Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> God



Message

ChelaW -> Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/5/2008 11:02:37 AM)

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~asrusch/img/jesus.jpg

The above is a link posted by another poster. And I was just wondering, this can't be what Jesus looks like (white skin, blue eyes, straight-ish hair) based on both what the Bible says (He had hair of wool, for example) and where he lived. Where did this idea of His image originate?

Just curious.



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/5/2008 11:09:02 AM)

quote:

(He had hair of wool, for example)

Have a verse for that?

I agree with your premise that the picture is a European's concept and not likely even close how He looked. (But the eyes look brown to me.)



ChelaW -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/5/2008 11:54:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

(He had hair of wool, for example)

Have a verse for that?

I agree with your premise that the picture is a European's concept and not likely even close how He looked. (But the eyes look brown to me.)


I know it's in there, but I don't know the verse from the top of my head. Excuse me, and I'll try to locate it...I should not have mentioned it without the verse.



ChelaW -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/5/2008 12:09:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelaW

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

(He had hair of wool, for example)

Have a verse for that?

I agree with your premise that the picture is a European's concept and not likely even close how He looked. (But the eyes look brown to me.)


I know it's in there, but I don't know the verse from the top of my head. Excuse me, and I'll try to locate it...I should not have mentioned it without the verse.


Daniel 7:9
...the hair of his head like the pure wool...

Of course, after more consideration, it could be saying that it was the color of pure wool, instead of the texture.

Either way, He very unlikely looked so European and I was just curious as to where that image of Him began.



stamper_ben -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/5/2008 1:15:43 PM)

I say never mind how Europeans thought He might look like. Instead let's keep our eyes on how Scripture does in fact see Him as He now is.

From Revelation chapter 1 -

13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.



revbob4God -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/5/2008 5:18:43 PM)

Amen, Ben. You know it seems to be a constant question, in our zeal to be close to God, and our hope for Jesus to come again, it is natural that we ponder what he looks like, and I often wonder myself about how that second coming will be, but I will say one thing, I sure hope I have a front row seat!



peace77 -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/8/2008 12:21:16 AM)

The artist's name is Warner Sallman.

For more information see thisStory.



Peace,
AM



Cloak -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/8/2008 12:40:19 PM)

My beautiful Icon is the best way to show Jesus Grace and...Charm! [;)]



JimboFletch -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/8/2008 12:53:40 PM)

Both Daniel and Revelation are about future events and are symbolic. Jesus was around 33 when He went to the cross, a very unlikely age to have white. But considering His earthly lineage, I'd guess His skin was olive, eyes brown, nose prominent, legs & arms muscular, and his beard dark & thick.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/14/2008 1:51:03 AM)

The linked picture is the kind of rendering of Jesus visage that would be common in "Post-Reformation" Europe. Since the USA recieved Christianity from the hands of Europeans, they brought their ideas of what Jesus looked like with them. So, I personally doubt that Jesus looked like much the above artist's impression. Even iconic art was heavily influenced by Roman culture, so the icons would look more like Romans than ancient Jews. Just saying...

Adam



DougHorton -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/14/2008 1:07:05 PM)

We come down on the case of European's for making Jesus look European, but celebrate Koreans that make Him Asian or Africans that make him African. What gives? Why does it matter?

There is a reason God told us not to make images of Him. Not one image would be adequate.

Imagine this picture -- a slain lamb with seven eyes sitting on a throne. Hmmm...



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/14/2008 10:19:25 PM)

Since he is the only God, the Creator of heaven and earth, he cannot endure that any creature of his own hands, or fiction of a creature's imagination should be thrust into his throne, and be made to wear his crown. - Spurgeon



lightshineon -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 2:18:00 AM)

I have heard of people who have had visions of the Lord such as Corrie Tinboone (sp), and others who are Godly people. I guess when it comes down to it if he came in a vison, he could be blonde, blue eyed, or brown with slanted eyes, or black with wooly hair.



tracydolls -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 2:54:29 AM)

I always find that picture everywhere.

It is a lie. And we know liars will not be in Heaven.


The Bible pretty much tells it, Joseph took him INTO Egypt to hide him, and the Egyptians being in AFrica left us a pretty good record of what they looked like.

If Jesus looks anywhere near that picture, he could not have hid in Egypt.

You see alot of people that don't want to believe He walked this earth, and then you see alot of Christians that don't want to believe He walked this earth as a Black man.



Ezra -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 4:37:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I always find that picture everywhere.
It is a lie. And we know liars will not be in Heaven.


Tracy:

This is just a little too extreme. The artist who painted that picture presented his concept in good faith and within the context of his culture. While it may not be yours, it does not indicate any attempt to promote a lie. And to state that the artist will not be in Heaven is just a little too presumptuous.

quote:

you see a lot of Christians that don't want to believe He walked this earth as a Black man.


