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RE: Sin Nature - 7/30/2008 4:05:13 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3139
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Are you insinuating that you can freely choose not to sin anymore and cease to sin? Nothing insinuating about it, KJB! By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I can freely choose not to sin.
quote:
The Bible says people cannot avoid sinning (all are sinners and fall short) and they will still be held accountable for sinning (even though they are unable to be perfect). I suggest you review 1 John 3:4-10 before misstating the Bible's position on avoiding sin!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/30/2008 4:27:06 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Hello every1needsgod,
You say God would be unjust to require us to do things that we would be unable to do. Reality proves this.
As I ask before...
Would you hold a six month old accountable for not mowing the lawn when it is the whole family’s duty to mow as it comes to their turn?
Of corse not the infant is exempt from the command, so it would be for us if we could not avoid sin.
quote:
No it is not. Was it unjust for God to give the Jews the Mosaic law, knowing they wouldn't be able to fulfill it? God knew they could, HE expected them to.
He knew they wouldn't though.
Tell me, why would God be angry with anyone for not obeying if HE knew they couldn't in the first place?
quote:
No, it was not unjust. Why? Because God wanted to basically show the Jewish people that they are unable to save themselves through good works, because there is no good in us. No, God wanted them to walk by faith, after the spirit of the law.
However, they were stuborn and insisted to walk after the flesh, attempting to gain righteousness by works of the law through the flesh.
Romans 9:31 But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
However, the scripture embraces everyone in a common subjection to be under disobedience & unbelief by making the law known, so that the promise through faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who will believe. (Galatians 3:22)
(reference Romans 11:32)
before the coming of Christ, they were guarded under Law, having been embraced in that common subjection to the law which is meant to direct to the faith that is being revealed in Christ. (Galatians 3:23)
If Israel had followed after a Law of righteousness, why or how did they not arrive at the righteousness of which they thought they were following after?
Because the Law that they followed was not the spirit of the law, not the law of "liberty".
quote:
Our nature is utterly sinful, and if it weren't, we would be able to fulfill the Mosaic law with no problem, and it would also be possible to live sinless lives, but as we know, that is an impossibility We may fulfill the Mosaic law if we cjoose, however, we always choose not to.
You must not know that sin is always a choice.
If you knew that, you couldn't say that it is imposible. For sn imposibility can not be chosen.
quote:
Why? Our nature is utterly sinful.
So God gave the law basically to say to the Israelites, "See you cannot save yourselves, but I will." That is not the reason which the Bible gives:
Galations 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the descendant should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
The law exists for the reason of making unlawful effections to be evidently unlawful. It made seperation from God to be evident to us by that which is good(the law);
In other words, the commandments exists so that my unlawful effections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commandment. Romans 7:13
The law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ '(Galatians 3:24-25).
''they refused to have faith, but only works of Law' through the flesh. They refused to see that the law should have lead them to faith as a ''schoolmaster' '(Galatians 3:24-25)
So that those who follow after the law of righteousness, the spirit of the law, they may recieve it by seeking it by faith(Rom 9:30-31 & Heb 4:2) so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in them who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:4)
quote:
So the prophets prophesied a Savior who is to come, and that is Jesus, who would save us from our sins, that which we couldn't do ourselves through "good" works, because there is no good in us. Actualy, it is because we wouldn't do ourselves through faith.
Please, tell me, how is guilt ever from an inability?
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/30/2008 4:45:45 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
Status: offline
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quote:
Please, tell me, how is guilt ever from an inability?
Diolectic:
My respect for you is increasing daily. This statment is absolutely profound. I thought about how to elaborate on this, but I do not believe any amount of "elaboration" would do justice. I pray all here ponder on this. Guilt does not exist with an inability, for inability nullifies accountability.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/30/2008 4:49:18 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
Please, tell me, how is guilt ever from an inability?
Diolectic:
My respect for you is increasing daily. This statment is absolutely profound. I thought about how to elaborate on this, but I do not believe any amount of "elaboration" would do justice. I pray all here ponder on this. Guilt does not exist with an inability, for inability nullifies accountability.
