Disgusted and Dejected (Full Version)

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protopath -> Disgusted and Dejected (8/3/2008 10:16:45 PM)

Please excuse me if I stray to far into theology. Also excuse the inchorency.

I'm 27yr male, married w/ 2 kids(6 and 12). I'm so sick of the church that I don't know if I can justify taking my family back to "worship."

My father was a methodist minister, he died when I was 4. They were splitting the church and one lady got angry and told my father she wished he would die. She said this at church after the service. He went home and rode his dirtbike to clear his head hit a ditch and broke his neck. Churches have such nice people in them.

My mother remarried. My stepfather is a staunch baptist as is she now. I don't care about denomination much as long as truth is preached.

My wife and I married six months after our son was born. She is seven years my senior and I call her son by a previous marriage mine. My parents hated this.
My wife and I have made many lifestyle changes since then.

We've bounced around some churches. They aren't preaching what the Bible says in my understanding.

1. Tithing was OT law, and not 10%, and most of it went for your own enjoyment. We should now GIVE as we are led. Tithing is rammed down our throats so that we may build giant cathedrals, but we don't give to the poor IN the church.
2. Take care of your widows, i.e. we should be cutting old widows a check every month in today's economy.
3. Jesus didn't drink Welch's at the last supper, they drank wine meaning it contained alcohol.
4. Jesus freed us from the law, sin is what we know to be wrong before God. OT law is not directly applicable. We know what is wrong and right.
5. Jesus took a whip to the people grafting money in the temple, yet most churches are selling church sanctioned mugs, tshirts, and books after the service in the lobby.
6. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, yet I see more lawyers and doctors and such in church than the poor.
7. Spirtual warfare is real, people experience demonic posession, we can help. Instead we give people, even children, pills but do nothnig to treat the root of the problem.

I have many other issues with the church beyond this, but basically it seems more like a Bible-sprinkled social club than the church I read about in the NT.

Not feeling Hebrews 10:25 right now. I need to find a real church first.

Anyhow, we haven't gone in a while. It was making my wife and I far to angry.

This is an issue for my parents.

My father, who is being ordained tonight as deacon, tells me that they have been praying that my family might experience hardship so that we would learn our lesson and think the right way. My mother says that I'm being disrespectful and not being a man when I stated my feelings on this today to her. Please note that I was not nasty and sarcastic as I am being now.

You see, my six-year-old son was taken up front a while back to be saved. All he knew was that it got eveyones approval and was a "spiritual birthday". You get toys on your birthday, no conflict of interest there, ha. We weren't notified till after the fact, and the discussion had happened with him prior to evening service when this happened. We have been preventing them from taking him to church to prevent a sneak-baptism. He's six I don't want him confused any further. I want him to KNOW that he is saved and WHY he is being baptised.

Don't get me wrong, we talk about the bible and Jesus with the kids all the time, my wife has been doing a bible study salvation book(age appropriate) with my youngest since this happened. My oldest and his friends come to me with religous questions frequently.

So it came to head tonight when after a discussion with my mother I went to get my little one from them so he didn't go tonight. And my father said such things to me.

The discussion with my father happened infront of my six year old. After I had said we would discuss this later.

My wife is so mad she could chew through a fence post. I'm sick of this. I'm sick of false churches and false teachers and false doctrines.

Please help us deal with this thing.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 2:45:33 AM)

What can I say to you, Proto? Unfortunately, my own experience informs me that you are right about many churches.

First of all, that woman was wrong and evil to say that to your father. I have no idea what kind of person she was, but i hope she has found forgiveness and has repented. That was just plain nasty.

But I agree -- many of the churches are wrong about tithing. While most widows, who are indeed widows, are receiving government checks that the members of the churches and others are paying for, so the churches may not need to subsidize them. Yes, Messiah drank wine.

Regarding Messiah freeing anyone from Torah, I must say that I disagree with you, Proto. He clearly said that not even the tiniest part of it would pass away until heaven and Earth passed away, and He lived out Torah before us.

As far as the churches selling on Sunday, I see no problem with this, because it is not Sabbath, and the church is not the Temple. If they are price-gouging, that is a whole other matter.

And I sure hope I am not coming across as critical, because I do believe you have some very legitimate concerns, Proto!

Regarding the wealthy coming to church, really, I think that is wonderful! The power of G-d is being evidenced if they are truly believers! But are they coming to the exclusion of the poor? If that is the case, there is a problem!

You bring up spiritual warfare. i think the very words turn many believers off, because there are so many fakers out there who love the term and make the church into a circus for the sake of it.

