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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 4:00:48 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Actually, the phrase "I say unto you this day" (or "...today") is a common Hebrew idiom which is used for solemn emphasis. It would not have been that unusual for Jesus to have said, "Truly I say to you today..." Another example from Scripture: 'I declare to you this day, that ye shall surely perish' (Deut. 30:18).
Your argument might be plausible if Jesus spoke those words in Deut. or even spoke Hebrew as His common tongue; however, He did not. Jesus spoke Aramaic. Therefore, it would have been unusual for Jesus to have used a "common Hebrew idiom" at such a time as opposed to using the common language for which He was known to speak -- and which the thief would have understood -- especially given the emphasis it had to the person and at the time at which it was spoken.
quote:
As an interesting side note, the thief died on a different day than Jesus did.
This is pure speculation. There is no scripture to back up this assertion. John 19:31-33 is clear that their legs were broken to expedite their deaths -- as was common practice -- so they could be taken down from the cross before the Sabbath day.
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Your problem is not with me, and whether or not I am a JW....It makes little difference. Your problem is with reconciling Scripture.
No, my problem is with the preaching another Gospel -- JW, SDA, WOF, etc.
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I have many different bible translations/versions and I would guess that at least 1/3 of them have the comma placed after the word "today".
I have many different translations/versions also; I just checked 12 of them and NONE of them have the comma after "today". So, your point is ... ???
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 4:45:33 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
quote:
As an interesting side note, the thief died on a different day than Jesus did.
This is pure speculation. There is no scripture to back up this assertion. John 19:31-33 is clear that their legs were broken to expedite their deaths -- as was common practice -- so they could be taken down from the cross before the Sabbath day.
True. The narrative is very clear that their legs were broken so that they could be taken down dead before sundown.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 5:39:16 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
As an interesting side note, the thief died on a different day than Jesus did.
What??? My head is spinning! Where did you find this?
And this...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Man was created as a living soul. God created man from the dust of the ground and then breathed the breath of life into him. When a person dies, they return to the dust from which they were formed; the breath returns to God who gave it.
Any scripture, at all, to back up either of these?
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 6:17:32 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Any scripture, at all, to back up either of these?
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." (Job 33:4)
When we die, we loose the breath and the dust decays into the ground.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
Notice that we now have the dust returning to the ground, this makes sense. But we now have the spirit returning to God. This almost sounds like our soul is returning to God. But if we look at the Hebrew word "ruach" we find it can mean spirit, wind, breath, or even mind.
Now we can see that the same two parts (dust and the breath of life) come apart when we die. Except now we see that the breath of life can also be called "the spirit".
"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." (Psalms 104:29)
The same Hebrew word "ruach", that is translated as "breath" in Psalms 104:29 is translated as "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 12:7. So, in Psalms 104:29, we see that God takes away the breath when people die. The body itself returns to dust.
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Genesis 3:19)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 6:40:22 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
.....It seems the didactic portions of scripture give the impression that there is an intermediate state of the spirit between death and resurrection.
I don't see it....neither of those verses speak of an intermediate state of the spirit between death and the resurrection. You would have to read that into those verses in order to come up with that conclusion.
Here's another one from the OT: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)
Here's a good one: "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
"Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."
"For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:19-21)
So even Isaiah has talked about the dead arising again. Verse 20 seems to say to the righteous, rest a little while, enter thou into thy chambers (grave), and shut thy doors about thee and hide yourself as it were for a little moment until all this trouble is ended. This could be describing the purpose for death. It allows the righteous to sleep while trouble covers the Earth. After that: Behold, the LORD cometh out of his place. . .
Here's one from Hosea: "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." (Hosea 13:14)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 6:44:47 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." (Job 33:4)
When we die, we loose the breath and the dust decays into the ground.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
Notice that we now have the dust returning to the ground, this makes sense. But we now have the spirit returning to God. This almost sounds like our soul is returning to God. But if we look at the Hebrew word "ruach" we find it can mean spirit, wind, breath, or even mind.
Now we can see that the same two parts (dust and the breath of life) come apart when we die. Except now we see that the breath of life can also be called "the spirit".
"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." (Psalms 104:29)
The same Hebrew word "ruach", that is translated as "breath" in Psalms 104:29 is translated as "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 12:7. So, in Psalms 104:29, we see that God takes away the breath when people die. The body itself returns to dust.
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Genesis 3:19)
can i ask how this would explain moses and elijah appearing in recognizable form to both Jesus and His disciples.
matt 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 7:28:03 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
....Every one is poetry, not didactic teaching....