I wonder if the disciples felt any guilt when the Lord asked them to pray but they were unable. I think I would have. But, hey, that's just me. Some folk just don't worry their head with failure through inability to hit the mark.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/30/2008 5:15:58 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletchquote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgodquote:
Please, tell me, how is guilt ever from an inability? Diolectic:
My respect for you is increasing daily. This statment is absolutely profound. I thought about how to elaborate on this, but I do not believe any amount of "elaboration" would do justice. I pray all here ponder on this. Guilt does not exist with an inability, for inability nullifies accountability. I wonder if the disciples felt any guilt when the Lord asked them to pray but they were unable. I think I would have. But, hey, that's just me. Some folk just don't worry their head with failure through inability to hit the mark. Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
HE found them sleeping for sorrow, Luk 22:45
The answer is in the next verse:
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
It is because they were still going about in the flesh.
Not by faith, not by the spirit.
I will agree with inability of the flesh, Paul speakes of that in Romans 7, however, there is no inability/disability/incapability to choose to walk after the other which is able.
Fact is, all mankind has ability by choosing faith to walk after spirit of the law
With your inquiry, are you implying that there is be guilt from an inability/disability/incapability?
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/30/2008 10:43:27 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1676
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Diolectic,
quote:
It is unbiblical because you said ..."There is a reason that what comes out is unclean........because it comes from a naturally unclean heart."
Hearts are not "naturally unclean"
That is unbiblical.
Wow!
Lets try it again;
21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
I suppose all of these issues come from within clean hearts?
the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption.............into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Creation was subjected to futility........as slaves to corruption.
The hearts of slaves to corruption are clean?
Corruption is not clean.
and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Is there a reason God cleans hearts by faith if they are already clean?
quote:
My responce is the reason What makes a man unclean is what he touches.
Ok, lets go with your response.
Are mothers considered unclean? Fathers?
You pointed me to OT Scripture earlier with this comment, quote:
What makes a man unclean is what he touches. Read Leviticus.
Here is a portion in Leviticus 12;
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
What would you say in that text stands out like a gigantic light bulb? I can tell you. 
Would you say the infant that comes out of an unclean Israelite woman remains clean since it touched her?
What would you say about those whose hearts have been purified by faith that have an infant?
I would say that God considers the parents clean.
And if the infant is held by an unbelieving grandparent are the grandparents considered clean?
If you have a believer and an unbeliever married, and they have a child and the unbeliever touches the child it now makes it unclean?
What are you getting at with this "touching unclean things" point?
quote:
The Bible says What makes a man unclean is what he touches.
Hearts are naturaly clean and we defile them, that is what makes us guilty.
If they were naturally unclean, we'd be inoccent.
Can you show me where all hearts are naturally clean?
quote:
Mark 7:9 is about the jews made traditions that make the comandment of God to be unaplyable, they made a loop hole.
But the point that matters is that they were setting aside the commands of God.
It does not really matter why they did it or exactly who did it.
Any person to set aside His commands is evil.
The same applies to you and myself. We have also set aside the commands of God. So what does that tell us....that we are better than the Jews that did it for some traditional reason?
Jesus was bringing the problem to a base point. He may certainly have been speaking to Jews but does the point apply to others? They certainly do. Because no one has kept the commands of God and all are guilty.
What was the reason? Traditions?
Mark 7;
6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
Yeah thats right. It was prophesied about those hypocrites....their hearts were far away....their worship was vain.....because they let go of the commands of God.......
It applies to anyone that puts aside the commands of God.
Jesus brings the matter to the point of WHY people lay aside the commands of God.....Jew or Gentile.
Their hearts are far away.
Look at how He explains it to them and then watch how He brings the entire issue to the heart from within man;
Mark 7;
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother.
13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
And on to;
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
It is speaking about disobedience in any way......laying aside the commands of God. The evil is rooted in the human heart.
quote:
As my example before shows, Lucifer. If his sin was only dorment in his heart until he did sin, he wouldn't have been perfect as the Scriptures describe.
That applies to Lucifer.
If you are saying all infants are born perfect.....why would they sin?
quote:
Fact is that we fill our hearts witn sin, then we defile ourselfs with that sin which we put in our hearts. The heart doesn't come with sin to start wth.