With regard to your son, I am sure your mother and stepfather meant well toward him, but grandparents do not normally have the right to baptize a grandchild without parental knowledge and support -- only in specific circumstances, as in the parents being absent and the child being old enough to know what is going on. -- And I am a grandparent. Furthermore, a grandparent ought to know not to confront their adult child in front of the grandchild or to ignore the adult child requesting to talk later.

But whatever you do, KNOW that this is not G-d's fault! None of this is! Separate Him and His Word from your experiences, because most of this has nothing whatsoever to do with Him.

There are good places of worship out there. Not perfect!! Just good places you can go and take the children, then teach them at home what is right and acceptable.

Give up on G-d because of what His kids do, and you will regret it, Proto.



Liveloved -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 3:20:17 AM)

protopath,

Where's Jesus in all of this? I hear your pain, your frustrations, your beliefs, and family concerns. But I don't hear you speak of Jesus.

Alot of 'church' can be wearisome when we don't know Jesus, the reason for believin'. But if you know Him, if He's seen you through all that you've shared, you have every reason to worship!

Jesus is the One who was crying as that woman spoke evil to your father.

Jesus is the One who cares what the church teaches and what we believe.

Jesus is the One who cares about you, your wife, and your two children.

Jesus is the One who loves you and wants you to love Him back even though your father died, the church fails you, and bad stuff happens.

It's all about Jesus. Fix your eyes on Jesus. Worship Jesus. And the things, all the things that you're troubled about will take their rightful place.

Believe! And press on brother! [:)] LL



mvic -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 8:29:14 AM)

Hi Protopath,

There's been too much hurt and pain in your life, and in your family. I pray that God helps heal this pain.

Let's look at the issues you can deal with, and those that are beyond your personal control.

Remember that first of all your relationship is between you and God. It's a personal relationship between you and your loving God who cares for you.

It has nothing to do with the church, the congregation, the pastor, elders or whatever. If somehow you feel you don't fit in the church you attend, if you feel the pastor (or someone in church) is a pain in the **** (and I've known many such people) just move to another church. And another, and another, until you find one that suits you and your family.

I've never thought much about rules such as tithing. I give what I can afford. And if the church doesn't like that, then I don't give at all. Anyway, let's leave all the issues you raised about church teachings and their rules - you can't change that; so don't worry about them.

Let's look at practical things that do affect you. I'm sorry your father said he hopes you experience hardship. All I advise you to do here is back off gently, forgive him and your mother in your heart, and pray for them. Is this too difficult? You bet it is ... but do it all the same. Do it for Jesus.

It was wrong, totally wrong, for your parents to take your six year old son to church, or baptise him (if that's what happened), without your and your wife's consent. I don't know how long ago that was. If it is recent you should tell them firmly, and politely, that they overstepped their authority. As a safeguard, do not leave your children alone with them until you're sure there's no repetition of such behaviour.

Grandparents mean well, and often step in when they think it's in their grandchildrens' well-being. But they should never do things without the parents' knowledge and permission. They would not have liked it had it been done to them in the past.

So where do you go from here ...?

First of all, discuss this matter with your wife. Tell her you wrote to this Forum. Show her the answers you received. Don't do anything without her knowledge and approval.

Pray together about it. As best you can, (and I know it's very difficult), forgive all those who hurt you in the past up to today. From the woman who was so cruel to your minister father all those years ago, to the hurt your church and your present parents have caused you. Forgive them all. Don't do this for me, or for you, or your wife ... do it for Jesus. Forgive them and hand over the pain and hurt to Jesus. Ask Him to help you and your family and to ease the pain.

Let the past go ... let the pain go ... move on. To a new church if needs be. To a new life where you and your wife are in control; with God's help.

And another thing ... give your wife some ice cream ... better than a fence post !!!

God bless you and yours.



protopath -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 7:44:45 PM)

I was all over the map last night in my anger and disgust.

Covaan: I appreciate your kind words, perhaps I was to forceful in my words about what is being taught. You see, I believe that Christians can disagree but remain Christians together. My wife's ex-mother-in-law is very Catholic, and we believe very little of what she believes, yet my family is so close to her and she accepts us without conditions. Light shines through her and she is one of my favorite people. She is glad that her grandson is being brought up in a Christian home. She also has been greatly hurt by church. She no longer attends as she did.

I'm not giving up on God, just trying to understand what His will is for me and mine. Because this isn't it. I'm also trying to figure out what I should do as regards to my parents, our relationship has degenerated into a fight for control. I'm worried that I may have to cut ties and respect them from a distance.

Please don't be offended at a personal question, are you Messianic Jewish?


Liveloved: You are right, I have allowed this situation to build and drive a wedge into my relationship with Jesus. This affects my ability to lead my family. It harms me. Most of all it harms Him.

mvic: I should forgive and will, and I have learned that beyond the initial "I forgive you." forgiveness is a process. I still struggle with forgiving the woman that cursed my father.