Let's be honest...the book of Ecclesiastes is one of the greatest didactic books in the Bible, filled to the brim with wisdom. If you want to throw the book of Ecclesiastes out because you feel that it is too poetic to offer anything else of value....then you would be forced to throw out the book of Psalms as well....as it is written in a similiar fashion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
......They can no more be proof of the intermediate state of the spirit than Psalm 57 proves that God has wings (v. 1) or that David was surrounded by fire-breathing lions (v.4).
Doug...please...surely you realize that you are comparing apples to oranges with this statement.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 8:13:48 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
can i ask how this would explain moses and elijah appearing in recognizable form to both Jesus and His disciples.
matt 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
There were times in the Old Testament that the dead were brought to life and there were times that, at Jesus command, there were those who were brought to life. Consequently, we are shown that God will bring the dead to life, to physical life, at ANY time to fulfill a purpose. With this evidence, we can be assured that Moses and Elijah could have been brought out of their “sleep” to appear in their physical form during the transfiguration of Jesus.
But none-the-less...remember that in the book of Matthew, Jesus describes the event as a vision.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/12/2008 8:34:02 PM >
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/12/2008 8:40:39 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Actually, the phrase "I say unto you this day" (or "...today") is a common Hebrew idiom which is used for solemn emphasis. It would not have been that unusual for Jesus to have said, "Truly I say to you today..." Another example from Scripture: 'I declare to you this day, that ye shall surely perish' (Deut. 30:18).
Your argument might be plausible if Jesus spoke those words in Deut. or even spoke Hebrew as His common tongue; however, He did not. Jesus spoke Aramaic. Therefore, it would have been unusual for Jesus to have used a "common Hebrew idiom" at such a time as opposed to using the common language for which He was known to speak -- and which the thief would have understood -- especially given the emphasis it had to the person and at the time at which it was spoken.
"This emphatic use of 'today' is a common idiom in both Hebrew and Aramaic which are the two Semitic languages in which the Old Testament was written. The idiom is used to introduce a solemn statement. 'I ... to you today' when the verb is one of declaration, testification, command or oath. Some seventy occurrences of this formula are found in the Bible and forty-two are found in the Book of Deuteronomy (for example, Deut. 4:26)" (A. W. Fowler, "Jesus' Promise to the Dying Thief," an article in Resurrection Magazine, Autumn 1991).
"The earliest translation of the Greek New Testament was into the language of Palestine's nearest neighbour, Syria. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic. It is therefore not surprising that in one of the oldest Syriac manuscripts of the Gospels (5th century Curetonianus) the translator recognized the idiom and translated the passage, 'Amen say I to you today that with me you will be in the garden of Eden.' By introducing the word 'that' the translator removed the need for any punctuation to determine the sense. We therefore have a very ancient precedent for our interpretation which ante-dates all the English versions by hundreds of years" (ibid).
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
I have many different translations/versions also; I just checked 12 of them and NONE of them have the comma after "today". So, your point is ... ???
Simple....any punctuation is an addition to the text.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/12/2008 9:13:02 PM >
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 9:31:28 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I don't mean to be a bother to anyone, but I really would like to know how Sheol can exist prior to an awakening if soul sleep is correct doctrine. Any explanations?
Well...I guess it wouldn't exist, then would it? Must be just another one of those "contradictions". 
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:01:35 AM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I don't mean to be a bother to anyone, but I really would like to know how Sheol can exist prior to an awakening if soul sleep is correct doctrine. Any explanations?
Without going into a lengthy dissertation, Hades is the Greek word often rendered as "hell" in the New Testament, and sheol is the corresponding Hebrew word used in the Old Testament. Both words simply mean "the grave".
Also, I would not call it "soul sleep". Scripture makes it clear...when our physical bodies die, we cease to exist. Jesus and others simply described death in terms of sleep because of its temporary nature, due to the promised resurrection.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/13/2008 11:12:35 AM >
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:03:20 AM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
.....It seems the didactic portions of scripture give the impression that there is an intermediate state of the spirit between death and resurrection.
I don't see it....neither of those verses speak of an intermediate state of the spirit between death and the resurrection. You would have to read that into those verses in order to come up with that conclusion.
They speak of the spirit being aware yet separate from the body.
quote:
Here's another one from the OT: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)
Here's a good one: "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
"Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."
"For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." (Isaiah 26:19-21)
So even Isaiah has talked about the dead arising again. Verse 20 seems to say to the righteous, rest a little while, enter thou into thy chambers (grave), and shut thy doors about thee and hide yourself as it were for a little moment until all this trouble is ended. This could be describing the purpose for death. It allows the righteous to sleep while trouble covers the Earth. After that: Behold, the LORD cometh out of his place. . .
