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joy2give2u -> Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 3:23:34 PM)

Joy you've said to me, "Oh Lord, You are so beautiful!" yet, you've never seen me!!

I see you Lord.

I see you in a sky painted with red, pinks and purples.

I see you in the early morning mist dancing across the lake

And in the dew caressing gently a field of corn as the sun begins to make her appearance.

Lord I see how beautiful you are in a child's laughter or the wise eyes of an elder.

In the wildflowers skipping in the wind

Or the moon reflecting the sun's glory

I see you Lord.

Do you Joy?

If God manifested Himself as an old,wrinkled,dirty,hairy,scarred, fat old man would I still see His beauty?

Would I still be able to say to Him, "Lord, you are so beautiful"?

Is the only reason I am capable of seeing God as beautiful because I chose to see him only in those things I see as beautiful?

Do I see beauty in a land fill? A swamp full of junk tossed out by those who no longer see it's value? A broken down rusty car abandoned along the road or a house so neglected it still stands only from the support of the weeds and vines which have covered her once proud face?

Yet, you've never seen me!

I want to proclaim it is an untruth.........no matter how God chose to reveal Himself physically....I would still see Him as beautiful as I do having never seen Him.... but I know it would be a lie. I know that how he looked in the physical world would dictate how I saw Him and this thought makes me very sad.

I love the Lord more then I can express and find Him more beautiful then anything or one I have ever encountered.......His beauty takes my breath away yet I know if his physical appearance did not meet my standard of beauty how I saw Him would change slightly. What an humbling thought.

As a single woman I wonder........do I really see others, in particular men, by not seeing them? Do I only look for God in those my soul find as beautiful? Have I ever opened myself to seeing God's beauty by choosing not to see through physical eyes?

If I proclaim Lord, you are so beautiful and he lives in others ,should I not see them as beautiful as I see Him without seeing Him physically?

I wonder can anyone, who proclaims Oh Lord you are so beautiful, honestly say they have seen Him as beautiful in a person, place or thing which physically they do not find beautiful?

If God is the beholder of our hearts is how we see others, especially when it comes to our desires for a husband/wife, in the eye of the beholder or is it really in the eyes of the beheld?



AlwaysR8chel -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 3:54:42 PM)

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.... I am reading In the Grip of Grace by Max Lucado....


It seems these (oh wait can I post in here?) thoughts have much to do with grace... being rooted in the grace that the LORD gives us allows us to accept and love others as they are....

... to be able to look past our expectations of others.


I know this isn't probably the line of discussion you were looking for... but it's what came to my mind...



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:05:57 PM)

quote:

allows us to accept and love others as they are...
Interesting statement Rach..........allows us to accept? Accept what? Accept a person or thing that is not beautiful? I agree with can accept and love others because of God's grace and love for us.......but is accepting them as they are the same as seeing them as beautiful?

In my example of God manifesting as an old,fat, wrinkly,scarred old man is accepting Him as he is the same as seeing Him as beautiful despite how he looks?

Would His physical appearance being less beautiful take away from how beautiful I see Him not seeing him?

Are we suppose to see people as they are or as Christ is?



hotsaucygma -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:12:05 PM)

I hate to say it, but I am sure I too may not "see" God as beautiful in that landfill or dirty, scared old man. We do all gravitate to things we see as beautiful, and shy away from things we find "ugly" or scary. I believe it is possible to have a "beauty and the beast" thing happen though, where what we find even repulsive at first can change into "beauty" when we "see" a truly beautiful "inside".

Have you ever heard the story of "A Man Called Norman"? How Norman was the smelly, scary kind of guy that little kids in the neighborhood were afraid of, and adults too! He was Mentally Ill, I believe. Anyway it's the story about a Christian moving in next door to Norman and fighting with God about befriending Norman... and how his family comes to help and love Norman. It is a true story.

We may miss out on many things, because we do not see them as worthwhile, beautiful or worthy...

I don't want to miss out on God just He doesn't look like I expect! I don't want to have blinders on and miss God because I'm not looking!



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:19:59 PM)

Me either hsgma.

My prayer this week has been Lord let me not see so that I can see.

I think I will look up the book " A Man Called Norman" this weekend. Sounds like something I want to read.

I am reading "The Shack" and a major theme is seeing the beauty in truth over our own preconceived idea of beauty based on our own reality.



hotsaucygma -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:23:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

Me either hsgma.

My prayer this week has been Lord let me not see so that I can see.
Now that sounds so much like Joy... lol.

A good prayer though. To see what is inside, not what is temporary.



