RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/9/2008 6:30:29 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Where does the Lord forgive apart from repentance?
Actually that would be forgive as the Lord commanded you to forgive.
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/9/2008 9:51:58 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
On the cross.
Then do you believe in universal salvation, URF? Is everyone forgiven because Jesus went to the cross and therefore saved because they are forgiven?
Jesus prayed from the cross, "Father, forgive them." He didn't forgive us. He asked His Father to. There is a distinct difference in what He did. In fact, perhaps we should ask why Jesus didn't say "I forgive you"????
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 1:45:01 AM
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Kath
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quote:
Then do you believe in universal salvation, URF? Is everyone forgiven because Jesus went to the cross and therefore saved because they are forgiven?
That would be off topic to this discussion.
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 7:43:46 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
On the cross.
Then do you believe in universal salvation, URF? Is everyone forgiven because Jesus went to the cross and therefore saved because they are forgiven?
Jesus prayed from the cross, "Father, forgive them." He didn't forgive us. He asked His Father to. There is a distinct difference in what He did. In fact, perhaps we should ask why Jesus didn't say "I forgive you"????
Is forgiveness salvation?
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 4:03:32 PM
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Kath
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The topic is not salvation. The topic is do you agree or not with the statement that only heathens say I'm sorry because they don't understand what forgiveness means, and/or that Christians should not say I'm sorry because we are suppose to ask for forgiveness? Since Christians cannot grant salvation to another person it is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 4:24:19 PM
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humbleinspirit
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I do believe that some unbelievers (heathens) do understand forgiveness and how that unfogiveness only hurts them instead. This is taught in such groups as AA, support groups, etc.
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 7:39:05 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
I do believe that some unbelievers (heathens) do understand forgiveness and how that unfogiveness only hurts them instead. This is taught in such groups as AA, support groups, etc.
That's true. I remember a teacher (who stated very plainly that he was not a Christian) saying that we need to let go of the past. To do that we have to forgive, even though there's no real reason to do so.
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May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 9:00:29 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
That would be off topic to this discussion.
In this thread I'm hesitant to say "I'm sorry" but I am---I was not intentionally diverting the thread to a new topic. I was just following a comment with what I saw as the next logical question. But I am sorry and will try to be more aware. LL
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 9:02:21 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
On the cross
URF, So where does Jesus say this from the cross?
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 10:44:50 PM
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Ruthie
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Apologetic Christian lady : "Oh wow. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to drive over your foot. Do you want me to take you to the hospital?"
Injured Christian lady : "Not with you I won't. 'Sorry'?! Hmph! A real Christian would say 'forgive me'! Now, if you don't mind, you heathen, I'm going to sit over here and sulk until gangrene sets in."
Apologetic Christian lady : "Forgive me for thinking you had sense."
Injured Christian lady : "Much better!"
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/10/2008 11:52:44 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
On the cross
URF, So where does Jesus say this from the cross?
He doesn't say it, He does it.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/11/2008 12:02:32 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
On the cross
URF, So where does Jesus say this from the cross?
He doesn't say it, He does it.
This brings up a good point. Forgiveness isn't something you say. It's something you do.
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May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/11/2008 12:06:01 AM
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Kath
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quote:
This brings up a good point. Forgiveness isn't something you say. It's something you do. I agree, I thought we were to forgive even if they don't ask, or don't use the proper words. The bitterness eats at our hearts, not the one who offended us.
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/11/2008 12:08:06 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
This brings up a good point. Forgiveness isn't something you say. It's something you do. I agree, I thought we were to forgive even if they don't ask, or don't use the proper words. The bitterness eats at our hearts, not the one who offended us.
And you've brought up another good point Kath. I may butcher this quote, but I'm telling it the way I remember it. When you forgive, you open a prison door to find the one you released was you.
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May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/12/2008 1:23:20 PM
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deliveredarling
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Forgiveness is not for other people, it's for us.
When we hold unforgiveness in our hearts, it doesn't poison them, it poisons us.
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Luke 8:16
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 2:58:58 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Forgiveness is not for other people, it's for us.
When we hold unforgiveness in our hearts, it doesn't poison them, it poisons us.
I agree that we are not to allow a root of bitterness to grow in us. And yes, it is self destructive but it also defiles many.
However I still think we misunderstand forgiveness. For example, the father of the prodigal held forgiveness in his heart toward his wayward son, but it was not until the son returned home and confessed his sin that the forgiveness was given and received. The father didn't go out looking for the son so that he could tell him that he was forgiven. The son had to return home, confessing his wrongdoing. Yes, the father longingly waited for the son's return but he could not forgive what had not been repented of.
Where does God say with words we are forgiven apart from repentance?
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 7:10:58 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
I agree that we are not to allow a root of bitterness to grow in us. And yes, it is self destructive but it also defiles many.
However I still think we misunderstand forgiveness. For example, the father of the prodigal held forgiveness in his heart toward his wayward son, but it was not until the son returned home and confessed his sin that the forgiveness was given and received. The father didn't go out looking for the son so that he could tell him that he was forgiven. The son had to return home, confessing his wrongdoing. Yes, the father longingly waited for the son's return but he could not forgive what had not been repented of.