Actually what my father said was that he and my mother had been praying that my family would experience hardship. The thought process that goes with that blows me away.

My son has not yet been baptized and that is what we've been trying to prevent. At this point, since my father said during the discussion that he wanted my son to hear this, I wonder what, if any, contact we should have with them. Not out of anger towards my parents. But in protection of my son, so that I will have the respect in his eyes that he needs. I think there is a good chance that they will try to poison him against us.

My wife is reading this and has got some choclate moose tracks in the fridge, unless the boys snipe it first.



Liveloved -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 8:03:48 PM)

quote:

Actually what my father said was that he and my mother had been praying that my family would experience hardship. The thought process that goes with that blows me away.


Don't let it. What your father is really saying is that he loves you and wants God's best for you. That is really what I hear in that thought. And he thinks 'hardship' is the means by which God can do that in you/for you, KWIM? So take it in love. Love believes the best of others. He wants you to enjoy a relationship with Jesus and he thinks his way is the right way. So bless your father. Honor him. Show love to him. And you pursue a passionate relationship with Jesus that will lead your family and bless us all! [:)] LL



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 8:08:25 PM)

Proto, I lost my first husband, and while that is not losing a father, I believe I understand a little about your loss of your father on some level. I know that this is not what your post was about, but this is still an area of pain for you -- that religious people can be so horridly ugly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: protopath
. . . You see, I believe that Christians can disagree but remain Christians together. . . .
And that is the way it should be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: protopath
I'm not giving up on God, just trying to understand what His will is for me and mine. Because this isn't it. I'm also trying to figure out what I should do as regards to my parents, our relationship has degenerated into a fight for control. I'm worried that I may have to cut ties and respect them from a distance.
I also went through this. I ended up living over 2000 miles from them out of necessity. It is not that I recommend this; that is just how it worked out, and it was best in our case. I hope that you can talk to them and work out something better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: protopath
Please don't be offended at a personal question, are you Messianic Jewish?
I am Messianic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: protopath
Actually what my father said was that he and my mother had been praying that my family would experience hardship. The thought process that goes with that blows me away.
You know, we have a gracious and loving G-d. He does not answer such prayers that are not for the good of His people as they are requested. His answers to our prayers are for our eternal good. But you knew that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: protopath
My son has not yet been baptized and that is what we've been trying to prevent. At this point, since my father said during the discussion that he wanted my son to hear this, I wonder what, if any, contact we should have with them. Not out of anger towards my parents. But in protection of my son, so that I will have the respect in his eyes that he needs. I think there is a good chance that they will try to poison him against us.

My wife is reading this and has got some choclate moose tracks in the fridge, unless the boys snipe it first.

Your stepfather went over your head to insist that your son listen to what he had to say. Now that you know this is his attitude, you can counter that.

I hope that you and your wife will be able to determine what your boundaries are and be able to sit your parents down and help them to know what they are, too.

I guess I have to do it -- I recommend the book Boundaries.



still4gvn -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 8:12:18 PM)

Protopath: You were very young to loose your father. Sometimes, when we are little, our heart makes assumptions and conclusions that stay inside as we mature. Perhaps to a little boy in grief it seemed that the woman caused your father's death. Perhaps you need to speak forgiveness for that murder, because you experienced it as the murder of your father.

don't let grief be bitterness.

God bless. 4



tracydolls -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/4/2008 11:53:27 PM)

Go to Jesus and let Him guide you to the RIGHT Church.

Ask and it shall be given. Always forgive as soon as humanly possible.

Sometimes for myself, that can take days or weeks especially when I try to do it WITHOUT the Holy Spirit.

I have that struggle with family members. I understand.

I'll pray for ya.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/5/2008 7:53:12 AM)

The only way you are going to agree 100% of what a church stands for is...to start your own.

I don't agree 100% with my church but that doesn't change the fact that people want to serve God there and the basics are core doctrine.

If a church preaches there is another way to God other than Jesus Christ....run.

If the church proclaims the pastor is some holy hero above reproach....run.

If everything in the church is pointed toward growing the income of the church....run.

If Jesus Christ is not preached....run. If scripture is not part of the sermon....run. If there are more skits and plays and dance performaces and no sermons...run.

If you disagree with minor points...ask your pastor. Ya know....you could be wrong. Once in a while...the pastor might be wrong too. You'll never know...until you ask.

If the little things are enough to keep you out of church then...you will probably never find a church. Remember, the church is made up of people...just like you. Flaws and all. There is room for tolerance.



deermousie -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/5/2008 10:49:53 AM)

There are so many good responses to this. I'm sorry you've been through all this, Protopath. It's been a bear and no denying it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: protopath
one lady got angry and told my father she wished he would die.


