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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:58:15 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1781
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I as a leader would NEVER bring a person's weight into a conversation about dress code or anything else. That would be a very unwise move. Stick to the Bible when resolving conflict and pray with all parties involved.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:00:54 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
I as a leader would NEVER bring a person's weight into a conversation about dress code or anything else.
Neither would I! Just trying to figure out this woman's motives...get into her head, if possible, and understand.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:02:49 PM
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ta_mosquito
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I suggest TELLING her (graciously, of course, but making it mandatory) to either change the dress code wording or change the requirements. Since she DOES make it a requirement, then that's what the paper should say. Period. Since you are in charge of the organizational part, I think this does fall on you more than on her husband.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:05:51 PM
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pbaribeault
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Whether you feel that the other elder can be objective or not, you need to have a conversation with him, hear him out, and speak your point of view. That's not fun, but it's got to be done. If he agrees with her completely and stands for her, and you just agree to disagree, that's fine, as long as you go through the process of being responsible co-leaders. Avoiding it helps no one.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:10:39 PM
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armydude
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Maybe a third (unaffected) party?
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:20:55 PM
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pbaribeault
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Yeah, a mutually respected neutral person might be handy in such a situation,
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:44:55 PM
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lightshineon
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I am sorry this woman is a legalist, beware of the yeast of the pharisees. This young church can,and most likely be destroyed if this legalistic attitude is allowed.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/1/2008 12:04:24 AM
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peace77
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quote:
I have considered the idea of a "uniform" of sorts for our worship team. (We do not have a choir...just three musicians, two lead singers and, until recently, the two young ladies that sign.) A uniform might consist of black pants/skirts and white button-up shirts/blouses, for example, and would be for both the men and women involved.
This "uniform" isn't going to work for the interpreters. Their shirt/blouse needs to be a contrasting color to their skin tone. For example, a fair skinned person needs to wear a plain dark color such as black or navy in order to contrast with her hands. A dark skinned person should wear a light or pastel color. White often reflects too much light and it can be difficult to watch an interpreter wearing white.
The "requirement" to wear a sweater or jacket in a hot room with no air conditioning is unreasonable.
A modest short or cap sleeve top should be acceptable.
If the woman making the requirement is concerned about perspiration stains showing, dress shields could be suggested, instead of jackets.
Does your denomination have regional leaders that could help your church?
Peace,
Anne
_____________________________
I GoodSearch for Deaf Missions.
Raise money for your favorite charity or school just by searching the Internet or shopping online with GoodSearch - www.goodsearch.com
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/1/2008 7:46:40 AM
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revbob4God
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Anne, Thank you for the goodsearch suggestion. Good to know. I will pass it on to Sylvia.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/1/2008 7:56:52 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peace77
This "uniform" isn't going to work for the interpreters. Their shirt/blouse needs to be a contrasting color to their skin tone. For example, a fair skinned person needs to wear a plain dark color such as black or navy in order to contrast with her hands. A dark skinned person should wear a light or pastel color. White often reflects too much light and it can be difficult to watch an interpreter wearing white.
The "requirement" to wear a sweater or jacket in a hot room with no air conditioning is unreasonable.
A modest short or cap sleeve top should be acceptable.
If the woman making the requirement is concerned about perspiration stains showing, dress shields could be suggested, instead of jackets.
Does your denomination have regional leaders that could help your church?
Peace,
Anne
Very helpful, Anne. And, no...we're a nondenominatinal church...just a rogue entity! Thanks for the practical advice!
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/1/2008 12:34:50 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
no...we're a nondenominatinal church...just a rogue entity! That is at least part of the problem - no overall accountability. Everyone needs to be accountable to someone. None of this "I answer ONLY to God" stuff. That makes little tyrants all over the place. If no one can effectively correct the department leaders or the board or the senior pastor, it is only a matter of time before something blows up or gets weird.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/1/2008 12:44:33 PM
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revbob4God
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quote:
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
Sylvia just loves that picture.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/3/2008 9:15:53 PM
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DaveW
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: revbob4God
Sylvia just loves that picture. Thanks! It needs to be updated. It was taken back in April.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/3/2008 9:35:28 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
I am totally confused ... which is easily done.
I can't understand why or how joining a worship team requires the signing of a contract. What does the contract say? What is it for?
Greetings,
In the church that I left… the agenda was for the worship team to cut a CD, so a certain few decided that a contract would be wise to make people keep their appointed times for practice and services etc etc…..
But the actual wording was anything but…meaning that you basically gave away any right to anything you contribute musically, which could be used for that agenda.
And that was no different then what I experience in the secular world, and is why God brought it my attention,
There was I time before I was saved when I answered an ad in the newspaper for a bass player needed; for a well established band,
So being young and naive at the time; I was called up and I went and there to audition and there were about 15 people in a basement with a lot of recording equipment, and we were told to plug in and just jam away as part of the addition, so I figured out what was going on…. and I pack up and left!
And I did in like manner in that Church also.
quote:
What does the contract say? What is it for?
Well page 1 was the one you signed; page 2 was attached later which one knew nothing about!
That’s why it’s done!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/4/2008 7:38:45 AM
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DaveW
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsyquote:
What does the contract say? What is it for? Well page 1 was the one you signed; page 2 was attached later which one knew nothing about! That is both illegal and unbiblical. Legally, any contract has to have ALL the language there BEFORE you sign it, or the entire contract is considerd null and void.