Why do all people fill their hearts with sin? Where are the ones that do the exact opposite?
Why does Scripture say that God has shut up all men in disobedience?
I posted;
quote:
The baby that has not yet sinned is just as sick as the adult that has already grown up and sinned.
If the baby is given the time to grow, I can assure you the creature will sin.
Its heart is no different than all the other babies that grow up.
You respond;
quote:
Did you not read any of my posts?
I already explaind this.
The answer is in my opening post, you can not refute that, it refutes what you say.
Yes, I read your posts.
Is this what you are talking about?......
quote:
To call ones nature by the fruit he bears is like calling a tree that bears apples an "apple nature"
Nature in the most basic sence serves purpose. The nature in the most basic sence of a thing is what it is suposed to do.
Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to grow and bear fruit.
I dont have a problem with saying humans have a human nature.
Why dont you do me a favor and clarify so I can refute or not refute?
quote:
God subjected creation to futility & the bondage of corruption before the fall of Adam.
Before the fall.....after the fall......?
Creation was subjected.......and in bondage to corruption.
quote:
The term corruption has nothing to do with sin or the so calles sin nature. The corruption means decay & the vanity means temporaryness.
I never liked mobsters and their decay. LOL 
quote:
The body we have now was never mean to be eternal.
If we were "slaves to corruption" We are to choose whom we yield our selve to obey.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
quote:
Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent. The lineage of cain is unrighteous: the lineage of Seth is righteous.
I thought everybody was born innocent?
quote:
Did you not read the explaination which I gave to the verse?
Re-read Post #4 and try to refute that, otherwise, stop using it as an excuse for sinning
I dont want to re-read post 4.
You can clarify it though if you want.
I say by nature I sinned.
quote:
Are you saying that Jesus remained sinless only because HE is God?
That would mean our standard is unjustly too high.
Standards are to be attainable.
I say the standard is perfect and not too high.
The standard is good right where its at......high.
I say you are too low.
quote:
Jesus did not remain sinless only because HE is God. HE remained sinless only because HE loved His Father, which is how we are to remain sinless.
quote:
God would not be good if HE would condemn us for that which can not be avoided. You claim that sin is inevitable.
Sin, in order for it to make one guilty must be able to be avoided.
Well then why have you not avoided it? Is it that you do not love the Father?
quote:
God would not be good if HE would condemn us for that which can not be avoided. You claim that sin is inevitable.
Sin, in order for it to make one guilty must be able to be avoided.
Who says?
I say God is good.
I guess we could go on for a long time with this debate.
Let us put this to rest once and for all.
These are your words from what you said this earlier;
quote:
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things.
Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
Here what is written;
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Do you notice the "sinful nature" part of the text?
Do you still conclude people do not have sinful natures like apple trees dont have apple natures or whatever that was all about?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/30/2008 11:17:42 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1676
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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evry1needsgod,
quote:
I do not disagree with any of this, but this does not prove we are totally and completely depraved in our sin. Just because the Bible says that all will sin, DOES NOT mean we have no choice and can not help it. It simply means everyone will sin. Nothing more, nothing le4ss. Stop adding Calvinism to that.
Is that a trick comment? Just because the Bible says everybody will sin does not mean everybody will........but they will!
quote:
Same as above. It is true that everyone sins, but the Bible does not teach we are totally depraved at the second of our conception.
The Bible is clear that all people will sin. Why is it? Is it because people will not sin?
I have a hard time understanding what you are saying.
All people will sin because they are depraved. No one will avoid sinning unless I suppose they die before they sin. It still does not mean people are born with clean hearts.
The reason people will naturally sin is because it is their nature to naturally do so.
quote:
These 2 phrases are KEy to thiis topic. Let me ask you a question. Are there things God CAN NOT do? If you say no, you 'e wrong. God can not condradict His own Nature.
He also can not break promises and convenants He has made with us.
God has promised us a free-will, and He has also promised us fair JUSTICE.
I like what Diolectic said...
Oh no......not the ever so powerful never ending free-will preaching again. 
Where exactly did He promise free-will?
