true.
The image of God in fallen human beings has been horribly defaced by sin,
but it has not been totally destroyed. (emphasis mine)
Radical depravity is a better way of saying th | | |
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