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:42:29 PM)

quote:

Now that sounds so much like Joy... lol.
Joy as in that which comes from the Holy Spirit or Joy as in me?



hotsaucygma -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:43:42 PM)

LOL, both... but I did mean you.



hotsaucygma -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:47:40 PM)

You know, I was just looking at your avatar Joy. It is truly beautiful and it did make me think of God and the beauty he provides for us each day in the Sunrise/Sunset, the blue sky, lakes, trees... nature in general. And it is easy to see the beauty there. Then I thought of your comments about not seeing it in landfills etc. - but landfills are not God's creation, they are man's. No wonder there is no beauty in them! And age, scars and all that... they are man's doing as well, the choices made in the Garden!

Hmmm, as usual you give me much to think about!



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:48:52 PM)

I am sitting here trying to decide how to respond........when I realized a thank you would say it all...........[:D][:D]



AlwaysR8chel -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:52:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

Accept what? Accept a person or thing that is not beautiful?

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..... it is common for us, as human beings, to place our expectations on others. So... yes... accept is the correct word....


Accept someone as they are... accept that people don't meet our expectations... accept that we are no better than the homeless guy who lost his blanket in a fight under the bridge....


I think accepting someone as they are is seeing the beauty in them.... because it causes us to set ourselves aside... and just live in the moment....


Today, a friend sent me an email of an update on a prison ministry outreach in Cook County Jail in Chicago... there were pictures of volunteers sitting on the floor with the inmates sharing Christ... I just wanted to cry.... because I'm missing out on being there with those beautiful people....


I think being able to see true beauty is something that comes from a heart which has been revived by Christ.....


I also think that we as humans.... are distracted by the outsides.... [;)] It is my continual practice to do my best to see people as Christ does.... we are all unfinished products...... we will only be finished when we all get to heaven... [:D]


The Man Called Norman was a broadcast on Focus on the Family.... it was a wonderful broadcast... let me see if there is a link or something.... Okay....



It's worth listening to the entire thing..... my life was changed because of it....


Good post, HnS! ;o)



hotsaucygma -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:53:10 PM)

Well then, you are welcome. [:D]



Focusing -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:55:39 PM)

It is a very beautiful avatar!

Beauty in the eye of the beholder ... yes, I agree it is. I also would agree that beauty is in the eye of God.

Most people would look outside at the dark and cloudy skies, complain and grumble that it's going to rain. Me, I'm excited and declare how beautiful it is! Is this part of the country, we are so used to blue skies and intense sunshine, it's really great to have a break and see something different. And the clouds are always changing, always creating a new scene. All we need to do is look. They signify that rain is going to be hitting the ground somewhere in this desert valley, which will refresh the landscape and make things green and lush. It will wash away a lot of the dust and muck that has collected since the last rainstorm. It will clean the air. This is a valley, and the air can get pretty stagnant and, well, icky. So, tell me, what's not to love about the beauty of the dark and cloudy skies?

Hmm ... come to think of it, I have some pictures I took last night of the clouds and sky at sunset that need to get downloaded onto my computer and shared. [:D] The contrast of the dark rain clouds and the puffy white clouds and the blue sky and the sun setting. Just beautiful! Perhaps I will have a new avatar soon myself.



hotsaucygma -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 4:57:46 PM)

Yeah Rach, I first heard the Man Called Norman on Focus on the Family, I got the book after that - it was one I read to the kids. We used to go camping almost every weekend and we would bring along a book and read one or two chapters a night while sitting around the campfire. A Man Called Norman was one of them.

Ya know, sometimes I just don't want to be challanged to go out of my comfort zone... that book/story was one of the ones that challanged me. Sometimes I still just don't want to be challanged! [8|]



AlwaysR8chel -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 5:02:01 PM)

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.... oh! I didn't know it was a book too!!!

How very cool.....



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 5:04:03 PM)

quote:

Then I thought of your comments about not seeing it in landfills etc. - but landfills are not God's creation, they are man's. No wonder there is no beauty in them! And age, scars and all that... they are man's doing as well, the choices made in the Garden!
Yet aren't the scars upon the hands of Jesus......the marks on His back........aren't they also from man? Still do we not find them beautiful? Doesn't His actions at the cross free us from the curse of the fall?

I also have to wonder. Doesn't God take everything which is ugly,shine his light and transform it? He does in those things we don't see such as circumstances. God often takes the ugliest of circumstances and through transformation yields more beauty then we could have imagined.

Is it possible if we expected God to do the same in people, places and things, which we find non beautiful, we would discover that all things, through the Lord, are beautiful?

Is it possible when seen by not seeing we actually see based on the cross and not the curse?



