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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 2:22:58 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I see you seem to ignore that Russia has funded and supported whole heartedly the dissidents in SO since the founding of Georgia.
Typical how someone like you trash a freedom loving democracy for a increasingly despotic nation, lead by a former KGB Card carrying communist who has been in some form of political power in Russia since the "fall" of the Soviet Union. The USSR never fell, it merely went into hiding. And dare i say, it is starting to take its territory back.
Georgian civilians do not deserve to suffer for the ways of their leaders any more than Iraqi civilians deserved to suffer for what Saddam Hussein did. But since you talk about Georgia's leadership as a "freedom loving democracy," let's see what Vladimir Putin had to say about the Georgian leaders:
Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said after the U.S. airlifted Georgian troops home from Iraq. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed 10 Ossetian villages at once, who ran over elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds -- these leaders must be taken under protection.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 2:58:22 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
No, there's a key difference - France will allow US troops on their soil, but (again) Pakistan will not. One would think if Pakistan were truly our buddies, that stance would be different - especially as it would allow our Special Forces to go after Al Qaeda's leadership at the source.
And what about Georgia - will they allow our troops on their soil?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 3:12:14 PM
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scutus
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From: Sydney, Australia
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I think there's a fair bit of confusion going on. Russia has declared a unilateral ceasefire. Russia and France have agreed to truce terms. Russia have not occupied Gori, nor in fact any other city in Georgia proper. That was quite simply misinformation from Georgia, whether intentional or not is up in the air. AFAIK, there were only two instances in which Russian forces crossed the disputed borders between Abkhazia and Georgia (no reported instances from South Essetia), and the first was a ground raid to destroy a military base in Senaki. I'm not sure what the second instance was.
This is what the military is supposed to do- the Russians bombed Georgia, but they've generally kept themselves to military targets. This way, there is no chance of further Georgian retaliation ever against South Ossetia, and it leaves Russia in a better negotiating position with Georgia.
The fears of Russia annexing Georgia are unfounded of course.
< Message edited by scutus -- 8/12/2008 3:59:02 PM >
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Suo enim quisque studio maxime ducitur.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 3:59:37 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1588
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
And what about Georgia - will they allow our troops on their soil?
That doesn't matter. The US cannot go gallivanting across borders like Custer to play world policeman any longer.
I'm for the US getting involved in the current Russia-Georgia ordeal diplomatically, but for once, let's relax before running off half-cocked, which is precisely the same bull-in-a-china-shop mentality that got us into trouble in Iraq after Saddam's regime was up-ended.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 4:17:11 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
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quote:
That doesn't matter. The US cannot go gallivanting across borders like Custer to play world policeman any longer.
I'm for the US getting involved in the current Russia-Georgia ordeal diplomatically, but for once, let's relax before running off half-cocked, which is precisely the same bull-in-a-china-shop mentality that got us into trouble in Iraq after Saddam's regime was up-ended.
Oh, I don't know if we need troops - just assurances of support and weapons.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:20:13 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
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quote:
The fears of Russia annexing Georgia are unfounded of course.
I think Russia's neighbors would beg to differ. History shows that Russia will always act (in this case over react) to defend any perceieved threat to her interest....a lesson the Georgian President apparently forgot (yes, he does bear some responsibility for provoking Russia). It wasn't a very wise move on his part....
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:39:59 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
The fears of Russia annexing Georgia are unfounded of course.
I think Russia's neighbors would beg to differ. History shows that Russia will always act (in this case over react) to defend any perceieved threat to her interest....a lesson the Georgian President apparently forgot (yes, he does bear some responsibility for provoking Russia). It wasn't a very wise move on his part....
This is the same sort of thing that the US has engaged in in the past throughout Central and South America It's important to consider the issue with Georgia in context; it's certainly no worse than the coupe the CIA sponsored in Chile that brought Pinochet to power in 1973.
That said, this isn't something we should be totally complacent about, either. Russia has gotten awfully nationalist in the past 5-10 years, and I don't think anyone wants to repeat WWII. This would be a good time to make sure that the EU is beefing up its military in Eastern Europe and isn't afraid of a war with Russia.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:46:30 PM
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wing2000
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quote:
This is the same sort of thing that the US has engaged in in the past throughout Central and South America It's important to consider the issue with Georgia in context; it's certainly no worse than the coupe the CIA sponsored in Chile that brought Pinochet to power in 1973.
Yes, the US just used less overt methods and third party proxys to carry out her security and economic objectives in her back yard.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:53:11 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1580
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
The fears of Russia annexing Georgia are unfounded of course.
I think Russia's neighbors would beg to differ. History shows that Russia will always act (in this case over react) to defend any perceieved threat to her interest....a lesson the Georgian President apparently forgot (yes, he does bear some responsibility for provoking Russia). It wasn't a very wise move on his part....
This is the same sort of thing that the US has engaged in in the past throughout Central and South America It's important to consider the issue with Georgia in context; it's certainly no worse than the coupe the CIA sponsored in Chile that brought Pinochet to power in 1973.
That said, this isn't something we should be totally complacent about, either. Russia has gotten awfully nationalist in the past 5-10 years, and I don't think anyone wants to repeat WWII. This would be a good time to make sure that the EU is beefing up its military in Eastern Europe and isn't afraid of a war with Russia.
Blessedinnyc, it is very interesting that you point out US foreign policy in countries south of our borders in this discussion of Russia and Georgia. US foreign policy has a record of undermining, destabilizing, and contributing to the overthrow of democratically elected governments. It happened as recently as 2002, when a coup d'etat with the objective of bringing down Chavez failed. And you are completely correct in stating that the CIA was involved in Pinochet's rise to power - Salvador Allende was democratically elected by the Chilean people, and yet he was brought down. What followed was years of dictatorship, with many "desaparecidos" (disappeared ones), and soccer stadiums being used as makeshift jails.
One needs to be a good amalgamation of historical amnesia, obtuseness, and naivete to take George W. Bush seriously when he decries Russia's actions - what, Russia is out to eliminate a democratic, freedom-loving government? Anyone who knows the Georgian president knows that we're not dealing with a true democrat. The man is a thug who is unashamed to use thuggish methods to get his agenda through, even if that means charging political opponents with treason (in this he's actually worse than Bush; at least Dubya implies it).
Russia's leaders may be no saints, but let's not fall for the deception that the Georgian president and his men are boy scouts, because as per an earlier post of mine, they've targeted and killed innocent South Ossetian civilians in ways that are reminiscent of the acts of the Baath towards Iraq civilians during the rule of a mustachioed dictator from Tikrit, Iraq.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 12:19:43 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
I don't think the Russians want to take the capital of Georgia (Tbilisi) so much as grind up the Georgian military wherever they may be.
So it is OK for Russia to not only defend a contested territory but to destroy a sovereign nations military killing civilians along the way? Well in that case I can't understand why anyone would be upset with how Russia is handling this.
It seemed to work for us defending Kuwait. (or were you against that too?)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 12:37:28 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
It seemed to work for us defending Kuwait. (or were you against that too?)
Actually, we didn't act alone in Kuwait. Kuwait was a well recognized sovereign nation.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 1:26:22 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
It seemed to work for us defending Kuwait. (or were you against that too?)
Actually, we didn't act alone in Kuwait. Kuwait was a well recognized sovereign nation.
Other than the U.S & British Royal Air Force, what other country's planes were bombing Iraq in 1991?
Since South Ossetia independence since 1992 is not "well recognized", they don't count?
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 2:31:00 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Other than the U.S & British Royal Air Force, what other country's planes were bombing Iraq in 1991?
Canada, France, and Italy dropped ordinance...
As well, air units of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and United Araba Emirates conducted a range of combat operations and were full participants in the air campaign.
Other countries like New Zealand, Argentina, Korea and others contributed refueling and logistical aircraft...
John
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 11:31:15 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7691
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Hmmm... "vigorous and ongoing military lead humanitarian mission."
How will Russia respond?
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 2:00:11 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
Blessedinnyc, it is very interesting that you point out US foreign policy in countries south of our borders in this discussion of Russia and Georgia. US foreign policy has a record of undermining, destabilizing, and contributing to the overthrow of democratically elected governments. It happened as recently as 2002, when a coup d'etat with the objective of bringing down Chavez failed.
I'd use this, Rich, but this isn't something that historians generally accept to be true, yet. I also don't necessarily think an overthrow of Chavez would be along the lines of the Chilean coupe at this point.
quote:
And you are completely correct in stating that the CIA was involved in Pinochet's rise to power - Salvador Allende was democratically elected by the Chilean people, and yet he was brought down. What followed was years of dictatorship, with many "desaparecidos" (disappeared ones), and soccer stadiums being used as makeshift jails.
What makes the overthrow of Allende so terrible at this point was that the guy was democratically elected, he favored free speech, and spoke mostly like the "socialists" in Scandinavia do. The guy wasn't a commie, but we would have none of a Socialist president, and opted instead to overthrow him for perhaps the second most repressive regime in the second half of the 20th century in Latin America. (The worst being that of General Garcia and Efrain Rios Montt in Guatemala in the late '70s and early '80s, who also received some help from the Reagan administration.)
quote:
Russia's leaders may be no saints, but let's not fall for the deception that the Georgian president and his men are boy scouts, because as per an earlier post of mine, they've targeted and killed innocent South Ossetian civilians in ways that are reminiscent of the acts of the Baath towards Iraq civilians during the rule of a mustachioed dictator from Tikrit, Iraq.
My main concern is Russian nationalism, here, though. I think the conservatives have a point when they say this smacks of the re-militarization of the Rhineland, and I think the best move is for us to do what we did in the '80s with the USSR- encourage a large military buildup in Eastern Europe until either Russia goes bankrupt trying to keep up with the EU and/or NATO military or gives up on any possibility of invading the EU.
The last thing we want is a war between two nuclear powers (France has nukes and several other countries have them through NATO program), and finding ourselves either on the side of too much intervention or too much weakness increases the likelihood of a war with Russia in the next 20 years. One thing that would nip both in the bud, ironically enough, would be a major military buildup to demonstrate that not only would Russia (and the everyone else) would lose a nuclear war, but also that Russia would get whallopped in a conventional war as well.
I know I argued against a missile defense system in the Czech Republic earlier, but I think at this point, we should install one that can stop Russian missiles. This will force Russia to devote a lot of money and research to working on ICBMs that can get past our missile shield without necessarily weakening the protection offered by MAD (Russia still has submarines that may or may not be able to get past our missile shields). We also need to make sure that the EU can handily defeat a Russian invasion of Eastern Europe and still have enough time to make it all the way back to Moscow before winter- if Russia were to be so foolish as to do so.
Finally, we need to be prepared to drive a wedge between Russia and China. Russia and China had a secret border war in the late '60s, and some territory is still disputed between the two. A shrewd European or American leader would be able to find a way to exploit this.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 2:35:02 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
Hmmm... "vigorous and ongoing military lead humanitarian mission."
How will Russia respond?
Reuters reported that the president's announcement was interpreted by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, a close ally of the United States, to mean that the U.S. military would be taking control of Georgia's ports, but the Pentagon denied that was the case.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:08:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
My answer was Kuwait.
Everyone else's was nit-picking my response.
Typical right-wing thinking; Petty & obtuse.
Yeah, let's not get caught up in facts and reality.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:22:15 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
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Ezekiel 38
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog (often interpreted to be modern day Russia), the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush (modern day Iran and northern African Nations, all getting more and more cozy with Russia) and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you.(interesting-what will happen if Russia is out of the G-8 and isolated by NATO-I guess they would have to find a coalition somewhere, huh)
7 " 'Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. 8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel (interesting the support Russia has given in the who anti-Israel war of words-today anyway-that is escalating around the world), which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land (wonder if that's anything like re-conquering "republics" from the former USSR-hmmm).
10 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land." 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages [d] will say to you, "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" '
14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
17 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. 18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his brother. 22 I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.'
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:37:09 PM
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Butterflytearz
Posts: 142
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Blue,,
amen
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:55:33 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
My answer was Kuwait.
Everyone else's was nit-picking my response.
Typical right-wing thinking; Petty & obtuse.
Yeah, let's not get caught up in facts and reality.
ha ha.. you noticed that too!
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 6:38:45 PM
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Pamsy
Posts: 194
Joined: 5/4/2005
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I heard somebody mention that prophecy, too. Guess we'll have to wait and see what Russia does if it is time yet for that or not. blue, would you post further with that (along with your clarifications) as far as the rapture is concerned? I really enjoyed reading it with the (parenthesis) for added explanation.
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1 Chorinthians 13 vs. 4-8. Love is patient, love is kind.......Love never fails."
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 7:34:35 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
For the zillionth time, the UN is primarily a diplomatic and humanitarian organization - not a military one like NATO.
yep, they are more interested in raping innocent women and profiting from the oil-for-food scandal. A fine insitution indeed. You must of colleted for UNICEF on Halloween when you were a munchkin.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 8:33:29 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
My main concern is Russian nationalism, here, though. I think the conservatives have a point when they say this smacks of the re-militarization of the Rhineland, and I think the best move is for us to do what we did in the '80s with the USSR- encourage a large military buildup in Eastern Europe until either Russia goes bankrupt trying to keep up with the EU and/or NATO military or gives up on any possibility of invading the EU.
And who is going to pay for this military build up. The US is certainly not in a position give large amounts of military aid. I'm not convinced the current situation calls for a cold war solution. It's good to see Secretary of State Rice is traveling to the region in the coming days...one might recall her primary area of expertise was the Soviet Union prior to becoming National Security Advisor and later Secretary of State. It would be interesting to see her take on Putin.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/13/2008 9:19:08 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 609
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
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quote:
Anyone who knows the Georgian president knows that we're not dealing with a true democrat. The man is a thug who is unashamed to use thuggish methods to get his agenda through, even if that means charging political opponents with treason (in this he's actually worse than Bush; at least Dubya implies it).
Now go ahead and back that up RichLP since you seem to have intimate knowledge of the man, or did you just toss that out there because it sounded good. From everything i've read about the man and listening to interview's of him i would say your talking about someone else.
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The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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