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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 7:24:25 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
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quote:
Look, either God causes everything to happen or he doesn't.
Let's get real
Let's!
Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I THE LORD DO ALL THINGS.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 7:45:23 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
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quote:
Is God a micro-manager? No. Not true. He is intimate with you even from the womb. He knows the number of your hair. To even be concerned about the number of your hair really micro managing you. Doesn't he determine the number of your hair too?
He commands you to manage you. He places His Spirit in you which in a sense God indwelling in you. He changes you from the inside in order to be obedient to Him. He even gives you a new heart.
Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 7:52:52 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in ELECT-tion might stand:
One should be able to see that this election-Selection was made before they were born and before they did anything at all good or bad. The purpose was in God's election and not in people doing anything good or bad.
The issue is how one understands what "election" means. To the calvinist, it means that God unilaterally decided who He would give faith to in order for them to believe in order for Him to save them.
But, please check out the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia on "election". There is nothing on God choosing to save, as calvinism thinks.
Here's a sample: "It (election) is always related to a community, and thus has close affinity with the OT teachings upon the privileged position (my emphasis) Of Israel as the chosen, selected race. The objects of election in the NT are, in effect, the israel of God, the new regenerate race called to special privilege and special service (my emphasis).
Hereis a sample under the heading of "elect": In the KJV "elect" is used of israel as the race selected for speical favor and to be the speical vehicle of Divine purposes of the great Servant of Yahweh... In the NT it denotes a human community, also described as believers, saints, the israel of God, regarded as in somne sense selected by Him from among me, objects of His speical favor."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 8:42:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
Look, either God causes everything to happen or he doesn't.
Let's get real
Let's!
Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I THE LORD DO ALL THINGS.
balbas, do you really think these verses say that God actually causes everything that happens? Are you aware of what the Hebrew word for "evil" really means? It means trouble or calamity, NOT evil or sin.
Do you believe that when you sin, God caused it? If not, then who caused you to sin? Your view that God causes everything must include when you sin as well. That is not Biblically supported in the least.
God created everything, meaning the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. He also created the environment of freedom, whereby His creatures can express their freedom.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 8:50:12 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
Is God a micro-manager? No.
Not true. He is intimate with you even from the womb.
What He knows has zero to do with micro-managing.
quote:
He knows the number of your hair.
Again, knowing the number of my hair has zero to do with micro-managing. Knowing how many hairs I have IS related to His omniscience.
quote:
To even be concerned about the number of your hair really micro managing you.
No, it doesn't. And, where, btw, does Scripture say that he is concerned about the number of my hairs? If He really is concerned, please explain why I've been losing some of mine over the years. 
Knowing the number and being concerned about that number are also NOT related.
quote:
Doesn't he determine the number of your hair too?
Yes, but with all respect, so what? Giving us what He gives us is not related to micro-managing us. I think you need to review the word.
quote:
He commands you to manage you.
Please explain this statement. It makes no sense to me at all.
quote:
He places His Spirit in you which in a sense God indwelling in you.
What do you mean "in a sense"? God the Holy Spirit ABSOLUTELY indwells every believer.
quote:
He changes you from the inside in order to be obedient to Him. He even gives you a new heart.
How is this related to micro-managing anyone?
quote:
Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
What does this verse have to do with micro-managing anyone?
I don't think you understand what micro-managing means.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 8:59:33 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
Look, either God causes everything to happen or he doesn't.
Let's get real
Let's!
Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I THE LORD DO ALL THINGS.
balbas, do you really think these verses say that God actually causes everything that happens? Are you aware of what the Hebrew word for "evil" really means? It means trouble or calamity, NOT evil or sin.
Do you believe that when you sin, God caused it? If not, then who caused you to sin? Your view that God causes everything must include when you sin as well. That is not Biblically supported in the least.
God created everything, meaning the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. He also created the environment of freedom, whereby His creatures can express their freedom.
What is the difference between calamity and evil? Are you saying that God has relegated Himself to only natural disasters? When Job responded to his wife are you only going to say that he was talking about natural disasters? Did he not believed that all the evils that had befallen him including? Didn't that include that wind that killed his children, the boils and the attacks of the Sabeans and Chaldeans? Didn't the raiders of his land have their own wills as well and yet to Job recognized that the evil that they brought were from God.