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 5:07:48 PM)

quote:

We used to go camping almost every weekend and we would bring along a book and read one or two chapters a night while sitting around the campfire. A Man Called Norman was one of them.
Camping every weekend and reading a book by the campfire........man why did you have to be female..........I would so crush on you if you weren't.



hotsaucygma -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 5:18:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

quote:

Then I thought of your comments about not seeing it in landfills etc. - but landfills are not God's creation, they are man's. No wonder there is no beauty in them! And age, scars and all that... they are man's doing as well, the choices made in the Garden!
Yet aren't the scars upon the hands of Jesus......the marks on His back........aren't they also from man? Still do we not find them beautiful? Doesn't His actions at the cross free us from the curse of the fall?
Does His actions free everyone from the curse, or just those that accept his actions/gift? The scars are from man, but were also part of God's plan, hmmm, I'm really still working on this one... I have to think lots more about it!
quote:


I also have to wonder. Doesn't God take everything which is ugly,shine his light and transform it?
Does He? Are there things he does not transform? There is still sin and evil in the world... hmmm.
quote:

He does in those things we don't see such as circumstances. God often takes the ugliest of circumstances and through transformation yields more beauty then we could have imagined.
Very true! But again, always? Or just that he works all things together for good for those that love Him? I believe He wants to transform circumstances for all, but there's that pesky free will thing goin' on, ya know? How does that fit in... hmmm.
quote:


Is it possible if we expected God to do the same in people, places and things, which we find non beautiful, we would discover that all things, through the Lord, are beautiful?

Is it possible when seen by not seeing we actually see based on the cross and not the curse?
Again, I need to think more about this... lots of "ideas" swirling around right now...

LOL, like I said Joy, you always make me think!



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/8/2008 5:49:07 PM)

quote:

Does His actions free everyone from the curse, or just those that accept his actions/gift?
I guess it depends. Is the curse on individual man or on man kind? If it is on mankind as a whole and it was broken wouldn't it then be broken for all? Was it broken at the cross or is it broken when we accept His gift?

What is the curse? Separation from the Lord? No longer walking three as one? What keeps us from walking as one with the Lord? Is it the Lord who keeps us or the deceit of satan?

When you buy a wedding gift for a single friend who is getting married does the gift exist, is it still the gift you purchased for them, even if they have not received it yet?

quote:

Does He? Are there things he does not transform? There is still sin and evil in the world... hmmm.
Is transformation about physical change or perception change?

quote:

Or just that he works all things together for good for those that love Him? I believe He wants to transform circumstances for all, but there's that pesky free will thing going' on, ya know? How does that fit in... hmmm.
Again I wonder might it be that those who love Him now see truth therefore see God moving in all things. Do you think he only moves in those things related to his children? Did he only move in the lives of His children in the bible? Or was/is he involved in all of creation? If we are all created in His image isn't he a part of all man not just those who have been adopted into His family?

quote:

Again, I need to think more about this... lots of "ideas" swirling around right now...

LOL, like I said Joy, you always make me think!
ditto you make me think as well and I love it...........I love things which make me go hmmmmmmmmm

I think about how much beauty there is in the relationship between God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. then I think how in the garden before the fall there was another trio........Adam, Eve and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. I think how the fall and the curse has changed not only our relationship with the Lord but has made the trio of which we were created to be a part cursed......then I think of the marriages I know and how often they still function as though they are under the curse.........and I wonder.......If I stopped seeing so that I could see would I again see how I was suppose to see as part of a trio?

Does that make sense?



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/9/2008 4:36:45 PM)

quote:

If God is the beholder of our hearts is how we see others, especially when it comes to our desires for a husband/wife, in the eye of the beholder or is it really in the eyes of the beheld?
When I wrote this statement I was sure beauty was in the eyes of the beholder, which as a Christian, should be God.

Now I am not sure. I am beginning to think just as God is love, not that he give loves, so is true with beauty. God does not allow us to see beauty but to begin to realize, since he is in all things, and he is beauty all things are beautiful.

I am also beginning to wonder if the reason we don't see beauty or God in all people,places and things is because beauty can only be seen in the eyes of the beheld.

I pray a man will see me through God's eyes. I pray a man, who's heart is beholden by the Lord, will see me through God's eyes.

Yet I wonder should my prayer change? Should my prayer be instead let more and more beauty be in me?

Is beauty really in the eyes of the beholden or is it in the eyes of the beheld?

I read more of "The Shack" last night and this morning.

I can't get the book out of my mind.

No book has ever had such a profound touch on my life.

I wish I could explain how or why. I can't

I am not even sure what I think about the book.

There is a dept of truth in it that I can't seem to grasp clearly yet it is transforming my whole paradigm ...........

Shifting around pieces of a puzzle I did not realize I was trying to put together and giving me a clearer picture to follow.

In the book there is quite a bit on marriage, fitting since the whole book is about relationship,which I believe every single person should grasp before saying "I do"

Why am I bringing up the book in this thread?

Beauty.......Closing the book one thought came to mind.......beauty.

The Shack is the most beautiful book I have every read.........

Beauty is in the eye of the beheld.

Beheld by beauty is helping me see marriage, relationships and my future husband differently..........