Here;
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
I think if you are seeking His justice you are seeking the wrong thing.
I think the right thing to be seeking is His MERCY.
quote:
Has God defined justice, in Scriptures mind you, as being unfair, one-sided, and helpless? Has God given us rights/choices by which He holds us accountable? Or is it a God-only institution meant only for God to require something of you without giving you the opportunity to prevent? This is not the God He has promised us to be in Scriptures. This sounds more like a Hitler or Stalin than a loving, perfect, and fair God.
But this is what the LORD Almighty says:
"They may build, but I will demolish.
They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.
5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, 'Great is the LORD -even beyond the borders of Israel!'
quote:
It is my opinion that a loving, fair, judicial God of this Universe would not require something of you of which He has not made a way to excape, and THAT IS SCRIPTURE (although a bit out of context with the topic at hand). This opinion is backed by PLENTY of Scripture, so it is not a mere selfish bias on my part. I do not mean to tell God who and what He needs to be. God has the right to do anything, as long as coincides with His Nature and covenants with man, and it is that Nature which I believe controdicts total depravity.
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
quote:
Do YOU believe God could do this? If so, you make God out to be the biggest jerk and tyrant this universe will ever witness, and God promises to treat us with love and respect. That is not love my friend. God judges us by OUR ACTIONS accordingly. He does not punish you for something He made you do. Can you find THAT in Scripture?
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 8:04:59 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletchquote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgodquote:
Please, tell me, how is guilt ever from an inability? Diolectic:
My respect for you is increasing daily. This statment is absolutely profound. I thought about how to elaborate on this, but I do not believe any amount of "elaboration" would do justice. I pray all here ponder on this. Guilt does not exist with an inability, for inability nullifies accountability. I wonder if the disciples felt any guilt when the Lord asked them to pray but they were unable. I think I would have. But, hey, that's just me. Some folk just don't worry their head with failure through inability to hit the mark. Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
HE found them sleeping for sorrow, Luk 22:45
The answer is in the next verse:
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
It is because they were still going about in the flesh.
Not by faith, not by the spirit.
I will agree with inability of the flesh, Paul speakes of that in Romans 7, however, there is no inability/disability/incapability to choose to walk after the other which is able.
Fact is, all mankind has ability by choosing faith to walk after spirit of the law
With your inquiry, are you implying that there is be guilt from an inability/disability/incapability?
It seems very normal, as your reply seems to imply, for there to be guilt for inability, disability, or incapability when told to do something by God. That which should have been a simple choice before the fall is often beyond us but that doesn't make us any the less gulity for not complying.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 9:22:10 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
It seems very normal, as your reply seems to imply, for there to be guilt for inability, disability, or incapability when told to do something by God. That which should have been a simple choice before the fall is often beyond us but that doesn't make us any the less gulity for not complying. There is inability, disability, or incapability, only in the flesh, but that does not matter because all mankind are able/capable by faith, after the spirit.
The guilt of man for their incapbility is only because they insist to do all things after the flesh and refuse to have faith to be able to walk after the spirit.
I agree that their is guilt when the inability is brought on by yourself as I just stated above.
Example:
A drunk driver is incapable to control a car when driven. He is guilty for that because he refused to stay sober to drive and inssisted to drive drunk, he brought it on by himself.
However, we do not have any inability, disability, or incapability which we brought on by ourselves.
Y'all are saying that we are incapable for something which we did not bring on ourselves, sin nature. Therefore, you make mankind inoccent.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 9:26:23 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Prov 21:4a haughty look, a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
Prov 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin:
Rom 14:23b whatever is not of faith is sin.(choosing or refusing to have faith, nut inability)
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
1John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:
Sin is fruit from giving to ones effections, from that which one is rooted in.
All men are either rooted in the world & themselves or in Christ, their effections are eather on the world, self, or Christ.
To call ones nature by the fruit he bears is like calling a tree that bears apples an "apple nature"
Nature in the most basic sence serves purpose. The nature in the most basic sence of a thing is what it is suposed to do.
Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to grow and bear fruit.
Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love.
To know Jesus is to love Him.
One who doesn't know God can only put hs effections on himself &/or the world, therefore, he will naturally sin.