And we read that Job did not sin accepting that God did it ALL. Meaning even the scriptures agree that God does cause these things and accepting it as a humble creature like Job, glorifying Him even, does not blaspheme God.
Job 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 9:03:14 PM
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balbas
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quote:
What He knows has zero to do with micro-managing. Well if you will read the part of scriptures that tells us how much He knows about our hair it will tell you how much He cares about us.
Are you now going to tell me what caring about us has zero connections to managing us?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 9:04:07 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
What is the difference between calamity and evil?
I would say that evil is sin, something that the Bible is very clear about. If you think God causes evil, as in sin, you have a very big problem.
From your post, it seems that you believe that God actually causes sin. Is that so?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 9:07:52 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
What He knows has zero to do with micro-managing. Well if you will read the part of scriptures that tells us how much He knows about our hair it will tell you how much He cares about us.
Please explain how knowing about how much hair one has has anything to do with caring about that one.
quote:
Are you now going to tell me what caring about us has zero connections to managing us?
Now you're changing the subject. Obviously God cares about us, but that's NOT what you started with. You started with His knowing how many hairs we have. Your comments are, with all respect, irrelevant to His care for us, not to mention any micro-managing you think He does.
Further, you still don't know what micro-managing means. Your statement here leaves off the "micro-" part. Of course God has a plan for every believer. Yes, that IS a "management" plan, if you will.
But that's a far cry from calling His plan of management "micro-managing".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 9:08:34 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1781
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FreeGrace,
quote:
The issue is how one understands what "election" means. To the calvinist, it means that God unilaterally decided who He would give faith to in order for them to believe in order for Him to save them.
The word election is pretty easy to understand really.
Merriam Websters is a pretty good place to go if a person wants to know how a word is used.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/election
2: predestination to eternal life
We also have electing which is related;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/electing
: to make a selection
The way it is being used in Romans we both know God is making a selection.
I think we both know what election and selection means.
The real issue that divides us is not election because we both know God selects people from among other people and saves them.
The division is in the following;
You feel He selects believers from the world and passes over unbelievers.
I feel that He selects individuals before they are born and have ever done anything good or bad so it has nothing to do with the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Predestine
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predestine
: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand;
Predestinate
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predestinate
: destined, fated, or determined beforehand
What exactly was destined, decreed, determined, appointed, or determined beforehand?
The selection was.
The selection (predestination to eternal life) was done beforehand.
Beforehand of what?
Before the twins were born, before they did anything at all good or bad.
That is what the text in Romans 9 is telling us.
Romans 9 being carried over from Romans 8 is giving further insight to the predestination that was spoken of in Romans 8.
Romans 9 is speaking about "children of God".
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Romans 8 just got done telling us that all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
What is Paul getting at?
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Called according to His purpose?
Romans 9;
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
It is as clear as can be.
This calling is effectual.
His choice will stand because of Him who calls. These people that are called are led by the Spirit of God.
It is an effectual calling and is according to the purpose of Him that selects.
It has everything to do with Him choosing according to His choice and has nothing to do with those twins doing anything at all. They were not even born.
If that text is not enough to clarify and satisfy the longing for truth we are given further insight.
"I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
That text knocks the "free" and the "will" out of free-will!
If you somehow feel that when God foreknew it meant that He saw all those willingly turning to faith in Jesus Christ in the future........and decided to predestine them to eternal life based on them willing....it clearly claims otherwise!
It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs no matter if you think man was willing before he was born, during birth, or sometime late in his life.....it simply does not depend on man willing or running.
quote:
But, please check out the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia on "election". There is nothing on God choosing to save, as calvinism thinks.
For a person that was always so upset and un-forgiving when I gave you links and data from the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession of Faith, you certainly never cease to amaze me with the things you do.
Nevertheless....I have looked over International Standard Bible Encyclopedia on election.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 9:10:16 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
What is the difference between calamity and evil?