ShallbeRebuilt -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/10/2008 12:51:45 AM)

It is always very important that everything that seems to be truth be measured against the truth of scripture.

A review of The Shack, from Boundless.org

shallbe



OneJohn410 -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/10/2008 2:32:36 AM)

Hi Joy2give2u,

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

Joy you've said to me, "Oh Lord, You are so beautiful!" yet, you've never seen me!!

I see you Lord.

I see you in a sky painted with red, pinks and purples.

I see you in the early morning mist dancing across the lake


Do you see God seated on a throne in heaven? I have to make a mental image of that. I have seen beauty in God's creation, but I've never placed Him inside it like you are talking about. I don't see Him visiting the earth every so often in a rainbow, or a mist on a lake.

quote:

I love the Lord more then I can express and find Him more beautiful then anything or one I have ever encountered.......His beauty takes my breath away yet I know if his physical appearance did not meet my standard of beauty how I saw Him would change slightly. What an humbling thought.


I'm not out to hack this post. I really am not. I just find this spot off. How is that humbling? Do you think you'll have earthly standards that can be met at that time?

quote:

As a single woman I wonder........do I really see others, in particular men, by not seeing them? Do I only look for God in those my soul find as beautiful? Have I ever opened myself to seeing God's beauty by choosing not to see through physical eyes?

If I proclaim Lord, you are so beautiful and he lives in others ,should I not see them as beautiful as I see Him without seeing Him physically?


As a single guy, I know for a fact that to see others, in particular women, I do have to keep my eyes open. I don't look for God in others- I call that the love of Christ in them. God's beauty- you are right- it is not seen physically here on earth.

I also know from reading the Bible that the Lord does not live in others. The Holy Spirit lives in those saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, who is Lord of lords.

Thy words, O Lord, have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against Thee. Does that share the spirit of God's Word?

OneJohn410



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/11/2008 12:59:35 PM)

quote:

It is always very important that everything that seems to be truth be measured against the truth of scripture.
I agree which can only be done by taking the time to read the book ourselves and then measuring it up against scripture. ( It is also important to remember the authors do not claim the book is truth thus why it is fiction)

Since reading the book I have read many reviews of the book, both pro and con, and one thing which has stood out the most is how closed most of us are to "seeing" or "asking questions" outside of our own theology.

I read the review you link and obviously disagree with his conclusion mostly because I disagree with some of his key statements.

For example..........

"God's revelation to us is now mediated communication. We may long for im-mediate or unmediated communication, but today our sin stands between us and the Holy God. God has given his full and perfect and sufficient revelation in the Bible. It is in the Bible that God gives us the rule as to how we may know Him and how we may live in a way that honors Him"

The bible tells me that my sins, since accepting the gift of Jesus, was washed away with His blood at the cross.

Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin__7. because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

I also find in the Lord's prayer. The example Jesus gives us as to how to pray.........asking forgiveness for my sins is way down on the list...........if my sins kept me from experiencing God's kingdom here on earth ,as it is in heaven, why would Jesus ask me to pray for for His kingdom to come to me before asking me to pray for forgiveness for my sins?

Come to think of it why would Jesus recommend we pray for our daily bread before asking us to ask for forgiveness for our sins if our sin keeps us from Him?

I find it interesting that when he tells us to ask God to forgive our debt(sins)it is followed closely with how by acknowledging our own sin we then in turn are able to forgive another........very interesting.

My point......not to get into a theological debate in this thread but to point out that no matter how much we each proclaim we only stand on God's truth, the Bible, every one of us reads the bible(and others books as well) based on the theology we believe. Most of us are quite good at finding the verses needed to support our theology.

I highly recommend the book. I would also suggest reading it before reading reviews along with praying for God to give you discernment and an awareness it is not fact but fiction.

After reading it for yourself then it is interesting to read the varied reviews.

Trust the Lord he will quicken your spirit when something doesn't seem right........ then you and he can dialog why such and such seems wrong to you........unless of course your theology says God no longer speaks.

I believe any time we go to the Lord with questions we grow in our relationship with him.



sunshinesoprano -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/11/2008 1:04:42 PM)

This is something that God has really been dealing with me about lately. My appearance...or my perception of my appearance...has always hindered me...in all sorts of areas of my life.

I've always felt like people deemed me as lesser because I wasn't the ideal height, weight, body type, etc.

But something that I keep trying to remember is that God is the Master Potter.

He made each vessel for a particular reason, in a particular way, to carry a particular message.

We shoudln't question the creator, though it's hard.

And even when something might not be what we see as beautiful, "God created it, him, her..." It, therefore, is God's handiwork and of great value.



joy2give2u -> RE: Beauty in the eye of the beholder (8/11/2008 1:10:06 PM)

sunshinesoprano I can relate..........we often let our reality dictate how we see ourselves instead of asking God........Lord who do you say I am.



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