A better way to explain "sin nature" is this:
When one does not know the right answer, he will naturally get the question wrong. So it is with our nature, if one does not know/love Christ, he will naturally sin.
Another example is this:
Do you try not to cheet on your wife?
No, there is no need to "try" because you naturaly don't cheet on your wife because you love her.
You naturaly sin because you love yourself, the world or sin, However, if you love the one who keeps you from sin and shows you the truth, you would naturaly not sin.
The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections and inclinations so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.
John 15:4b ...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Romans 11:16b ...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...
While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.
One is born selfish and in reliance on the knowlege of God, not born with a sin nature.
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has his own self as his root. Or he may also be worldly, for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.
Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.
What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
James 1:24 for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what kind he was.
What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant, it will always have a plant nature no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.
What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.
Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.
fact is that the Bible proves that guilt from sin is always from intention, willfull, & volitional disobediance against known cammands, laws, and concience.
1 Sin is a choice.
2 Sin is the fruit of a kind of chosen way of being.
3 Sin can not be inherited.(it is not a genetic trait or a substance to be carried in the blood)
4 No one can be guilty of another's sin.(The sin of another(Adam) can not corrupt anyone else but the one who sinned.)
5 Guilt is only charged at ones first accountable sin.
6 All mankind only dies spiritualy(severed relationship with God) for his first accountable sin.
7 Mankind dies physically because we are not eating from the Tree of Life(that is why Adam died physically) Flesh was never intended to be eternal. Plant and animals die with out sin, therefore physical death is not from our own sin, it is from Adam's expeltion from the garden, away from the Tree of Life.
Guilt can not be & is not charged of an inability/incapability.
Commone sence and justice tproves that if sin is not a choice, but something we must do and is unavoidable, then nobody is guilty, or chgarged with disobediance/rebelion.
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Some may ask:
Do you need to teach a child to lie? Do you need to teach a child to share? Do you need to teach a child to respect?
These are according to knowlege.
Are you sugjesting that ones nature is because they don't know any better?
According to this, nature stems from unlearnedness.
Therefore, if you teach one to always do the right thing, you have just changed his nuture.
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We need a saviour because every one chooses to sin.
However, no one has to.
We are fallen of ourselves, not because of Adam.
We corrupt ourselves, Adam did not.
An infant is born with a human nature, sinless(with no law, therefore, no sin), innocent, with no conscience(a conscience is learned).
If a "newly accountable child" does not have eternal life before he/she becomes accountable, a child born and brougt up not knowing God, he/she will continue to live according to the flesh.
However, On the other hand, a child born brought up knowing Christ, which is eternal life, and becomes accountable for its own actions will be able to follow after the spirit that the righteous requirements of the Law would be fulfilled because of his love for God(Rom 8:4, Gal 5:16)
Good post. "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." But unfortunately, man's sinful nature wants to take credit for his belief in God. That leads to the Arminian theology that man decides from his sinful nature to accept God which is an oxymoron. Only the transformation of the heart and mind by the Holy Spirit can bring one into belief in God.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 9:30:43 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Y'all are saying that we are incapable for something which we did not bring on ourselves, sin nature.
I have a friend with cerebral palsey. You can only imagine his limitations. It's not his fault and he can do nothing about it. But if he managed to get behind the wheel of a car he would be held guilty of any damage, loss of life or harm he caused.
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Therefore, you make mankind inoccent.
Perhaps I misundestood something, but I don't understand what you meant by that. If I was born with a sin nature, God's demands are no less than before the fall - which was the fault of the corporate head of mankind. He created man without sin because that is His standard - and His character doesn't change, even if all of mankind became depraved as a result of Adam (which we did). From that point on, all mankind deserved only eternal separation from God. It is only through God's grace that we can move from the state of spiritual death to eternal life.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 9:45:00 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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We were all born guilty even though we didn't choose to be born. And we have to deal with it just like a person born with a disability has to deal with his disability. But because of man's pride, he wants to decide what's fair and unfair. He thinks he shouldn't be faulted if it wasn't his choice to sin. Not so says God. The potter is the Creator and it's his right to mold out of the same lump of clay things for noble purposes and things for common use.