I would say that evil is sin, something that the Bible is very clear about. If you think God causes evil, as in sin, you have a very big problem.
From your post, it seems that you believe that God actually causes sin. Is that so?
Really? Did I say He caused sin as opposed to Him using sin advance a purpose? I did no say he created sin. Aren't the Chaldean and the Sabeans the one who sinned but God being Sovereign is able to use according to His infinitely wise counsel? All I am saying is He causes things to happen in which He is not afraid to use sin as a cog in His purpose.
Are we in agreement?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 9:15:04 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
What He knows has zero to do with micro-managing. Well if you will read the part of scriptures that tells us how much He knows about our hair it will tell you how much He cares about us.
Please explain how knowing about how much hair one has has anything to do with caring about that one.
The bible explains itself. Try reading it sometime. It is better than just quickly posting knee jerk reactions.
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.” — Matthew 6:28-31
quote:
quote:
Are you now going to tell me what caring about us has zero connections to managing us?
Now you're changing the subject. Obviously God cares about us, but that's NOT what you started with. You started with His knowing how many hairs we have. Your comments are, with all respect, irrelevant to His care for us, not to mention any micro-managing you think He does.
Further, you still don't know what micro-managing means. Your statement here leaves off the "micro-" part. Of course God has a plan for every believer. Yes, that IS a "management" plan, if you will.
But that's a far cry from calling His plan of management "micro-managing".
O yeah I know what micromanaging is. I know it because God does provide for all that I have - life, breath, strenght, wisdom, providence.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 10:10:54 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8015
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
You want everybody to be saved and you claim that God wants everybody to be saved, so the easy thing to do is change His mind so that everybody will be saved. God can't change everybody’s mind, otherwise HE would.
I normally just lurk in here but had to address this as you've mispoken.
God can change everyone's mind, but He won't. Because doing so would run contrary to what He wants.
This whole discussion comes down to "Why did God create man and what does he really want from us" I'm not ready to discuss it fully yet but everything hinges on that.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 10:28:02 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
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quote:
God can change everyone's mind, but He won't. Because doing so would run contrary to what He wants. Correction. He does the bible disagrees.
Exodus 12:35 The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. 36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.
Ezra 7:1 After these things, during the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah, 2 the son of Shallum, the son of Zadok, the son of Ahitub, 3 the son of Amariah, the son of Azariah, the son of Meraioth, 4 the son of Zerahiah, the son of Uzzi, the son of Bukki, 5 the son of Abishua, the son of Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the chief priest- 6 this Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a teacher well versed in the Law of Moses, which the LORD, the God of Israel, had given. The king had granted him everything he asked, for the hand of the LORD his God was on him.
Act 16:13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 10:30:06 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1781
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balbas,
Here is something you will enjoy very much.
It will make free-willers cringe.
The Amazing Providence of God
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/providen.html
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 10:47:22 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8015
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
God can change everyone's mind, but He won't. Because doing so would run contrary to what He wants. Correction. He does the bible disagrees.
Exodus 12:35
Ezra 7:1
Act 16:13
Did He force them to think that way or did He convince them? Scripture appears to be silent on that point.
(returning to lurk mode)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 10:52:23 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
God can change everyone's mind, but He won't. Because doing so would run contrary to what He wants. Correction. He does the bible disagrees.
Exodus 12:35
Ezra 7:1
Act 16:13
Did He force them to think that way or did He convince them? Scripture appears to be silent on that point.
(returning to lurk mode)
Did He do something to get what He wants? The answer is yes and the bible is explicit.
Sample: Exodus 12:6 The LORD HAD MADE the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 10:58:56 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
balbas,
Here is something you will enjoy very much.
It will make free-willers cringe.
The Amazing Providence of God
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/providen.html
KJB
Whoever MP is, he did a masterful job on this piece.
Thanks KJB!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 11:10:46 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_Oquote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
You want everybody to be saved and you claim that God wants everybody to be saved, so the easy thing to do is change His mind so that everybody will be saved. God can't change everybody’s mind, otherwise HE would. I normally just lurk in here but had to address this as you've mispoken.