We repent not because we doubt the Father will forgive us, we repent because we know we have done wrong.
Jesus doen't chase us to tell us He forgives us. We run to Him, thanking Him for His forgiveness.
Repentance goes hand in hand with forgiveness.
If one doesn't repent, then they are unwilling to acknowledge the wrongness of their ways. They are refusing to turn from it.
The acknowledgment of our wrongness is for us to realize the error and not do it again.
The forgiveness is already their, waiting for us to see and accept it.
Looking at it from that perspective, I can see how someone might think that heathens say I'm sorry. From the eternal view, they do not understand the forgiveness being offered. They can only comprehend the earthly understanding.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 10:35:15 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Sometimes, I wonder how much modern psychology has so changed our theology so that we don't even recognize that what we are saying is not Scriptural. I don't write this to put anyone down, especially since I must admit that I have also believed that the act of forgiveness frees the forgiver, so it is "for us." My problem with that idea is that it is a throw-back to the me, me, me. It is selfish.
I forgive you for myself. There, I feel better. Now, I can proceed in health. Now, I am free.
Have we swallowed a selfish lie? I think we have.
Messiah, our example who said "do as I do," cries out on the cross, "Father! Forgive them! They don't realize what they are doing! (There, now I feel better. I can proceed in peace. I am free.)"
Certainly, G-d forgives for His Name's sake, but look at that: His Name is what brings health to His people -- He who forgives all our sins and heals all our diseases. "Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy."
When we have the attitude of forgiving for our own sake, are we not trying to be little gods? Making ourselves the most important ones in the forgiving process?
"Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you." This Scriptures doesn't have a trace of the same selfishness in it. It is the act of a humble heart, the act of giving place to another.
I think we have been duped into thinking forgiving is for us, when that is just not G-d's way of doing things.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 11:24:59 AM
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doinkdom
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Very thought provoking post Abiyah, right to the heart. I do think we are to forgive others as God forgave us, but not with the heart you mention of selfishness.
And when God tells us to forgive our enemies...if an enemy confesses & repents then they are no longer an enemy...so to forgive an enemy, they must actually be an enemy with no confession or repentence.
Anyways, I do believe that forgiveness tests our own hearts and brings us to an appreciation of "what has God overlooked or forgiven in me today?"
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 12:55:10 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Sometimes, I wonder how much modern psychology has so changed our theology so that we don't even recognize that what we are saying is not Scriptural. I don't write this to put anyone down, especially since I must admit that I have also believed that the act of forgiveness frees the forgiver, so it is "for us." My problem with that idea is that it is a throw-back to the me, me, me. It is selfish.
I forgive you for myself. There, I feel better. Now, I can proceed in health. Now, I am free.
Have we swallowed a selfish lie? I think we have.
Messiah, our example who said "do as I do," cries out on the cross, "Father! Forgive them! They don't realize what they are doing! (There, now I feel better. I can proceed in peace. I am free.)"
Certainly, G-d forgives for His Name's sake, but look at that: His Name is what brings health to His people -- He who forgives all our sins and heals all our diseases. "Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy."
When we have the attitude of forgiving for our own sake, are we not trying to be little gods? Making ourselves the most important ones in the forgiving process?
"Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you." This Scriptures doesn't have a trace of the same selfishness in it. It is the act of a humble heart, the act of giving place to another.
I think we have been duped into thinking forgiving is for us, when that is just not G-d's way of doing things.
I think the heart of the matter has been over looked.
If we hold on to our anger, what good does that do our service to Him? What good does it do us.
If Jesus didn't ask His Father to forgive us, where would we be? What good would have come from Him holding His anger against us?
Selfish, absolutely not. To think they we are powerful enough to change another who is determined to have a hard heart is trying to be a little god. We simply are not that powerful.
Holding on to the anger is selfish because it focuses on our own hurt and misery, we have them let the anger control us.
Forgiving allows God to be seen and demonstrated through us.
Not pop psychology, pure demonstration from Jesus. Not scriptural? look again, please.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 1:00:59 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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Are you saying we are to forgive before it is even asked of us?
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 1:03:07 PM
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deliveredarling
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Why would someone need to wait to forgive? That's time wasted harboring ill feelings. we are to forgive quickly and move on.
"Don't let the sun go down on your anger". (paraphrased)
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 1:11:08 PM
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hotsaucygma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Are you saying we are to forgive before it is even asked of us?
Hmm, I guess why not? If we have been hurt by someone, we can forgive them even if they do not realize they need forgiveness, can't we? There are times I have not told someone that I was hurt or offended, so they never had the chance to "ask".
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Dear Lord, let my words today be as sweet and delicious as cheesecake... for tomorrow I may have to eat them!
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RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" sa... - 8/13/2008 1:12:02 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Are you saying we are to forgive before it is even asked of us?
I would say yes in the context of knowing that your brother has something against you or in the context of someone who has offended us asking for forgiveness. We do not need to wait on them to ask before we can forgive them.
How many parents have done this? Especially parents of estranged adult children? Or even vice versa.
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