What a horrible thing to have happen, on both counts. Devastating to you, a small boy who needed his father. And even though that woman didn't *cause* your father's death (and as a little guy, you didn't know that. How are you doing about it now?), it threw her vicious words back in her face in a way she couldn't miss. Has she been carrying her guilt all these years?

We're all such broken people... We are sinners that need tons of grace, and to be led to the truth when we miss it.

quote:

My wife and I married six months after our son was born. She is seven years my senior and I call her son by a previous marriage mine. My parents hated this.


Your parents have made some terrible choices. Do they ostracize you in any way now? How they treat your children dictates how much time and how guarded you have to be with them now.

And the hardship thing - I hear what they so awkwardly were trying to say but it came out horribly wrong. They love you and wish for you to have a better walk with the Lord - something we all need, not just you. We are Adam's fallen race. But they aren't real smooth, and all you heard was "we wish bad things on you." That's not what they meant (unless they are seriously mentally ill, which I doubt) but quite the opposite. They could use some Dale Carnegie skills.

1. Tithing was OT law, and not 10%, and most of it went for your own enjoyment.

The word "tithe" means "tenth" and in OT it was for support of the Levitic priesthood and the Temple. If you add up all the tithe and offerings it comes out to 23.3%, but some of it was voluntary (well, it was all voluntary, but God in the Book of Malachi was seriously ticked because people were robbing Him). The Apostle Paul encouraged various churches to scrape up offerings to help other churches in crisis (one was a famine), and people sent Paul money for his own needs as well as for suffering believers in other places.

quote:

We should now GIVE as we are led. Tithing is rammed down our throats so that we may build giant cathedrals, but we don't give to the poor IN the church.


I agree with you. Some preachers seem to talk of nothing but tithing, which is highly suspect to me. Don't they pay him? What about feeding the flock the pure milk and meat of Scripture? A good church will not only receive money to pay the light bill but give to the poor and to missions. All the churches I've belonged to (4 of them in 35 years, just so you don't think I church hop) have had money for members in emergencies (all the widows had pensions, but I'm with you on this) and sometimes for people off the street in emergency status.

quote:

4. Jesus freed us from the law, sin is what we know to be wrong before God. OT law is not directly applicable. We know what is wrong and right.


Right. Jesus freed us from the Law for salvation purposes. The Law still show us God's character and gives us the backbone for knowing right and wrong. The Sabbath was a picture of resting from having to work for salvation - we now receive it as a free gift.

quote:

5. Jesus took a whip to the people grafting money in the temple, yet most churches are selling church sanctioned mugs, tshirts, and books after the service in the lobby.


This bothers me, too. Let them sell their "Jesus junk" Monday through Saturday. Sunday is the Lord's Day, for thinking about Him and worshipping in fellowship to Him.

quote:

6. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, yet I see more lawyers and doctors and such in church than the poor.


1 Cor. 1 backs you on this, and yet there is room in the Church (the body of Christ, not just the building) for the rich, the wise and the strong. It's just that there aren't many of them percentage wise. Some churches might get more than their share while some get none. If doctors and lawyers go to church and know God, praise the Lord! It's better than they be damned. If status is causing the operation of the church to kiss up to them, the leadership is in failure to lead towards God.

quote:

7. Spirtual warfare is real, people experience demonic posession, we can help. Instead we give people, even children, pills but do nothnig to treat the root of the problem.


Yep. Freud did a good job cataloging symptoms, but his godless remedies smell like sulfur. Churches that don't recognize we're in a spiritual battle with not only forces of evil but the fallenness of our own selves aren't believing the Bible and are highly suspect in my eyes as a legitimate place of worship. If they don't believe the Bible, then what do they believe? Not the Bible!

quote:

I have many other issues with the church beyond this, but basically it seems more like a Bible-sprinkled social club than the church I read about in the NT.


I visited one of these churches once... the sermon was about Native American stories. Hey, that culture is heavy with demon possession, but the sermon held them up as models. They didn't talk about Jesus. We didn't let our kid go to Sunday School (pffft. No way they were getting their mits on her, so young) and we never went back.

There are churches that are mere social clubs, and to be avoided.

quote:

Not feeling Hebrews 10:25 right now. I need to find a real church first.

Anyhow, we haven't gone in a while. It was making my wife and I far to angry.


You have legitimate gripes. Now what are you going to do about it? You can hunt down a good Bible-teaching church or you can stay home, stew in your juices, and use it as an excuse to do your own thing and not join a fellowship as Scripture says to. Go do the right thing.


quote:

We have been preventing them from taking him to church to prevent a sneak-baptism.