So as Jesus explains in the parable of the worker:
1) The employer , not the employees, has the right to hire and fire anyone he chooses for whatever reason he chooses. And so does God.
2) The employer doesn't hire everyone qualified for the job. And neither does God.
But man's wisdom is all about me. God's wisdom is all about God. humans say; "That's not fair." It should be my choice to decide if I get into His kingdom." But God says; "He who wants to be first will be last."
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 10:14:42 AM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Good morning Diolectic
Did the Apostle Paul have a sin nature after receiving the Holy Spirit?
Peter
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 10:55:29 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1065
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Good morning Diolectic
Did the Apostle Paul have a sin nature after receiving the Holy Spirit?
Peter
Let me answer that YES
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 2:26:46 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBondquote:
It is unbiblical because you said ..."There is a reason that what comes out is unclean........because it comes from a naturally unclean heart."
Hearts are not "naturally unclean"
That is unbiblical. Wow!
Lets try it again;
21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
I suppose all of these issues come from within clean hearts? Yes, it is we who fill itwith defiling things.
That is how we are responcible and become guilty.
How do you supose mankind is responcible & guilty if our heart comes pre-defiled?
quote:
the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption.............into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Creation was subjected to futility........as slaves to corruption.
The hearts of slaves to corruption are clean?
Corruption is not clean. This coruption is decay, not anything which defiles us.
Our bodies begin to decay as soon as we are born or stop growing.
Colos 2:22 Which all are to decay with the using...
It means to not last, that which is coming to an end.
quote:
and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Is there a reason God cleans hearts by faith if they are already clean? I'm not saying that they are already clean, I say that we fill our own hearts with all uncleanness.
Mark 7:19 Because it enters not into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the drain, purging all foods?
The defilment must come into the heart, then it will come out.
From out of the mouth, the heart speaks.
quote:
My responce is the reason What makes a man unclean is what he touches.
Ok, lets go with your response.
Are mothers considered unclean? Fathers?
You pointed me to OT Scripture earlier with this comment,
quote:
What makes a man unclean is what he touches. Read Leviticus.
Here is a portion in Leviticus 12;
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
What would you say in that text stands out like a gigantic light bulb? I can tell you.
Would you say the infant that comes out of an unclean Israelite woman remains clean since it touched her? It is the blood which makes unclean, not the newborn.
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What would you say about those whose hearts have been purified by faith that have an infant?
I would say that God considers the parents clean. I wasn't to say the Old testiment rituals still apply today.
I was merely saying that what ever is unclean, when it is touched makes that one who touched it unclean.
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And if the infant is held by an unbelieving grandparent are the grandparents considered clean?
If you have a believer and an unbeliever married, and they have a child and the unbeliever touches the child it now makes it unclean?
What are you getting at with this "touching unclean things" point? When I say touch it, I mean recieving it into ones heart, choosing to let it stay there.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: ' adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatered, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries and the like'…
We defile our hearts by choosing to let this list in Galatians 5:19-21 come in ans stay in our hearts. If adultery resides in your heart, then it will manifest by coming out.
From out of the heart a man spesks(Luke 6:45)
If we envy the results of someone elses business, we have put this in our hearts and it manifests itself in the flesh.
What about selfish ambitions? Are the ambitions defiling your heart? It's okay to have desires of the heart, but the selfish ambitions prove a worldly heart.
Daniel, in a rich, wealthy kingdom of Babylon, did not have these things in his heart. He replaced them with the Lord. Daniel chose not to let Babolon defile him.
He. Not just the food, the wine and the riches of the kingdom, but all that was going on in Babilon.
I say to you this day, purpose in your heart, not to defile it with the things of the world.
(Based on a sermon by Matthew Gillogly)
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The Bible says What makes a man unclean is what he touches.
Hearts are naturaly clean and we defile them, that is what makes us guilty.
If they were naturally unclean, we'd be inoccent.
Can you show me where all hearts are naturally clean? Can you show me where all are born with unclean hearts?
I'm not claiming hearts are clean, but that we are not born with unclean hearts, but we make them unclean.
That is how we become guilty.