God can change everyone's mind, but He won't. Because doing so would run contrary to what He wants. You have God commanding people to do what He doesn't want them to do.
According to you, God commands one thing, but secretly wanting the opposite.
That is rediculous!!!
quote:
This whole discussion comes down to "Why did God create man and what does he really want from us" I'm not ready to discuss it fully yet but everything hinges on that. I'll tell you the answer.
1: Why did God create man?
To worship Him and to love Him as He loves us.
God wants a relationship with all mankind, His creation.
2: What does he really want from us?
His commandments tell us what He wants.
Mat 22:37b You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
:38 This is the first and great commandment.
:39 And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
You could probly add:
1Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 11:20:41 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
balbas,
Here is something you will enjoy very much.
It will make free-willers cringe.
The Amazing Providence of God
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/providen.html
KJB Okay, God comman ds all mankind to ot sin.
HGowever, He secretly wants sin to exist.
Go figure.
GOD:
I command these...ect...
Back of God's mind:
I will determin that all mankind disobey me.
This has God to be contradictory to Himself.
Why would God determine that which HE hates(sin)?
Why would God determine contrary to what He commands?
Why would God determine what He does not want or command what He does not want?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2008 11:26:36 PM
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balbas
Posts: 135
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
Okay, God comman ds all mankind to ot sin.
HGowever, He secretly wants sin to exist.
Go figure. Secretly? Was God secretly using murderers and liars to effectively kill Jesus to save many.
To God sin is an absolute evil. But not because it is sin we cannot say that God is not God enough to use it for His good purposes.
< Message edited by balbas -- 8/23/2008 11:46:14 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2008 12:23:21 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 795
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
Okay, God comman ds all mankind to ot sin.
However, He secretly wants sin to exist.
Go figure. Secretly? Was God secretly using murderers and liars to effectively kill Jesus to save many. No, commanding Pharaoh to let His people go, but secretly wanting him not to.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2008 1:06:27 AM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3752
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
That really bothered me (open thesim does). Since, you are new to the thread, and have not been exposed to years of propaganda, I was wondering your thoughts on this belief set.
Thanks...manna
My thoughts on open theism? It's only good in that it provides an easy answer for the problem of evil. 
Quick answer? Open Theism is an irresponsible belief set, recklessly interprets some verses while ignoring others, and disrespects God.
Long (and incomplete answer)?  We know that God is God. Absolute power is one of the reasons that He's God. The Bible tells us that all things are under the Providence of God, which means that nothing can be outside of that providence. The Open Theist denies this claiming that God issues conditional decrees. We know according to the Bible that God decrees that which he decrees according to his pleasure and will. The Bible also clearly shows us that God knows the past, present, and future. He doesn't need the counsel of man, nor is He dependent upon man's choices and actions in order to know something as truth. He doesn't depend upon contingencies. For God to issue a conditional decree, it would mean that he's ignorant of the future, that he is powerless over certain events, or that he determined nothing absolutely or with certainty about certain events. This makes God not all-knowing, not all-powerful, and a risk-taker. God is no longer God. He is Zeus.
By necessity, Open Theists must ignore verses such as Isaiah 46:10-11:
"10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it."
Open Theism demotes God to less than what he is—God. Since Open Theism puts God’s will at the mercy of outside actions and choices, it refuses to acknowledge the characteristics of God as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Ooen Theism asserts that God does not have the knowledge of the future until man acts. This is like slapping God in the face, if you ask me. God knows everything because of who he is, not because he’s dependent upon man’s actions. (It also suggests that God learns from man as the future unfolds, that God can make mistakes, and that he changes his mind based upon surprises.)
Logically following, Open Theism elevates man to a level contrary to the level presented in the Bible. When man is put in charge of determining events, God's power and majesty is diminished. Imperfect man becomes more powerful than perfect God, and God’s glory is decreased as man’s ability is applauded.
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Thank you, manna, for welcoming me with the opportunity to be lambasted by others posting in this thread. 
(btw, your username is one of my favorites on the forums. Quite clever)
Grace and peace,
Shema
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"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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