This tells me you have major trust issues with your parents, and not just about baptism. For them to do anything behind your back is WRONG. You are the parent, not them. I'm glad you guard your kid from them; I would, too. Love your parents but don't leave them alone with your kids. This will cause a major fight, but they are the ones who aren't trustworthy with keeping the roles of parent and grandparent straight. Give them a chance to promise to do it right or dig their heels in so you know what to do. I'm glad you were sane and unsarcastic when you talked to them about this.

quote:


The discussion with my father happened infront of my six year old. After I had said we would discuss this later.


They are disrespecting you and making a point of it that your kid knows. Major bad. Now I'm getting really mad about this.

quote:

My wife is so mad she could chew through a fence post. I'm sick of this. I'm sick of false churches and false teachers and false doctrines.

Please help us deal with this thing.


Make sure you have Scripture to back your choices. Be sure you and your wife are in agreement. Be kind, be sane, and go do what you have to do. And go find a church (I go to a Presbyterian PCA church and this one church doesn't have these problems. I can't speak for other PCAs but you might want to look there). It's an absolute priority that your relationship with God isn't trashed because some people aren't doing it right. *You* do it right. Find the truth, reject the error, and don't go global on assigning error to everything when it needs to be specific.

God bless you and your family. I am praying for you today.



purplepearl -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/5/2008 11:07:43 AM)

I do mostly agree with SonInMe1. And I mostly agree with the points you made about the "problems" in the church.

I have to be honest with you and say that I think you are making churches your "Christ" - In essence you are expecting your church to fill your needs and lead you in the right direction 100% percent of the time. This is something only Christ can do. It almost appears that you expect to walk into Heaven once you walk into your church. The people in church are the exact same as the people not in church - thank goodness or no one would ever go. Nice people don't go to church and good people don't go to heaven. I think you really need to re-direct your purpose for church. It is suppose to be a place of spiritual enlightening. It is suppose to be a place where you receive some guidance and encouragement. Fellowshipping and Service is also a very important part of church. I feel like you expect to be spoon-fed theology and leave with a check-list for your life. You don't have to agree with everything that is said at church- just like you wouldn't in any other place. If fact if you do, then you are probably in big trouble because you would be looking to man for direction instead of our Lord. You should always be questioning your pastor because he is not divine.

Your time in church on Sunday with God should not be even close to the most spiritual time you spend with God. Your direction for your life should solely come from your personal relationship with Him.
I think we need to go back to the old saying "Ask not what your Church [country] can do for you -but ask what you can do for your Church [country]." If you have issues with the church, which you are 100% right on in my opinion, then get in there and change it. Start serving and making genuine relationships with other believers and impact their way of thinking.
I generally see new believers as the ones who should "take" from a Sunday service while the rest of the congregation should "give." I see you as in the place where you are still in need of "taking."
Everyone is at a different place in their spiritual journey, right or wrong, this should not impact your spiritual journey. You are allowing other people to control your faith. I think you need to humble yourself, seek God and allow others to make their own mistakes on their spiritual journey. You will make the most impact on your church and family around you by living as Christ lives instead of talking so much.



bluestone -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/5/2008 11:12:27 AM)

To the OP: You are right about so many things. Been there done that.
However, we are to fellowship with fellow believers. None of us are perfect.

That does not mean buying everything preached hook, line, and sinker.

Practice discernment, and daily dig out the root of bitterness that has grown. It will kill you spiritually.



truthrevealed -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/5/2008 5:25:19 PM)

purplepearl, EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!



RJR_fan -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/5/2008 6:41:52 PM)

quote:

My son has not yet been baptized and that is what we've been trying to prevent.


One reason we had our children baptized young -- as infants, after I embraced that position -- was in order to reject the Baptist habit of inducing experiences through hypnotic techniques ("every eye closed, every head bowed...") We gave them to God, then asked Him to reveal Himself to them in His own way. AND we immunized them against "altar calls." We're holding out for the real thing, and refuse to accept humanistic substitutes.

Baptism is valid, I believe, as an expression of the faith of the parents. But I share your hatred of unscrupulous emotional manipulation -- especially when it is my child that some third party is trying to brainwash.

I'll be praying for you. Look me up in a thousand years!



drussell52 -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/5/2008 6:48:06 PM)

Proto, you will be in my prayers and those of many here. The person who spoke of finding Jesus and a lot of wisdom as did others. I remind myself he had me and you in mind, when he hung on the tree for our sinful nature. I pray that in time you will find a fellowship where you can serve and be served, remain honest and opened..