Here's one from Hosea: "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." (Hosea 13:14)
We agree that there will be a resurrection. That is not the issue. Not one of these verses says that the spirit is unaware or unconscious after the body's death.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:18:35 AM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I don't mean to be a bother to anyone, but I really would like to know how Sheol can exist prior to an awakening if soul sleep is correct doctrine. Any explanations?
Without going into a lengthy dissertation, Hades is the Greek word often rendered as "hell" in the New Testament, and sheol is the corresponding Hebrew word used in the Old Testament. Both words simply mean "the grave".
Also, I would not call it "soul sleep". Scripture makes it clear...when our physical bodies die, we cease to exist. Jesus and others simply described death in terms of sleep because of its temporary nature, due to the promised resurrection.
Scripture also makes it clear that the souls in Sheol/Hades are aware. Was Sheol not divided? If not, then the parable was pretty wrong. Where is Abraham's Bosom/Paradise now?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:20:13 AM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
They speak of the spirit being aware yet separate from the body.
I have shown you Scripture that proves otherwise.
Doug, do you believe animals have a spirit?
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
We agree that there will be a resurrection. That is not the issue. Not one of these verses says that the spirit is unaware or unconscious after the body's death.
If a man lives on after the death of his physical body, then there is no need of a resurrection is there?
All this really teaches is that man is immortal, and Scripture states only God is immortal. God can give this (immortality) to us, but it is not an inherent part of man.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:24:51 AM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Scripture also makes it clear that the souls in Sheol/Hades are aware. Was Sheol not divided? If not, then the parable was pretty wrong. Where is Abraham's Bosom/Paradise now?
This was not a literal story. It was a parable.
If it were a literal story, it is then filled with contradictions. This parable has nothing to do with heaven/hell, paradise/hades. A person could write a book on the true meaning of this parable. Again, the PARABLE of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing...nada...zippo to do with hades/paradise.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:31:42 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2399
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
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I would disagree.
Jesus' parables were relevant to the people at the time, and would have fallen into their understanding of things.
As he preached this parable, I am sure it was right in line with the traditional Jewish understanding of life after death, and they understood that, which enabled them to not get caught up on some aspect that Christ would completely have made up for the sake of telling a story, and they would have received the fuller meaning of the message, beyond the after-death speak.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:43:31 AM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
....Every one is poetry, not didactic teaching....
Let's be honest...the book of Ecclesiastes is one of the greatest didactic books in the Bible, filled to the brim with wisdom. If you want to throw the book of Ecclesiastes out because you feel that it is too poetic to offer anything else of value....then you would be forced to throw out the book of Psalms as well....as it is written in a similar fashion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
......They can no more be proof of the intermediate state of the spirit than Psalm 57 proves that God has wings (v. 1) or that David was surrounded by fire-breathing lions (v.4).
Doug...please...surely you realize that you are comparing apples to oranges with this statement.
It is certainly filled with wisdom, but is still poetry. Ecclesiastes is always listed as poetry. Nobody is throwing anything out because it is poetry, but it is written in poetic language and must be read as such. It expresses life as viewed from the human side, expressing how everything repeats in meaningless cycles, until you add God to the picture.
And no, I'm not comparing apples to oranges, but poetry to poetry.
I invited you to share scripture supporting your idea. I have only explained why I do not see these verses supporting your idea. The invitation is still open, but I suggest you look for something among the teaching of the law, history, epistles or gospels that say that the spirit, not the body, is unaware or unconscious or ceases to exist or something like that.
Please understand that I'm not hostile to the idea. I'm just asking for explanation and support.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 11:50:11 AM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Scripture also makes it clear that the souls in Sheol/Hades are aware. Was Sheol not divided? If not, then the parable was pretty wrong. Where is Abraham's Bosom/Paradise now?
This was not a literal story. It was a parable.
If it were a literal story, it is then filled with contradictions. This parable has nothing to do with heaven/hell, paradise/hades. A person could write a book on the true meaning of this parable. Again, the PARABLE of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing...nada...zippo to do with hades/paradise.
I would not say "nada...zippo", but Abishua is in agreement with most scholars on this issue. This parable was an illustration about how stubborn the religious folk were and was not a teaching on the nature of Heaven, Hell, Paradise, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, etc.