If we were that way to sart with, how would the guilt be valid?
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Mark 7:9 is about the jews made traditions that make the comandment of God to be unaplyable, they made a loop hole.
But the point that matters is that they were setting aside the commands of God.
It does not really matter why they did it or exactly who did it. The question of why gets to the heart of the matter.
As you even claim, the heart of the matter is that we have a sin nature, and that is why.
I reject that reason.
I say the reason is because we choose to.
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Mark 7;
6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
Yeah thats right. It was prophesied about those hypocrites....their hearts were far away....their worship was vain.....because they let go of the commands of God.......
It applies to anyone that puts aside the commands of God.
Jesus brings the matter to the point of WHY people lay aside the commands of God.....Jew or Gentile.
Their hearts are far away. According to you, they don't have any choice in the matter, because their hearts are defiled in the first place, they are only doing what is natural, they can't help it.
You caim they can't help it by saing that we have an inability do do what is right.
quote:
Look at how He explains it to them and then watch how He brings the entire issue to the heart from within man;
Mark 7;
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother.
13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
And on to;
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
It is speaking about disobedience in any way......laying aside the commands of God. The evil is rooted in the human heart The question is how did those thing get in the heart, we were not born with them there.
We put them there &/or we let them stay there once we become aware of them.
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If you are saying all infants are born perfect.....why would they sin? Becasue they choose to.
Is sin not a choice?
I would say that infants sin because they choose to.
I am not talking about infant before the age of accountability.
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Why do all people fill their hearts with sin? Where are the ones that do the exact opposite? Because we choose to according to our effections. That which we choose to put our affections on will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your choice of affections. Consequently, if you choose to love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you will not consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your choice of effections so that you only do what you choise to have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.
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Why does Scripture say that God has shut up all men in disobedience? I already covered this:
The scripture embraces everyone in a common subjection to be under disobedience & unbelief by making the law known, so that the promise through faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who will believe. (Galatians 3:22)
(reference Romans 11:32)
before the coming of Christ, they were guarded under Law, having been embraced in that common subjection to the law which is meant to direct to the faith that is being revealed in Christ. (Galatians 3:23)
If Israel had followed after a Law of righteousness, why or how did they not arrive at the righteousness of which they thought they were following after?
Because the Law that they followed was not the spirit of the law, not the law of "liberty".
The law exists for the reason of making unlawful effections to be evidently unlawful. It made seperation from God to be evident to us by that which is good(the law);
In other words, the commandments exists so that my unlawful effections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commandment. Romans 7:13
The law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ '(Galatians 3:24-25).
''they refused to have faith, but only works of Law' through the flesh. They refused to see that the law should have lead them to faith as a ''schoolmaster' '(Galatians 3:24-25)
So that those who follow after the law of righteousness, the spirit of the law, they may recieve it by seeking it by faith(Rom 9:30-31 & Heb 4:2) so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in them who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:4)
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Why dont you do me a favor and clarify so I can refute or not refute? To cairify, you say that sin is the root, our sin nature, we have a pre-defiled heart.
I say that which we choose to put our affections on is the root that produces the fruit of sin.
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God subjected creation to futility & the bondage of corruption before the fall of Adam.
Before the fall.....after the fall......?
Creation was subjected.......and in bondage to corruption. Do you say that God subjected the world to moral corruption after the fall?
I have shown that HE did it before.
The corrupion is decay, it means to not last, that which is coming to an end.
This corruption does not effect us moraly or spiritually, but you say that it does.
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The term corruption has nothing to do with sin or the so calles sin nature. The corruption means decay & the vanity means temporaryness. I never liked mobsters and their decay. LOL Wrong definition of corruption.
You think it means Moral corruption, depravity; wickedness; perversion or deterioration of moral principles; loss of purity or integrity.
Why would God subject His beloved creation to that?
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Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent. The lineage of cain is unrighteous: the lineage of Seth is righteous. I thought everybody was born innocent? I didn't mean that their nature is unrightouse, I meant that they all fallowed their father's example.
Fact is everybody is born innocent, how could one be born guilty if they never chose wrong?
