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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 12:18:29 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
I don't agree. The texts were translated into English. English requires punctuation for correct understanding. Punctuation is not an addition to God's word in the English translation.
I find it amusing that you would feel this way as your entire theology is based upon the punctuation being changed in this verse. Without the comma being moved to after the word "today", your whole theology falls apart. You cannot then justify your misinterpretation of other scripture to prove your theology. Whereas, whether or not you move the comma, our theology remains the same based on our interpretation of the remainder of scripture.
And the translators had to make a judgment call as to where to place that comma didn't they? The translator's personal doctrine will greatly determine where they will decide to place that comma....won't it?
In these situations, we need to let Scripture determine the meaning of Scripture. And in this point I believe you have failed to take into consideration Scripture as a whole.
Did Jesus enter into Paradise that very day? If you believe He did...where is Paradise?
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/13/2008 12:31:20 PM >
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 1:48:55 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
There were times in the Old Testament that the dead were brought to life and there were times that, at Jesus command, there were those who were brought to life. Consequently, we are shown that God will bring the dead to life, to physical life, at ANY time to fulfill a purpose. With this evidence, we can be assured that Moses and Elijah could have been brought out of their “sleep” to appear in their physical form during the transfiguration of Jesus.
But none-the-less...remember that in the book of Matthew, Jesus describes the event as a vision.
i guess i missed the verse where Jesus calls this a vision, can you give me that?
as to whether or not moses and elijah could have been brought out of their sleep, from the passage we read that peter wanted to make tabernacles for the three. at least for peter this was a physical reality and i can find nothing in the passage to indicate otherwise, can you?
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 1:52:16 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Did Jesus enter into Paradise that very day?
Yes...He said He would, so I would believe Him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
If you believe He did...where is Paradise?
We don't have to know the answer to the question to believe He did.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 2:33:02 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
i guess i missed the verse where Jesus calls this a vision, can you give me that?
Matthew 17:9
quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
as to whether or not moses and elijah could have been brought out of their sleep, from the passage we read that peter wanted to make tabernacles for the three. at least for peter this was a physical reality and i can find nothing in the passage to indicate otherwise, can you?
I don't believe Peter wanted to build structures to shelter the three.
Tabernacles (or booths) are an important part of God's Holy Festival called the Feast of Tabernacles/booths. Basically, the spiritual meaning behind the Feast of Booths is the inauguration or the ushering in of the Messianic reign.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 2:50:57 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
ORIGINAL: john_mark
i guess i missed the verse where Jesus calls this a vision, can you give me that?
Matthew 17:9
i missed that by using NIV instead of another version
quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
as to whether or not moses and elijah could have been brought out of their sleep, from the passage we read that peter wanted to make tabernacles for the three. at least for peter this was a physical reality and i can find nothing in the passage to indicate otherwise, can you?
I don't believe Peter wanted to build structures to shelter the three.
Tabernacles (or booths) are an important part of God's Holy Festival called the Feast of Tabernacles/booths. Basically, the spiritual meaning behind the Feast of Booths is the inauguration or the ushering in of the Messianic reign.
peter says this
4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
in the passage peter seems to want to make three tabernacles, the passage seems clear about that. if peter wants to make a physical structure it must be to house a physical reality, not a spiritualized understanding of the feast of tabernacles.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 2:57:51 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Tabernacles (or booths) are an important part of God's Holy Festival called the Feast of Tabernacles/booths. Basically, the spiritual meaning behind the Feast of Booths is the inauguration or the ushering in of the Messianic reign.
I don't think Peter was, at that point, quite to that level of understanding.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 3:04:13 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
i guess i missed the verse where Jesus calls this a vision, can you give me that?
Matthew 17:9
My copy of Vine's tells me the word translated "vision" means "that which is seen; denotes a spectacle, sight." The same word is used in Acts 7:31.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 3:06:03 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
If you believe He did...where is Paradise?
We don't have to know the answer to the question to believe He did.
Remember what Messiah said on the cross? "Father, into thy hands I commend my Spirit". Taking into account that the word "spirit" is derived from the same word as "breath", or the life-force of man which is given by the Father. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
Where does this spirit/breath/life force go after death? "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (breath) shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
After Jesus died, did He return to the Father as a spirit being, or was it the breath/life force that returned to the Father?
I believe that the life force of Jesus returned to the Father. Jesus as a spirit being could not have returned to the Father on the day Jesus died, because after the resurrection (three days later) Jesus told Mary: "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father..."
Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, whom is in heaven. Meaning, Jesus was not in paradise/heaven on the day He died. Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights until He was resurrected by the Father.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/13/2008 7:26:22 PM >
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 3:13:32 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
peter says this
4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
in the passage peter seems to want to make three tabernacles, the passage seems clear about that. if peter wants to make a physical structure it must be to house a physical reality, not a spiritualized understanding of the feast of tabernacles.
That just brings us back to what I said earlier:
"There were times in the Old Testament that the dead were brought to life and there were times that, at Jesus command, there were those who were brought to life. Consequently, we are shown that God will bring the dead to life, to physical life, at ANY time to fulfill a purpose. With this evidence, we can be assured that Moses and Elijah could have been brought out of their “sleep” to appear in their physical form during the transfiguration of Jesus.
But none-the-less...remember that in the book of Matthew, Jesus describes the event as a vision. "
A vision or a physical reality really doesn't change anything we are talking about here.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 3:24:21 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
Where does this spirit/breath/life force go after death? "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (breath) shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
After Jesus died, did He return to the father as a spirit being, or was it the breath/life force that returned to the Father?
His spirit went to Paradise, which was and is the providence of God's saints. That does not equate to: He went to heaven.
quote:
I believe that the life force of Jesus returned to the Father. Jesus as a spirit being could not have returned to the Father on the day Jesus died, because after the resurrection (three days later) Jesus told Mary: "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father..."
Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, whom is in heaven.
True, He had not gone to heaven yet. He went to Sheol. When He ascended, Paradise was taken to the third heaven.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 5:06:46 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
His spirit went to Paradise, which was and is the providence of God's saints. That does not equate to: He went to heaven.
Okay, now we are getting somewhere. According to Scripture, where is Paradise located?
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
True, He had not gone to heaven yet. He went to Sheol.
Sheol means "the grave".
For example: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1Co 15:55)
"Grave" in the above verse is translated from the Greek word "hades", which is the equivalent of the word "sheol" in the Hebrew language. Hades and Sheol are identical. Where the Masoretic Text (MT) reads "sheol" in Hebrew, the equivalent word in the Septuagint (LXX) is "hades" in the Greek language.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
When He ascended, Paradise was taken to the third heaven.
Can you show me this from Scripture?
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Abishua,
That was one of the questions I asked you concerning II Corinthians. I was not asking about Paul because that is irrelevant to the discussion. The verses specifically say that Paradise is now in the third heaven. Who is in Paradise?
Actually, in 2Cor12, Paul does not say that Paradise is now in the third heaven (as if it was once located someplace else). Paul merely equates paradise and the third heaven as being one and the same place.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/13/2008 7:53:53 PM >
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