And that would be as much of a lie as portraying Christ as Caucasian. The Hebrews were a Semitic people, while the Africans were a Hamitic people. There is hardly any resemblance between the two. And the Hebrews had lived in Egypt long before (and for a very long time before) the babe Jesus went into Egypt. Therefore Egyptians would have had no difficulty in accepting Hebrews among them.

It is interesting to see how some of African descent would like to promote the myth that Israel was a black race and Christ was black. If I'm not mistaken this idea started with the Rastafarians.



psende -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 9:32:49 AM)

quote:

Joseph took him INTO Egypt to hide him


I don't think scripture bears out that they were "hiding," although I can understand how this false assumption can be made.

". . . behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream saying, "Arise and take the Child and His mother, and flee to Egypt and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him." (Matt 2:13)

Joseph and family fled across borders, not to disappear into the crowd, but to get out of Herod's realm; much like one would "head for the border" into Mexico or Canada to escape capture and prosecution today.

Once in Egypt, there would be no reason for Joseph to hide; he would be safe from Herod's grasp.



DougHorton -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 2:38:28 PM)

quote:

the Egyptians being in AFrica left us a pretty good record of what they looked like.


They did? They would have been just a traveling family at the time. There was no reason to note them.

Any paintings they made, were made much later by people who never saw the holy family.

However... I lived in Egypt many years. The museum there is more than just mummies. They have a lot of portraits of the people. I was quite surprised when I saw the sarcophagus of one young Egyptian lady with curly blond hair and blue eyes.



tracydolls -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 6:49:34 PM)

quote:

Tracy:

This is just a little too extreme. The artist who painted that picture presented his concept in good faith and within the context of his culture. While it may not be yours, it does not indicate any attempt to promote a lie. And to state that the artist will not be in Heaven is just a little too presumptuous.


Can you show me where I said "the artist will not be in Heaven"?


quote:

And that would be as much of a lie as portraying Christ as Caucasian. The Hebrews were a Semitic people, while the Africans were a Hamitic people.
There is hardly any resemblance between the two.



Can you show me a pic of the Hamitic race or the Semitic race?

From that time?


quote:

However... I lived in Egypt many years. The museum there is more than just mummies. They have a lot of portraits of the people. I was quite surprised when I saw the sarcophagus of one young Egyptian lady with curly blond hair and blue eyes


Can you show me a pic of this blueeyed person? And would you not agree that most of those paintings are BLACK people?

I can give you lots of sites from people tha have studied this intensely.

Here's a white guy that is a Christian, look what he has to say.

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGhistory.htm




Egypt being in Africa, is aFrican, The Egyptians themselves say they come from the south of them, which is what the Sudan now, which has TWICE as many pyramids as Egypt, much older. The DNA says Tanzania below them is where it all started.


Which is Black people still, very dark black people.

Back to OP.

That picture is not accurate, so it is a lie.



DougHorton -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 7:59:41 PM)

quote:

Can you show me a pic of the Hamitic race or the Semitic race?


The Egytians today call themselves the Masriin (Mazraim Gen 10:6)
Hamitic:
http://image50.webshots.com/150/7/65/56/2311765560047765367KmImGn_ph.jpg
http://www.right-travel.com/images/packages/Egypt_Egyptian_Museum_Pharaohs_in_a_row.jpg
http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object2/1559/75/l6412582945_9374.jpg
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/2102/PreviewComp/SuperStock_2102-974.jpg
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/900/PreviewComp/SuperStock_900-850.jpg

Yes, Egyptians knew what blacks looked like:
http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/900-807


quote:

From that time?

1st cent Egyptian:
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/262/PreviewComp/SuperStock_262-2007.jpg
http://www.superstock.com/stock-photography/Egyptian/Mummy

quote:

Can you show me a pic of this blueeyed person?


Sorry. I tried to find it, but can't. But she was there.
quote:


And would you not agree that most of those paintings are BLACK people?

No. Not at all. Egyptians knew who was black. They knew how to paint and sculpt blacks.

Foreigners in Egyptian Art
From http://www.geocities.com/enbp/foreigners.html
quote:

"Four races" from the tomb of Seti I. Egyptians normally portrayed Africans to the south as darker and more "Negroid" than Egyptians, while peoples to the north were drawn in lighter shades. They showed no notion of being in the same "race" as any of these foreign peoples.



tracydolls -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/15/2008 8:57:19 PM)

Doug,

Give me a minute and I will show you some real pics! Not renditions from someone else, it's like reading a paraphrased Bible.


Also the pic that the artist tried to show is the only pic known with mixed or light people. ( no whites)

Your missing the other 6000 pics, bas, reliefs.

And none of them when you walked thru as you say you did, were Black people? Not at all.

OK.

