Was Grace Always Avaliable (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Was Grace Always Avaliable


No
  4% (1)
Yes
  96% (24)
Maybe
  0% (0)
Uh?
  0% (0)


Total Votes : 25
(last vote on : 8/11/2008 11:25:46 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

manichunter -> Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 1:00:41 PM)

Was "Grace" operating before the first covenant and within the first covenant?

I believe God changes not. Grace has always been avaliable from God for a person to appeal to for repentance, forgiveness, and restoration.

Why was Adam and Eve spared immediate death? Why was Abraham allowed to go forth out of Egypt? Why was Moses spared after striking the rock? Why was David not stoned for his murder and adultery?

I believe it was God's grace that had not yet been fully manifested to all man except those who appealed to what was already avaliable. Grace has always been avaliable for a person who loves God, is repentive of sin, and desires to please God in what they do.



bob97 -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 1:36:15 PM)

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain….or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old Testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today.

Bob



Bluethread -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 1:54:08 PM)

Though this is not something that is subject to majority vote, it is good that we are clarifying this. Some believe that more was required of those who lived prior to the incarnation of Yeshua(Jesus). However, Hebrews 11 and the letter to the Romans tell us that Avraham was counted as righteous before Moshe chronicled the commandments of Adonai and the sign(s) of the covenant was(were) instituted.



rcjames -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 2:12:13 PM)

Yes, or those rebellious, adultryous, lying, chosen ones would have been consumed in the early pages of Exodus.

Thanks
RC



Lapidoth -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 2:55:44 PM)

As David said,

"His MERCY endures forever!!!!!!!!"

I voted "YES."



EStan -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 3:06:43 PM)

YES. Interestingly, I'm currently reading "What's So Amazing About Grace?" by Philip Yancey. How amazing it truly is!



LCannon -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 4:53:44 PM)

Looking forward(old), after Pentecost(new) is as secure as when we see His Face in His Glory.



manichunter -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 5:02:14 PM)

Dear saint, I voted yes as well, but I also understand that Abraham's did not just trust God mentally for the promise, but he showed it daily by keeping torah. The torah has always manifested grace, and grace manifest torah. We are going through Romans on another thread. You should join us. I think you have if I recall properly.

Where they waiting on the Messiah, to complete their salvation? What was the promise God gave Eve? What was the promise God gave Abraham? What was the promise that God gave Israel?

How would He redeem mankind? He already had redeemed mankind.

So why was Adam, Abel, Seth, Abraham, Noah, and Isaac obedient to God? How did they show that they believed the promise?

If "Grace" has always been avaliable, then why can't the "Torah" be avaliable now. The mystery is that they have always worked together even beyond the knowledge of mankind. Why would they stop working together today. For even the sacrifice of the Messiah was before the foundation of the world working on mankind's part for redemption before creation. Re 13:8 -All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



JimboFletch -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 5:08:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Yes, or those rebellious, adultryous, lying, chosen ones would have been consumed in the early pages of Exodus.

Thanks
RC

Or eliminated at the Garden!



jbow -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 6:47:36 PM)

Absolutely... without grace Adam would have died the day he ate of "that tree".
But Adam did not die in the day he ate of that fruit. God gave grace. He killed an animal to make skins to cover their nakedness. He began right there teaching man this lesson: "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin". What do you want to bet that animal was a lamb?

J



prophet -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 8:29:13 PM)

YES!!!!

Ge 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Ex 33:12
And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

Shalom



Odeliya -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 9:02:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon
Looking forward(old), after Pentecost(new) is as secure as when we see His Face in His Glory.

Yes, Amen! wonder where vote no came from ?
Salvation always was and always will be By Grace thru faith. No other way exist..If there was an alternative route Jews not only would be the first ones to figure it out, but we would also have the market of "How To do it" books already cornered!
Why would I be shvitzing on my intership right now, as legal slave? I would own a little Salvation Shop, working on a pre-labor Day sale.[:D]

quote:

If "Grace" has always been avaliable, then why can't the "Torah" be avaliable now.

It is widely available, in every Bible, first 5 books.
Are you getting somewhere with this , Mani brother?



colliefan -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/6/2008 10:10:33 PM)

see my sig



manichunter -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/7/2008 2:15:56 AM)

I also understand that Abraham's did not just trust God mentally for the promise, but he showed it daily by keeping torah. The torah has always manifested grace, and grace manifest torah.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/7/2008 7:51:03 AM)

I voted yes, but I'm not so sure its that grace was always available so much as its that God has always been a gracious God. I dunno, though. Maybe its the same thing.



manichunter -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/7/2008 11:05:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

I voted yes, but I'm not so sure its that grace was always available so much as its that God has always been a gracious God. I dunno, though. Maybe its the same thing.



You are correct. God is what He does. God is love, He does not choose to love, He can do nothing but love, because it is who He is. God is Grace.



manichunter -> RE: Was Grace Always Avaliable (8/8/2008 11:46:19 PM)

I agree that the animal sacrifices are needed, but the living sacrifices of the believer are and always have been required. The animal sacrifices were meant to show believer what Jesus would fulfill and what believers would be called to immulate.

Do you know how to be a spiritual drink offering. Paul did and he sacrificed himself as such. The drink offering was apart of the meal offering. Paul was immulating it towards others. So, no the sacrifices have not stopped, the understanding and application of them should be manifested in our lives. This was always the case since the offerings of Cain and Abel. They revealed what was in them as they should do now. The animal was a shadow of the giver. Now we are to be spiritual priest that offer up burnt offerings, meal offerings, and peace offerings in our spirit by the Spirit. So yes the animal sacrifices have ended.

Do you understand the drink offering? Do you give yourself as a drink offering? You would have to understand it in order to do it. You cannot just say I know about it. You have to know what the Spirit says regarding its spiritual application. We are told to be a living. It is by spiritual torah (understanding and applying the animal sacrifices in our life)

Php 2:17 -Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.

2Ti 4:6 - For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. The body of Christ is missing so much by throwing out the baby with the bath water. By the way the pig is not good to eat, not because of Torah, but health reasons. All the torah is written on our heart and it is to be applied differently. Not all of it pertains to everybody in equal measure. The Torah has always been taught by God and lived by men in God's grace.

Ge 26:5 - because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Ge 6:8 -But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Ge 6:9 -This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a just and righteous man, blameless in his [evil] generation; Noah walked [in habitual fellowship] with God.



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