Biblically, scripture has nothing good to say anywhere about agreements made on false pretenses. As it is a legal document, it violates the "false witness" prohibition.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/4/2008 8:25:40 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16902
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsyquote:
What does the contract say? What is it for? Well page 1 was the one you signed; page 2 was attached later which one knew nothing about! That is both illegal and unbiblical. Legally, any contract has to have ALL the language there BEFORE you sign it, or the entire contract is considerd null and void.
Biblically, scripture has nothing good to say anywhere about agreements made on false pretenses. As it is a legal document, it violates the "false witness" prohibition.
Well also, signing a contract of which you do not receive a copy is not wise. If your copy does not match their copy because they added something, that's easy to prove.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/9/2008 5:46:02 AM
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DSmitty
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No disrespect intended, but seriously, what does the contract really amount to? No one is going to sue anyone in this situation. At least I hope not...
I really feel for you, Peter. It sounds like a big mess over a small thing. The little foxes spoil the vine. In reality it's not a small thing though when you're dealing with issues of control and attitude. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to figure out the woman's motives - let God sort that part out. But pray for her if you think it may be birthed out of insecurity on her part. It may be that she needs a real personal revelation of the love of God.
Personally I don't like dress codes, but I also believe in the Biblical admonition not to cause your brother to stumble. But I don't really agree with an earlier poster who said that even bare arms would cause men to stumble. If a man stumbles over bare arms he needs some hands laid on deliverance, if you ask me. No offense meant to that poster, but speaking as a man (which I am) I can honestly say that arms have never had that kind of an effect on me and I find it hard to believe that they do on most men.
I heard a funny story about a missions convention that was going on in the 70s during the whole Jesus movement where a lot of hippies were getting saved. Some of them young girls who were showing up to church in their mini skirts. There was a missionary from Africa present, and he was a missionary in a part of Africa where - well, suffice it to say they didn't view dress code the way we do here in our American cultural Christianity. Someone asked him what he thought of these young girls showing up at church in mini-skirts and he said, "Well, where I pastor I'd be happy if they wore anything at all."
One last thought: one problem that I've seen to be prevalent in churches is the tendency to treat volunteers as though they were on the payroll. In other words, if they're doing a service for free, you don't get to abuse them. But too often they are rebuked and condescended to in a manner that I personally don't feel is appropriate. It's like if you go out of your way to give me a ride across town and I start yelling at you for driving too slow. Some kind of display of gratitude would be a more appropriate response.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/9/2008 3:55:10 PM
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lightshineon
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I agree with most of your post DSmitty, but the word says also in Galations do not let anyone put leagelism (sp) on you. I mean first, jackets, next bonnets and on and on. She is being opressive to these children, and needs under control.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/9/2008 4:18:40 PM
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revbob4God
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Amen
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/9/2008 7:04:24 PM
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armydude
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From: NC
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And amen again!
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/10/2008 8:39:32 AM
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DSmitty
Posts: 52
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I agree with most of your post DSmitty, but the word says also in Galations do not let anyone put leagelism (sp) on you. I mean first, jackets, next bonnets and on and on. She is being opressive to these children, and needs under control.
Oh yeah... I'm with you on that. Did I say something that sounded different? If I did I don't think it was what I meant. I don't care much for legalism either. It's oppressive and it pretty much always fosters rebellion.
_____________________________
Men are God's methods. And while men are looking for better methods, God is looking for better men. -AW Tozer
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/12/2008 2:27:00 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3553
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Oh, sorry (LOL), maybe I misunderstood, which I do often. I was talking ( or misunderstanding) about the offense verse.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DSmitty
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I agree with most of your post DSmitty, but the word says also in Galations do not let anyone put leagelism (sp) on you. I mean first, jackets, next bonnets and on and on. She is being opressive to these children, and needs under control.
Oh yeah... I'm with you on that. Did I say something that sounded different? If I did I don't think it was what I meant. I don't care much for legalism either. It's oppressive and it pretty much always fosters rebellion.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/17/2008 12:53:36 AM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 227
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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This situation is a judgment call. Yet because of the controversy, there needs to be a meeting of the minds and a concensus as to whether and what any dress code should be.
I would strongly encourage you and any others who are impacted by this issue to request a meeting with the Senior Minister (and Elders or paid staff) and the worship leader to discuss the dress code, the worship leader's apparent attitude, especially towards the girl she seems not to like. Hopefully, in a spirit of Christ-like love and seeking to improve the understanding, attitude, chain of authority and responsibility and build everyone up in Christ.
I pray that you are successful in repairing this situation in a way that honors Christ and does not end up with anyone's feelings or spirit being wounded beyond repair.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 8/29/2008 10:34:47 PM
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VeronicaJoy
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I am on the worship team at church and also a church leader. I agree that we must dress appropriately, so as to bring glory to God, but not to be able to show your arms, this puzzles me. If seeing a women's arms causes a man to stumble then I believe he is the one who needs to deal with his problem. It is hot on the platform and a women should not have to be overdress.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 9/3/2008 5:34:04 PM
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revbob4God
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Veronica, my sister, this is a case in which the Music Minister appears to have major personality issues and appears to be extremely immature. I sense also the individual is very stuck on herself and may have inflated ego issues and has taken to bullying young people. I had thought the woman needs to be counseled and supervised by the Elders, and removed if her reign of terror continues, however that is just an old rural Ohio preacher talking
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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