KProto -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/6/2008 5:47:04 AM)

Hello, I am Protopath's wife. I couldn't really think of a snappy screen name so I hope he forgives me for stealing half of his. Original I know [8D]

He asked me if I would add to this thread because he is still confused about how to proceed with his parents and felt like he was trying to deal with so much in his mind all at once. Thank You so much for everybody's replies. You guys have really helped us both to start trying to figure out how to proceed with our relationship with God. It has been very hard for us to find any group of Christians we feel like we can open up to and really say what is on our mind because it has been so hard for us to be in Church.

There is so much more to all of this than could be put into one post. A little background on me. I'll try to make this short and the reason for the digression is that I'm coming at this situation with his parents from a completely different perspective. I was not brought up around here or in Church. My parents were poor. My dad was a severe alcoholic and was very abusive. My stepmother was very verbally abusive and my real mother left when I was 5. Met her later in life but she turned out to be very selfish and chases men, does drugs ect... so I don't have anything to do with her. I have been through being molested as a child and raped when I was a young girl. My brother and my half brother (from my mom) are both addicted to cocaine so I had to stop having anything to do with them for the safety of my children and my dad and my stepmom just could not stop being verbally abusive to me and did not really show interest in the children. We decided to stop having anything to do with them because my dad was threatening to shoot some guy one day and we felt they were unsafe. I had a relapsed thought of the time my dad held a gun to my head so we decided for the children it was best. Simply put..my family is gone. My husband tells me frequently how amazing it is that I'm reasonably normal.

My husbands family is completely different. They are achievers. They pride themselves on all the kids having gone to college and gotten superior jobs. They know the right people, they attend the right social gatherings and are very prominent in Church. You can imagine that when they found out that it was me he would have a child with out of wedlock that they were completely distraught. Of course we married and we love each other so much and have worked so hard to make things right, but this started a downward spiral of them not respecting us and feeling like they have to be on the defense of the family name in community and Church. Especially since in our area the community are the Churches. We live in a very small community and everybody knows everybody so our background together and my background story is very shocking to most people. And what I said so far is really just the tip of the iceberg on our story and our long walk back to the Lord and doing right things.

I say this because it's part of reason we have a hard time in Church. It goes great at first and we have the best of intentions and want to make it work for all of us. It's when we realize that some people may know something about us because the helped counsel his parents when they were so distraught over our union. They actually have tried to talk him into leaving me, and we really did have a very hard time the first couple years of our marriage. My husband and I used to argue very badly and they had a reason to be upset over us, but the fact that they practically announced it to all has really hurt us socially and I don't think they have ever really recovered because they continue to have so little respect for us. He and I have fully recovered and we have a stronger bond now than ever and it is because of our Lord that we have overcome so much together. We have honestly been through more in 5 years of marriage than most go through their entire marriage (a marriage counselor told us that once, I'll never forget it). I can say now that I am so proud of the man he has become so it really upset me when they said he is not a man. That's also not the first time they have said that. Sorry, sorry again digress (I'm bad about that)

My husband and I need to focus on what is best for our family and we are trying to come at this from a Christian perspective but we still have a lot of Christian growing to do and so far it has not gone well and we have little support because our ideals are so different from his parents in addition to other things that have been tied up in going to every Church we have been to so far. We are also dealing with issues of finding a safe place to really start to speak up about our past and our walk back to the Lord and how to proceed and learn and lead our children. We are very sound that Jesus need to be the focus no matter where we are. The problem is that we have not yet found a safe place in that talking about our ideas and our past will not upset his parents by having a negative effect on them. Image is very important to them and we have been trying to careful about what we say or how we conduct ourselves to the point that we feel restrained in our walk.


One person said that they agreed with my husbands theology points but that we should get in there and change it. Thing is...when he said that to his parents looking for guidance they got furious. Spreading that kind of talk all over the community would not bode well. So here we are. What do we do?


Our dilemma. His parents weren't just having a bad day and said something they maybe should not have said. They have actually been doing disrespectful things regarding our children a lot over the years. This is just the first time they have ever done it in front of our child. We have tried to talk with them before about boundaries with the kids and we tried to be very loving about it. It was actually kind of a scary thing because they are very intimidating. In their eyes we are wrong people because of our background together and my personal background and we really have no right to say anything about what they say or do because they are righteous and we are not. They refused to admit they overstepped and somehow we ended up apologizing and here we are again.

We feel like we have to come to some kind of terms about this with them because this type of behavior toward us has the potential to become very confusing now for our son since his dad opened this up in front of him. I actually bought our son a book (It's called Leading Little Ones to God..GREAT BOOK) when I found out that they had taken him up in front of the Church and made a profession of faith. The thing about that was that he was asking them questions about it the day before and we talked to them that night. They never told us anything. We would have been there if that's what he really wanted. We would have gladly talked to him about it and we feel like that was our place. We would have wanted to make sure that he really understood before he walked up to the front, but we didn't get that opportunity. They had an opportunity to tell us. They chose not to. When we found out this happened we didn't jump to conclusions we were very supportive our son because this IS important to us. We later, very carefully said "tell us everything! We are happy" and he repeated what they told him to say and said it's his spiritual birthday. He did not really seem to understand what he did so I bought the book and we told them we wanted to wait on Baptism. That's how this all got started.