On the other hand, if there is any truth about the afterlife in this parable, and it was important for us to know, Jesus would have pointed it out. What He did point out in other talks that agrees with this parable is that the unsaved dead are miserable and very conscious.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 12:04:32 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I would not say "nada...zippo", but Abishua is in agreement with most scholars on this issue. This parable was an illustration about how stubborn the religious folk were and was not a teaching on the nature of Heaven, Hell, Paradise, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, etc.
On the other hand, if there is any truth about the afterlife in this parable, and it was important for us to know, Jesus would have pointed it out. What He did point out in other talks that agrees with this parable is that the unsaved dead are miserable and very conscious.
Okay...Let's go at this from another angle.
I believe man is wholistic in nature, meaning there is nothing about man than can exist outside of his body. When the body dies, the whole man dies.
There are those who hold to a dualistic nature. Meaning man has a body and is given a soul. The soul having the capability of living outside of a dead body.
Then there are those who believe in a trialistic (sp?) nature, where man is made up of a body, is given a soul, and a spirit. I am not sure what these folks believe lives on after the death of the body though...
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 12:05:55 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
"This emphatic use of 'today' is a common idiom in both Hebrew and Aramaic which are the two Semitic languages in which the Old Testament was written. The idiom is used to introduce a solemn statement. 'I ... to you today' when the verb is one of declaration, testification, command or oath. Some seventy occurrences of this formula are found in the Bible and forty-two are found in the Book of Deuteronomy (for example, Deut. 4:26)" (A. W. Fowler, "Jesus' Promise to the Dying Thief," an article in Resurrection Magazine, Autumn 1991).
Besides the fact that I don't know who A.W. Fowler or Al Maxey are, except that Maxey is an elder in The Church of Christ -- which is enough for me to disregard his opinion, the discussion of the OT is irrelevant.
In addition, research would show that a minimal amount of the earliest OT manuscripts were written in Aramaic -- Deuteronomy NOT being included in that small portion of Aramaic writing -- so offering this opinion in the hope of proving the NT "idiom" is correctly based on the OT idiom is pointless.
Regardless, we are dealing with the NT. In the NT, the idiom "amen lego ..." (Verily I say ...) is used over 70 times and the only instance that adds the word "today" is Luke 23:43. This fact, among other things, leads to the conclusion that the placement of the comma before "today" is accurate.
quote:
"The earliest translation of the Greek New Testament was into the language of Palestine's nearest neighbour, Syria. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic. It is therefore not surprising that in one of the oldest Syriac manuscripts of the Gospels (5th century Curetonianus) the translator recognized the idiom and translated the passage, 'Amen say I to you today that with me you will be in the garden of Eden.' By introducing the word 'that' the translator removed the need for any punctuation to determine the sense. We therefore have a very ancient precedent for our interpretation which ante-dates all the English versions by hundreds of years" (ibid).
The Curetonianus Codex does not even contain the complete text of the synoptic gospels. In addition, your source admits it "introduces" words to change the reading of the text based on his recognition of what he believed to be an OT idiom. Not a reliable source, IMO.
quote:
....any punctuation is an addition to the text.
I don't agree. The texts were translated into English. English requires punctuation for correct understanding. Punctuation is not an addition to God's word in the English translation.
I find it amusing that you would feel this way as your entire theology is based upon the punctuation being changed in this verse. Without the comma being moved to after the word "today", your whole theology falls apart. You cannot then justify your misinterpretation of other scripture to prove your theology. Whereas, whether or not you move the comma, our theology remains the same based on our interpretation of the remainder of scripture.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 12:08:41 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
OK. Forget the parable. Go to II Corinthians 12, and tell me where Paradise is and who is in it.
Paul was describing his own experience, because he spoke in context of his own revelations or dreams.
Paul was concerned that no one should think he was glorying or boasting about his visions. For this reason, he ascribed the experience to a man he knew.
Paul's soul did not leave his body, in spite of claims to the contrary. He was not puzzled over whether he had died or not. He was merely uncertain as to whether he dreamt it or if he went there in person, in real life.
Although it seemed that he was bodily taken to heaven, yet he felt it possible that he was taken there only in a dream or vision. He confessed to complete ignorance as to what actually happened.
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RE: Where was Jesus for three days? - 8/13/2008 12:12:57 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
... the discussion of the OT is irrelevant.
It is a mistake to exclude the OT. That is man's division, not God's. OT references must be examined.
quote:
I find it amusing that you would feel this way as your entire theology is based upon the punctuation being changed in this verse.
This unfair. We are not talking about anybody's "entire theology", but a relatively minor point which does not affect our salvation one wa | | |
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