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I say by nature I sinned. IOW, you can't help it, you were born that way, it's how you are created, you can't choose to do anything contrary of sin, sin is inevitable, sin is unavoidable, you must sin, it's natural to sin, your not going against anything when you sin, it's what is expected...ect...
Where is your responcibilty, your guilt, your choice in the matter?
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quote:
Are you saying that Jesus remained sinless only because HE is God?
That would mean our standard is unjustly too high.
Standards are to be attainable. I say the standard is perfect and not too high.
The standard is good right where its at......high.
I say you are too low. What do you mean, I am too low?
I mean that if a standard is unatainable, then it is unjust.
You must be denying that.
I say the standard is attainable for justice sake, but no one ever chooses to reach the standard.
You say that we can't even choose to reach it.
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God would not be good if HE would condemn us for that which can not be avoided. You claim that sin is inevitable.
Sin, in order for it to make one guilty must be able to be avoided. Well then why have you not avoided it? No one chooses to avoid sin just as I chose not to.
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Is it that you do not love the Father? Isn't that the reason why we all sin, even as Christians?
We cjoose our way over HIS way, this is not loving HIM.
How els would you explain it?
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God would not be good if HE would condemn us for that which can not be avoided. You claim that sin is inevitable.
Sin, in order for it to make one guilty must be able to be avoided. Who says? Commone sense & realty!
Would anyone be good for condemning someone for that which can not be avoided?
That is equivalent yo punishing your son or breathing, for breathing is unavoidable.
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I say God is good. Yah, but your theology portrays HIM as a sadistic tyrant.
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Let us put this to rest once and for all.
These are your words from what you said this earlier;
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People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things.
Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
Here what is written;
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing.
20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. Here is a better way to understand what you quoted:
14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to my own unlawful effections.
(this verse is key to understand the following verses)
Romans 6:16-20, Galatians 5:17b
15 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate
James 1:8
16 But if I do what I don't prefer, I am actually agreeing with the requirements that they are good.
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.
Romans 7:5&20
18 I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good(wiling to have the right effections), but, I don't know how to do it.
19 I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that don't want to do.
20 Now if I habitually do what I actually prefer not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but my own fleshly desires that dwell within me.
Romans 7:5&17
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Do you notice the "sinful nature" part of the text? That is a very bad & wrong translation of the word flesh.
I agree that the flesh is how & why we sin., however, our flesh is not our nature.
Our nature is to serve purpose.
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I do not disagree with any of this, but this does not prove we are totally and completely depraved in our sin. Just because the Bible says that all will sin, DOES NOT mean we have no choice and can not help it. It simply means everyone will sin. Nothing more, nothing le4ss. Stop adding Calvinism to that. Is that a trick comment? Just because the Bible says everybody will sin does not mean everybody will........but they will! More like this:
Is that a trick comment? Just because the Bible says everybody will sin does not mean everybody has to........but they will!
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Same as above. It is true that everyone sins, but the Bible does not teach we are totally depraved at the second of our conception. The Bible is clear that all people will sin. Why is it? Is it because people will not sin? My point is that y'all say that mankind has to sin becuase its their nature.
I say that mankind always chooses to sin.
See the diference?
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I have a hard time understanding what you are saying.
All people will sin because they are depraved. No one will avoid sinning unless I suppose they die before they sin. It still does not mean people are born with clean hearts. All people will sin because they choose to be depraved. No one will avoid sinning unless the choose to submit to God.
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The reason people will naturally sin is because it is their nature to naturally do so. The reason people will choose to sin is because it is their affections chosen to be on the wrong things.
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I think if you are seeking His justice you are seeking the wrong thing.
I think the right thing to be seeking is His MERCY. No, we must seek all of what & who GOD is.
I love the justice of God, fr He is just in all HIS judgment. HE justified me justly!
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Do YOU believe God could do this? If so, you make God out to be the biggest jerk and tyrant this universe will ever witness, and God promises to treat us with love and respect. That is not love my friend. God judges us by OUR ACTIONS accordingly. He does not punish you for something He made you do. Can you find THAT in Scripture? 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? You portray God as a sadistic tyrant.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/31/2008 2:34:02 PM
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