His mom even told us that she told people at the Church and they are shocked that we are preventing him. That's one of the reasons we have so much trouble going to Church. She knows a lot of people from different Churches and she needs a lot of advice and support through trials with us and there have been many and even with trying to talk to them and really work things out there continues to be trial because there is always something about us that is upsetting to them. A lot of time people meet us and say they know his parents and we just get this feeling of dread and feel prejudged. That's not to say that she is a bad person or that his dad is a bad person. They do wonderful things in the Church and community. They just do not view us as proper and we have different views than they do. So as far a we can tell they cannot view us as being Christians so they don't come to us as one Christian to another.

We do want to find a Church home we just needed to decompress a little because we have tried many and we don't want to be Church hoppers. These types of things with them just keep cropping up with them and they treat finding a Church like finding a job. And when we do find one we are going to try then they are trying to figure out who they know there and we get nervous going into it.

So the doctrine is important for my husband and it is important for me too, but we understand that there is no way to agree with 100% of everything. We have just been burned and his parents are very tied up in this. We have to find a way to be able breathe a little and the big question is "how".

My husband has taken some time to cool off and was trying to lay out a plan of action to me tonight. I can really tell that he is trying to find a way to talk to them but not tell them specifically that felt that there was overstepping the boundaries. He said we have to be diplomatic because if we try to tell that we felt they were wrong in what they did (even if we don't use the word wrong and do it as lovingly as possible) they will reject our response and we cannot resolve this peacefully. I completely agree with him but I disagree that should not be upfront and completely open about our feelings towards this because we have tried implying before since we know the reaction. Forgiveness is not a problem. We know they were upset. We understand the reason they feel the way they do about us. We understand that they have completely different ideas and views and that's ok. We wish they could forgive us for our shortcomings however large or small they may be and work towards a better relationship but that's not up to us. We have just really been struggling in our walk with the Lord and our relationship in Church and even everyday life trying to care for our children as their parents because they are so wrapped up in this. I feel like if we don't be very honest and direct with them even if that means they won't have anything to do with us or if we have to tell them that we can't be around them if this continues any longer then our life will continue this way. The thing is, if we can't talk to them and get some real resolve then we are also worried about being able to trust them not to poison our son against us. I mean if they feel bold enough now to say those things in front of him then what will they say to him considering that they don't deem us worthy to help him with his salvation. We truly truly do NOT want our children to have the kind of confusion that my husband suffers with. They pushed him so hard growing up and now as an adult that it has literally driven him away from God. When he was younger they even kicked him out of the house one morning after he was working until 2am for not going to Church with them that morning. They are serious about being at Church.

We had to talk to our son about all of this. They left us no choice. We told him that we all love him very much and that his grandparents are just upset and we think different about some things and we also told him that no matter what he heard or what they may have told him that mommy and daddy care very much about his relationship with the Lord. It was something like that and he seemed to be so relieved. And that book that I bought for him. He really was not showing interest in reading this book with me before. He was pushing it away and rolling around and not listening. Since we had this talk and all this happened he has really turned on to reading this book every night. He answers all the questions and gives big hugs. He's even praying out loud with me now. It really makes me wonder if they were talking to him. I don't know. I'm just so happy he's responding. This latest blowout has been a nightmare and truly has felt like a breaking point for me and my husband. We have made some big mistake in life there is no denying that, but we are really trying and have come a long way to just sit in our home any longer and be upset because we can't stand up for ourselves and continue to hide our heads. It's gone so far now and so many people and all this constant disapproval. I'm not even sure how to begin to repair damage that's already been done. We certainly could not find every person who heard anything and give our account you know. Who knows if it will even stop. The only thing we can do is move forward but we are very confused as to how to stop this cycle to move forward.

That's the other perspective. I was not brought up with in a Christian home but this is really crazy for me. I'm very good at forgiveness. I have forgiven all who have harmed me but I do feel relieved that I no longer endure. I don't really understand all the hard feelings even after apologies but it's happening for some reason. I truly hope I helped bring some clarity for him and didn't digress too much (like I do, it's a character thing [8D]. And please don't get the idea that I loathe his parents. I really don't. I wish we could have an easier relationship. We both do. We appreciate all your prayers and advice and just that all of you have taken time and interest in reading and responding. It has truly helped.



RJR_fan -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/6/2008 6:26:25 AM)

Job's friends thought it was a good idea to hand out free advice.

God disagreed.

Well, maybe it's safe to share one thought -- the God who has begun a wonderful work in your family can be depended on to see it through. (see Phil. 1:19).

You are surrounded by people who are praying for you, and wish you well.



conrack50 -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/6/2008 6:32:13 AM)

Heavenly Father,
Along with this entire family, You know the story Father.
I ask that You show this entire family that it's not about them but it's about YOU Lord.
I ask this in Jesus Name, amen


Connie Lou



RJR_fan -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/7/2008 6:28:30 PM)

quote:

Go GREEN with my Soy Candles?


Soylent Green?[:D]



TheBibleTRUTH -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/7/2008 7:12:44 PM)

This might sound a bit crude, but please keep an open mind and always seek God for the appropriate answers to any of your questions. You don't have to listen to me as I am just a man speaking God's word, ultimately what you do is between you and God. I would like to make a suggestion though.

You need to put God first above everything else. If your family is getting in the way of your relationship and your walk with God then you need to cut ties with them, plain and simple. What is more important is that you love and serve God with all your heart and your parents are making it very difficult for you to live. Putting up with them is not being Christian, it's not helping you at all. They are also making your lives difficult, and you are called to live a quiet and peaceable life. Christ had some things to say about this:

Matthew 12:46-50
46) While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47) Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48) But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49) And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

You need to be with people that help you and your relationship with God and each other. Christ's mother and brethren stood against him and he rebuked the people who tried to point that out. The people that enhance your relationship with God and help you live at peace with God are your brothers, sisters, and mother. If your parents aren't doing this then it's better for you to not communicate with them. This is a part of putting God first.

Matthew 19:29
29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mark 10:29-30
29) And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30) But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

You see if you put God first in this area, you will be blessed one hundred fold. It says that the struggles of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the eternal weight of glory. You absolutely must put God first in every area of your life. This includes relationships with your family as well. Christ did not honor his flesh and blood family above God, so you shouldn't either. Do what pleases God and enhances your relationships with him and you will be rewarded.



As far as finding a church, just believe God and keep searching. God knows what you need and he is willing and able to supply it for you.

God bless you in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/7/2008 8:44:56 PM)

Kpro, thank you for giving us your "side" of the story. And thank you for paragraphing! [:D]

I sure hope you can find a solution. I had a difficult relationship with my parents, and the best solution was distance. Even when I continued going to their church in another city, they caused trouble, so that didn't work out, but in more ways than one. [:'(]

I hope that you find a solution that makes this whole thing just a distant memory.



Sonrise -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/7/2008 10:43:37 PM)

A couple of questions

1.) You mentioned that you feel the need to tell people in church about your past, why?
2.) You mentioned that your husband has "ideas" that he wants to share with a church; what are these ideas?
3.) You mentioned that your inlaws are gossips and have told the whole town your business and that's why you can't go to church; why not go to church in another town or just move? You're both grown-ups responsible to God each other and for your children, that's it. It sounds like way too much unnecessary drama, if possible move. We did, left Los Angeles for Greenville, SC and it was the best moved we made.

Hope all works out, Sonrise



protopath -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/7/2008 11:04:26 PM)

Thank you all for your responses.

Here is what we feel that God is leading us to do.

1. Reconnect with Him.

2. Set boundaries with my parents:
a. The children will not be going to church with them.
b. No discussions about this, or any weighted matter in front of them.
c. If these are not respected we will remove the children from the situation.

3. Look for a church that better fits what we believe. I'm literally going to crack open the phone book and survey on these questions:
a. Do you preach tithing or giving? (We feel this is a good barometer for the church, due to all its associated problems)
b. Do you believe that it wrong to drink alcoholic beverages? (Twisting of meaning of the Bible)
c. Do you sell things in the church lobby on Sundays? (Lack of respect)

4. If or until we can find a church that approaches that in #3, we will worship at home on Sundays with our children.

5. Possibly moving if it is God's will, we can't now, finances don't permit.

Also, I apologize for dredging up what happened with my father so long ago, that was not needed and I thought I had forgiven and moved past it.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Disgusted and Dejected (8/7/2008 11:19:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: protopath
4. If or until we can find a church that approaches that in #3, we will worship at home on Sundays with our children.


To the Protos:
If you are going to do this, you have to do it faithfully. No excuses. No "I'm too sick" or "I'm too tired." If you slack off, it will not be good. Your children will learn what you think of G-d and how important He is by what you do and by what you don't do.

I write this from my heart, Protos! And I write from experience!

When I was a child and we moved to where there was no church, my parents had good intentions to do this, but they soon let it slip. I knew what it meant. Oh, did I know! The lesson was clear.



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