We first have to be honest.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/16/2008 4:19:46 AM)

As I had alluded to earlier...... we seem to forget that Jesus was JEWISH. We cannot look at the Jews now and assume that Jesus looked like them. Why? A crazy little thing called the Diaspora. So what happened is that the Jewish people got scattered, and they "myseginated". However, there is almost zero evidence that Jesus was black. Firstly, assuming that Joseph, Mary, and Jesus looked like Egyptians (which is a tough sell since they were descendents of David), I know several Egyptians... and they aren't black. There is such a hefty line of demarcation between the visage of the Egyptian, Tunisian, and Sudanese that it would be nearly impossible to confuse them.

Secondly, let us assume that the ancient Egyptians might have been "black". Visually, there was enough difference between the ancient Jews and the ancient Egyptians that it was obvious who was fully Hebraic and who was of mixed origin during the exodus... which most scholars would say was some 1500 years prior to Jesus being born. In fact, I would say that Jesus race would look much closer to something of the Palastinian/Jordanian stripe than anything else.

Thirdly...
quote:

Doug,

Give me a minute and I will show you some real pics! Not renditions from someone else, it's like reading a paraphrased Bible.


Also the pic that the artist tried to show is the only pic known with mixed or light people. ( no whites)

Your missing the other 6000 pics, bas, reliefs.

And none of them when you walked thru as you say you did, were Black people? Not at all.

OK.

We first have to be honest.
If we are being fixated on honesty... The above isn't renditions of a picture. It is a picture of an antiquity in a museum. Its not like they took an original and re-did it. Also, Doug never said that there was no such thing as black people in Egypt... what Doug said was that the majority of the Egyptian race looked much the way it does now. The Cyllinder of Cyrus would also tend to agree with this supposition.

Fourth, I've seen "The Color of the Cross" film... It didn't do much for me. But then again, most Jesus movies don't.

Fifth, Doug is quite right that the teaching that the ancient Jews were black did originate with the Rastifarians, and has now spread into two different groups... ultra-liberal "Black Churches" (for example, churches like Jeremiah Wright's old church) and into slightly weirder individuals such as "Prophet Yahweh" who are interested in summoning UFO's "through prayer".

Lastly, it is somewhat disturbing to me that there is this highly anti-semitic refusal to accept the idea that Jesus looked like a Jew. Jesus wasn't some nebulous character whose race shifted like a color-change hot wheels toy. There is practically zero evidence to support the claim that the Jews looked African, and it is just as prideful an assertion as saying that Jesus looked like a western European who couldve gotten lost in the crowd at Caeser's court. My advice? Let's drop the race thing before a mod moves this to the "One Stop" thread... Jesus looked like a Jew... not a hippie Roman.

Adam



tracydolls -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/16/2008 4:27:09 AM)

quote:

Lastly, it is somewhat disturbing to me that there is this highly anti-semitic refusal to accept the idea that Jesus looked like a Jew. Jesus wasn't some nebulous character whose race shifted like a color-change hot wheels toy. There is practically zero evidence to support the claim that the Jews looked African, and it is just as prideful an assertion as saying that Jesus looked like a western European who couldve gotten lost in the crowd at Caeser's court. My advice? Let's drop the race thing before a mod moves this to the "One Stop" thread... Jesus looked like a Jew... not a hippie Roman.



Agreed by me!

Do you believe we should have paintings or images of Him?



Butterflytearz -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/16/2008 1:51:50 PM)

Here is the verse about his hair being as wool.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Interesting point you made there.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/17/2008 4:05:39 AM)

quote:

Do you believe we should have paintings or images of Him?
This is a sticky question. Personally, I think it is perfectly alright to try to create an artistic image of Jesus. It is an over-zealousness for not "making a graven image" that leads to such weirdness as believing that if your picture is taken you lose your soul. Let us remember that most, if not all, of us have not seen Jesus physically. Mentally, maybe... spiritually, possibly- but definitely not physically. So any representation of Christ is bound to be inaccurate. Just like a biographical film that stars someone other than the subject does not represent the exact physical likeness of the subject, the same is true of an artist's painting of Christ.

Jesus was Jewish... end of story.

Adam



Ezra -> RE: Where did this picture of Jesus come from? (8/17/2008 2:35:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Agreed by me!


Tracy:

Obsession with race is never a good thing. I'm glad to see you are willing to drop it. There are no races in Christ, and there will always be racists in this world.


quote:

Do you believe we should have paintings or images of Him?


If the purpose is to create an ikon and worship, venerate or what have you the image, it is definitely forbidden. In fact, it is a sin.

But paintings or images of Christ (no matter how inaccurate) to illustrate Bible truth or to visualize the Gospel narratives could help in certain situations. Illustrated Bible stories help children visualize provided they are told that no artist really knows how Christ or the apostles looked.



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI