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Sin Nature - 7/28/2008 3:11:38 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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Prov 21:4a haughty look, a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
Prov 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin:
Rom 14:23b whatever is not of faith is sin.(choosing or refusing to have faith, nut inability)
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
1John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:
Sin is fruit from giving to ones effections, from that which one is rooted in.
All men are either rooted in the world & themselves or in Christ, their effections are eather on the world, self, or Christ.
To call ones nature by the fruit he bears is like calling a tree that bears apples an "apple nature"
Nature in the most basic sence serves purpose. The nature in the most basic sence of a thing is what it is suposed to do.
Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to grow and bear fruit.
Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love.
To know Jesus is to love Him.
One who doesn't know God can only put hs effections on himself &/or the world, therefore, he will naturally sin.
A better way to explain "sin nature" is this:
When one does not know the right answer, he will naturally get the question wrong. So it is with our nature, if one does not know/love Christ, he will naturally sin.
Another example is this:
Do you try not to cheet on your wife?
No, there is no need to "try" because you naturaly don't cheet on your wife because you love her.
You naturaly sin because you love yourself, the world or sin, However, if you love the one who keeps you from sin and shows you the truth, you would naturaly not sin.
The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections and inclinations so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.
John 15:4b ...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Romans 11:16b ...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...
While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.
One is born selfish and in reliance on the knowlege of God, not born with a sin nature.
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has his own self as his root. Or he may also be worldly, for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.
Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.
What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
James 1:24 for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what kind he was.
What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant, it will always have a plant nature no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.
What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.
Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.
fact is that the Bible proves that guilt from sin is always from intention, willfull, & volitional disobediance against known cammands, laws, and concience.
1 Sin is a choice.
2 Sin is the fruit of a kind of chosen way of being.
3 Sin can not be inherited.(it is not a genetic trait or a substance to be carried in the blood)
4 No one can be guilty of another's sin.(The sin of another(Adam) can not corrupt anyone else but the one who sinned.)
5 Guilt is only charged at ones first accountable sin.
6 All mankind only dies spiritualy(severed relationship with God) for his first accountable sin.
7 Mankind dies physically because we are not eating from the Tree of Life(that is why Adam died physically) Flesh was never intended to be eternal. Plant and animals die with out sin, therefore physical death is not from our own sin, it is from Adam's expeltion from the garden, away from the Tree of Life.
Guilt can not be & is not charged of an inability/incapability.
Commone sence and justice tproves that if sin is not a choice, but something we must do and is unavoidable, then nobody is guilty, or chgarged with disobediance/rebelion.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Some may ask:
Do you need to teach a child to lie? Do you need to teach a child to share? Do you need to teach a child to respect?
These are according to knowlege.
Are you sugjesting that ones nature is because they don't know any better?
According to this, nature stems from unlearnedness.
Therefore, if you teach one to always do the right thing, you have just changed his nuture.
__________________________________________________________________________________
We need a saviour because every one chooses to sin.
However, no one has to.
We are fallen of ourselves, not because of Adam.
We corrupt ourselves, Adam did not.
An infant is born with a human nature, sinless(with no law, therefore, no sin), innocent, with no conscience(a conscience is learned).
If a "newly accountable child" does not have eternal life before he/she becomes accountable, a child born and brougt up not knowing God, he/she will continue to live according to the flesh.
However, On the other hand, a child born brought up knowing Christ, which is eternal life, and becomes accountable for its own actions will be able to follow after the spirit that the righteous requirements of the Law would be fulfilled because of his love for God(Rom 8:4, Gal 5:16)
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/28/2008 4:10:17 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
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To say babies are born without sin, fully innocent, is wrong and unbiblical. What do you have to say to these clear passages?
Genesis 6:5
5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (ESV)
Psalm 51:5
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)
John 9:34
34They answered him, "You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?" And they cast him out.
In this verse the Pharisees kicked the man born blind out of the synogogue. But they also told the truth as well. "You were born in utter sin." That is true. All people are born in utter sin (as Scripture says in Psalm 51:5), except for one, and that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Romans 7:13-20
13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Apparently the Apostle is saying he is sold under sin, sin dewlls in him. Paul is even saying nothing good dwells in his flesh. So right there he is saying he is utterly depraved to the core. Nothing good dwells in him. And we cannot determine when sin enters us at a certain age, because clearly Scripture says we are born sinners, slaves to sin, needing a Savior. But thanks be to God, through Our Lord Jesus Christ, that we have been saved through believing in Him
Ephesians 2:3
3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
You cannot get any clearer than the Ephesians verse. We are by nature children of wrath. But since we have Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior, original sin cannot condemn us.
And the Romans passage is very clear too, when Paul talks about himself. That there is nothing that is good that dwells in his members, that is, the flesh. Children come from man, and tehy too, are by nature, children of wrath just like each of us. I come from Adam too, and since Adam sinned, sin became part of his very being, and is of a generic nature, so when Eve conceived of Adam, the children brought forth were conceived and born in sin (sinners).
And God, when He gave orders to the Jews, to wipe out their enemies, children were included. They were to wipe out even the cattle.
1 Samuel 15:1-3
1And Samuel said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the LORD. 2Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"(ESV)
So when God said to Saul to destroy everything of the Amalekites, that included children and even infants, and what sin are the babies being destroyed for? Original sin.
But Blessed be to God through outr Lord Jesus Christ, who has saved us who believe, that our sins have been forgiven.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 7/28/2008 4:16:37 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/28/2008 4:25:00 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3139
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Genesis 6:5
5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (ESV) What are the intentions of the thoughts of a newborn's heart? They will to eat and breathe and avoid pain and such - are these sinful intentions?
quote:
Psalm 51:5
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV) Is there any indication in the original text that David was generalizing this personal admission to every other human being?
quote:
Romans 7:13-20 I read nothing in this passage that specifies when Paul received his sinful nature. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/28/2008 5:40:06 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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Thanx for replying.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
To say babies are born without sin, fully innocent, is wrong and unbiblical. What do you have to say to these clear passages?
Genesis 6:5
5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (ESV) Nothing about sin nature in this verse.
quote:
Psalm 51:5 5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV) Why would David excuse and justify his sin by saying, "I was born this way, I couldn't help myself for it's who I am, my very nature to sin" if David was truly, actually, and deeply repenting, he would nevfer justify himself by blaiming it on a so called "sin nature"?
True repentance requires that a person stops justifying and excusing their actions.
True repentance is when a person blames themselves for their sin, instead of blaming Adam or their mother.
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5
From A Perspective on Psalm 51:5by William P. Murray, Jr.
1. This scripture is talking about David and his mother. It is not referencing all of humanity.
2. Taken literally, it is saying that his mother was in some sort of sin when she conceived David.
3. A strong case can be made that Ps. 51:5 is talking about the defilement of David’s mother, because of a previous marriage to another man.
(1.) David had two half-sisters named Zeruiah and Abigail (1 Chron. 2:13-16).
(2.) The father of David’s half sisters was not Jesse but Nahash (2 Sam. 17:25).
(3.) Nahash was an Ammonite king (1 Sam. 11:1; 1 Sam. 12:12).
(4.) David’s father was Jesse, not Nahash. But the Father of David’s half sisters were daughts of Nahash. This could explain why Nahash showed kindness towards David (2 Sam. 10:2).
(5.) David’s mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse. The first wife of Jesse would have been considered superior to his second wife which had been either the concubine or wife of a heathen king.
(6.) This would explain why David’s half brothers viewed themselves as superior to David, and why David was considered prideful for thinking he was as good as them (1 Sam. 17:28-30).
(7.) This may explain why David was not called before Samuel the prophet amongst the other sons (1 Sam. 16:11).
(8.) David’s mother apparently had a good relationship with the Lord (Ps. 86:16; 116:16). But she would have been, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered defiled by her previous relationship with an Ammonite (Num. 25:1,2; Deut. 7:3,4; 1 Kings 11:2-4, Ezra 9:2; Neh. 13:23,25; 2 Cor. 6:14-17).
quote:
Romans 7:13-20
13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. A better way of interpreting this is:
13 Was then that which is good become death to me? God forbid. But, the requirements exist for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made death to be evident within me by that which is good; In other words, the requirements exist so that my unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific requirements
The contrast between the law & our sin.
Roman 5:20
14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to my own unlawful affections.
(this verse is key to understand the following verses)
Romans 6:16-20, Galatians 5:17b
15 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate
James 1:8
16 But if I do what I don't prefer, I am actually agreeing with the requirements that they are good.
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.
Romans 7:5&20
18 I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good(wiling to have the right affections), but, I don't know how to do it.
19 I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that don't want to do.
20 Now if I habitually do what I actually prefer not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but my own fleshly desires that dwell within me.
Romans 7:5&17
21 I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption (inability & weakness of the flesh) is right there with me.
22 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23 But now, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.
Romans 7:14, Galatians 5:17b
Spiritual Death is the effect of sin according to Romans 6:23.
Spiritual Death is the separation from God just as physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body.
The ''law of sin'' is the demands of my own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring me in opposition to God which separates me from Him.
The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh & my own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
This concludes that which is in our ''members'' (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.
24 ''O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?''
After the righteous requirements of the Law of God have done their job, everyone will end up saying this.
25 With the mind, which is my actual being, I truly agree to the righteous requirements of the Law of God, and with the flesh, I serve the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is death.
quote:
Apparently the Apostle is saying he is sold under sin, sin dwells in him. No, Paul was referring to the time before he knew Christ as verse 14 tells us, "living after the flesh"
For being sold under sin, remember Romans 6:16 Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness...ect...
Continue reading the chapter, it tells us that we are responcible for whom our master is, either slave to sin or Christ.
We all know it must be our choice to whom we are sold to, either under sin or the authority of Christ.
quote:
Paul is even saying nothing good dwells in his flesh.
So right there he is saying he is utterly depraved to the core. Nothing good dwells in him. No, Paul is saying that nothing of value can come from the flesh.
Read Romans 8 where it tells us about the mindset of the flesh.
Galatians 15:16
quote:
And we cannot determine when sin enters us at a certain age, because clearly Scripture says we are born sinners, slaves to sin, needing a Savior. Long before the age of accountability is reached, the child develops the habit of self-indulgence, fulfilling the desires of his flesh. This is because the sensibilities develop long before the reason develops. So the will serves the sensibilities for an extended period of time and develops a habit of self-indulgence.
And as soon as he reaches the age of accountability, when the reason is developed, he simply chooses to continue on in his well established habit. This self-indulgence was not sin before the age of accountability, but after the age of accountability, now it becomes sin. So a person becomes a sinner by choice as soon as they reach the age of accountability.
(Jesse Morrell)
About being Born slaves to sin, I refer you to my previous post where I said, "It only makes sense if the "newly accountable child" does not have eternal life before he/she become accountable, a child born and brought up not knowing God, he/she will continue to life according to the flesh(slaves to sin)."
quote:
But thanks be to God, through Our Lord Jesus Christ, that we have been saved through believing in Him
Ephesians 2:3 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
You cannot get any clearer than the Ephesians. "by nature children of wrath"
This is like saying, those who are thirsty, by nature drink to satisfy their thirst."
Just as those who "lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind" are naturally going to be children of wrath.
It ain't saying that they are born that way.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/28/2008 7:13:32 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Hello Diolectic
Do these scripture passages and website agree to your way?
John 1:47
Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!"
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3303
Psalm 32
1 Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
3For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer.
Selah
5I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,"
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.
Selah
6Therefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found; (John 1:45)
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
7You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance.
Selah
8I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the LORD.
11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
Matthew 9:10-13
Jesus Calls Matthew
10And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 12But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
http://www.sentinel.org/node/9110 13Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
Peter
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/28/2008 7:46:01 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1676
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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Jessica,
Great post! 
Diolectic,
quote:
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
I think Jesus Christ made it very clear that sin is rooted in the human heart.
Here is what Jesus said in Mark 7;
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this.
Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him.
Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "
The reason nothing going into a man can make him unclean is because men are already unclean.
There is a reason that what comes out is unclean........because it comes from a naturally unclean heart.
After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable.
"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?
For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
Sure......a baby might not sin because it is incapable.......but only give it the chance to grow and it will sin.
That is because they have the same hearts as all other sinners.
He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.'
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart.
The human heart is naturally evil.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 12:01:15 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3139
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
The human heart is naturally evil. The human heart has become "naturally evil" due to inbred sin. The human heart was created naturally good - Genesis 1:26-31. It is God's plan to restore our natural heart to its original goodness!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 12:29:26 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The human heart is naturally evil. The human heart has become "naturally evil" due to inbred sin. The human heart was created naturally good - Genesis 1:26-31. It is God's plan to restore our natural heart to its original goodness!
Yes, inbred sin has another name. Original sin. Meaning when we are conceived in the womb, we are sinners, because when the Fall of mankind occured, their nature became corrupted with sin, and thus of a generic nature, it became part of their genes. So when they beget children, those children are conceived and born in sin (sinners). Psalm 51:5
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 12:45:31 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3139
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Meaning when we are conceived in the womb, we are sinners You still have not answered my first question from post# 3, Jessica. What sinful intentions do preborn human babies possess? Describe sinning behavior in a newborn.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 12:48:10 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello Diolectic
Do these scripture passages and website agree to your way?
John 1:47
Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!"
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3303
Psalm 32
1 Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
3For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer.
Selah
5I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,"
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.
Selah
6Therefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found; (John 1:45)
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
7You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance.
Selah
8I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the LORD.
11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart! Tell me how this proves a nature of sin.
quote:
Matthew 9:10-13 Jesus Calls Matthew 10And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”; 12But
when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners”
13Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners;
Peter Still, nothing about sin nature.
All your proving is than mankind sin, and need salvation.
I whole heartedly agree with you.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 12:55:43 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBondDiolectic,quote:
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self. I think Jesus Christ made it very clear that sin is rooted in the human heart.
Here is what Jesus said in Mark 7; Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him
'unclean.' “; The reason nothing going into a man can make him unclean is because men are already unclean. There is a reason that what comes out is unclean........because it comes from a naturally unclean heart. That is unbiblical.
What makes a man unclean is what he touches. Read Leviticus.
When one sins, that is what makes him unclean, not that he is unclean to start with.
A child’s first accountable sin defiles him.
The heart can not be naturally unclean, for God is Who creates all mankind, He is who creates the nature of mankind, He would not create His beloved creation with a nature which He hates.
Nature, in the most basic sense serves purpose.
The nature, in the most basic sense of a thing is what it is created to be & do.
You are making God creating His beloved creation to inevitably do what He hates.
Sin is not a driving force as you are implying.
A man's affections are a driving force.
Ones value system & priorities are what builds his driving force.
We are commanded to choose the right values & have the correct priorities(guard & keep your heart) so that we may not sin.
quote:
After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull”/; he asked. “Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean”) Notice that it says that the text says, Mark 7:21 That which came out of the man, that defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men
No one is defiled untill it comes out.
Lucifer is a good example:
Ezekiel 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
Fact is, there was no so called sin nature in Lucifer, but sin still came from in him, it was found in him, it defiled him.
This means that it wasn't there before, but He still chose to sin.
Since it wasn't there before, his heart was perfect until it appeared.
So it is with all mankind.
Please re-read my openining post
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Sure......a baby might not sin because it is incapable.......but only give it the chance to grow and it will sin. That is because they have the same hearts as all other sinners. I already covered this in my post #3 did you read that?
I'll repost it so you know which part.
Long before the age of accountability is reached, the child develops the habit of self-indulgence, fulfilling the desires of his flesh. This is because the sensibilities develop long before the reason develops. So the will serves the sensibilities for an extended period of time and develops a habit of self-indulgence.
And as soon as he reaches the age of accountability, when the reason is developed, he simply chooses to continue on in his well established habit. This self-indulgence was not sin before the age of accountability, but after the age of accountability, now it becomes sin. So a person becomes a sinner by choice as soon as they reach the age of accountability.
(Jesse Morrell)
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He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.“; The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart. The human heart is naturally evil. The heart is the problem, however,
That is why we are told to guard our heart Prov.4:23
If it was naturally evil from the start, we wouldn't be told to guard it or keep it, we would be told to discard it.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 1:10:57 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKluquote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The human heart is naturally evil. The human heart has become "naturally evil" due to inbred sin. The human heart was created naturally good - Genesis 1:26-31. It is God's plan to restore our natural heart to its original goodness!
Yes, inbred sin has another name. Original sin. Meaning when we are conceived in the womb, we are sinners, because when the Fall of mankind occurred, their nature became corrupted with sin, and thus of a generic nature, it became part of their genes. So when they beget children, those children are conceived and born in sin (sinners). Psalm 51:5
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica Where in Scripture does it say that when the Fall of mankind occurred, their nature became corrupted with sin?
Where does Scripture describe sin as genetic?
Did you not read my First post, where I defined sin?
As for Psalm 51:5, did you not read the explanation of it?
Can you answer the questions that come from with my explanation?
Why would David excuse and justify his sin by saying, "I was born this way, I couldn't help myself for it's who I am, my very nature to sin" if David was truly, actually, and deeply repenting, he would nevfer justify himself by blaiming it on a so called "sin nature"?
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 1:59:18 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3139
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Where in Scripture does it say that when the Fall of mankind occurred, their nature became corrupted with sin? Romans 5:12-19
quote:
Where does Scripture describe sin as genetic? It doesn't, at least not in the sense of molecular biology. However, the phenotype (outward expression) of all humans is sinning behavior - Romans 3:23.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 2:08:38 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Meaning when we are conceived in the womb, we are sinners You still have not answered my first question from post# 3, Jessica. What sinful intentions do preborn human babies possess? Describe sinning behavior in a newborn.
Newborns may not be able to do personal sins, but what Original sin does do is that when a baby is conceived, at that moment, the child is full of evil inclinations and lusts, and therefore can have no true fear, or trust in God.
Once the baby gets older, these evil inclinations and lusts begin to show more clearly, but from the time of conception they are there, or else no human being would sin in the first place.
Most of Christendom, 75% of Christendom, believes in Original Sin. It is a very unorthodox belief to deny Original Sin. It is there plainly in Scripture, you did not pay attention to my post.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 2:26:11 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3139
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quote:
Newborns may not be able to do personal sins, but what Original sin does do is that when a baby is conceived, at that moment, the child is full of evil inclinations and lusts, and therefore can have no true fear, or trust in God. This makes no sense, Jessica. How can a baby "full of evil inclinations and lusts" not be able "to do personal sins"? What evil lust does a newborn feel? How does s/he know these feelings are evil? What level of intellectual function is required for a person to know God enough to trust Him?
quote:
Most of Christendom, 75% of Christendom, believes in Original Sin. It is a very unorthodox belief to deny Original Sin. It is there plainly in Scripture, you did not pay attention to my post. I believe in Original Sin, Jessica, however I do not feel the Scriptures you provided support the concept. Do you have a comment on Romans 5:12-19?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 3:10:22 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Newborns may not be able to do personal sins, but what Original sin does do is that when a baby is conceived, at that moment, the child is full of evil inclinations and lusts, and therefore can have no true fear, or trust in God. This makes no sense, Jessica. How can a baby "full of evil inclinations and lusts" not be able "to do personal sins"? What evil lust does a newborn feel? How does s/he know these feelings are evil? What level of intellectual function is required for a person to know God enough to trust Him?
quote:
Most of Christendom, 75% of Christendom, believes in Original Sin. It is a very unorthodox belief to deny Original Sin. It is there plainly in Scripture, you did not pay attention to my post. I believe in Original Sin, Jessica, however I do not feel the Scriptures you provided support the concept. Do you have a comment on Romans 5:12-19?
Ok, drmark. Have you seen an infant cry for more than it needs? For instance it was just fed, and the mother gave it attention, and now the mother is going to do the dishes, but then the baby cries for more attention, therefore the mother can't do her duties. To me, that is selfishness, and yes, sin.
In particular, what is your belief about Original sin then? If you are saying babies are innocent, without sin, then basically you do not believe in Original Sin, and therefore, you adhere to unorthodox Christianity.
Original Sin is hard to explain all the time, but scripture supports it, and the scriptures I have posted definately support the doctrine.
Here is also a very good explanation of Original Sin from the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord.
5] 1. And first, it is true that Christians should regard and recognize as sin not only the actual transgression of God's commandments; but also that the horrible, dreadful hereditary malady by which the entire nature is corrupted should above all things be regarded and recognized as sin indeed, yea, as the chief sin, which is a root and fountain-head of all actual sins. 6] And by Dr. Luther it is called a nature-sin or person-sin, thereby to indicate that, even though a person would think, speak, or do nothing evil (which, however, is impossible in this life, since the fall of our first parents), his nature and person are nevertheless sinful, that is, thoroughly and utterly infected and corrupted before God by original sin, as by a spiritual leprosy; and on account of this corruption and because of the fall of the first man the nature or person is accused or condemned by God's Law, so that we are by nature the children of wrath, death, and damnation, unless we are delivered therefrom by the merit of Christ.
7] 2. In the second place, this, too, is clear and true, as the Nineteenth Article of the Augsburg Confession teaches, that God is not a creator, author, or cause of sin, but by the instigation of the devil through one man sin (which is a work of the devil) has entered the world, Rom. 5, 12; 1 John 3, 7. And even at the present day, in this corruption [in this corruption of nature], God does not create and make sin in us, but with the nature which God at the present day still creates and makes in men original sin is propagated from sinful seed, through carnal conception and birth from father and mother.
8] 3. In the third place, what [and how great] this hereditary evil is no reason knows and understands, but, as the Smalcald Articles say, it must be learned and believed from the revelation of Scripture. And in the Apology this is briefly comprehended under the following main heads:
9] 1. That this hereditary evil is the guilt [by which it comes to pass] that, by reason of the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all in God's displeasure, and by nature children of wrath, as the apostle shows Rom. 5, 12ff ; Eph. 2, 3.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-sd/originalsin.html
This is only part of the entire article. There is no way I could post all of it. But hopefully you get the point.
As the article says, this hereditary sin by which the entire nature is corrupted, is the chief sin, the root sin, the fountain-head of all actual sins.
And this goes with what the Prophet and Kind David said in Psalm 51:5 and what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 7:18
Psalm 51:5
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)
Romans 7:18
18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. (ESV)
Edit: My husband also found this other scripture yesterday when he was talking on another forum topic and found it useful for me.
Ecclesiastes 9:1-6
Death comes to All
1But all this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. Whether it is love or hate, man does not know; both are before him. 2 It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.(ESV)
There is nothing new under the sun.
This sripture is saying that death comes to all, and death is the result of sin, so therefore no one is without sin, no, not even infants. Only one was without fault, only One was without sin, from the moment of conception till His very death, resurrection and Ascension, and that is Jesus.
In verse three it also plainly says that the hearts of the children of man are full of evil (sin is evil). That verse is specifically talking about children, but they also are evil while they live, and then they go to the dead.
But thanks be to God our Father who sent His Son into the world, Our Lord Jesus Christ, to save us from sin and death, when we believe in Him.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 7/29/2008 7:50:55 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 7:49:57 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmarkquote:
Where in Scripture does it say that when the Fall of mankind occurred, their nature became corrupted with sin? Romans 5:12-19
Romans 5:12 Just as the first transgression was introduced sin into the world by Adam... so (physical) death (came into the world) through (that) sin...
And so (physical) death spread to all men because all sinned [so far, and mankind will continue to sin from then on]
Romans 5:17 If, because of Adam's trespass, [physical]death reigned because of him., much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [physical]life because of Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:18 so, then, as by the means of one offence, [so it is] to all men to condemnation, so also as by the means of one declaration of `Righteous' [so it is] to all men to justification of life;
Let’s follow the analogy:
1. by the offence
by the righteousness
2. of one
of one
3. judgment came
the free gift came
4. upon all men
upon all men
5. to condemnation
unto justification of life
Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon all men, so also justification came upon all men.
If Justification is not forced upon all men, given involuntarily, then condemnation is not forced upon all men, is not given involuntarily.
However, both have come upon all men: condemnation through our own offence, and justification through Jesus.
It is the individual’s choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.
If you live in sin, which all men will choose to do starting with Adam, you will be condemned.
If you believe in God, which some men will choose to do, by Jesus you will be justified
Romans 5:19 ''as by''-''so by''
This is a comparison of the two.
Just as by the one mans disobedience, [in like manner of disobedience] the many were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the one, [in like manner of obedience] so shall the many be made righteous.
It must be interpreted this way or else you have universal salvation by involuntary righteousness. In whatsoever way we are made sinners, it is the same way to be made righteous.
If many were made sinners involuntarily, then many were made righteous the same way.
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RE: Sin Nature - 7/29/2008 8:43:10 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1676
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Diolectic,
I agree with Jessica.
I posted what Jesus said in Mark 7 and you say it is unbiblical?
Mark 7 starts out speaking about touching things, being unclean, and a special washing that was done according to tradition.
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
I know Jesus said that to them. Do you suppose it might apply to any other person as well?
Have you ever set aside a command of God once, twice, for any reason?
Jesus clarifies as He points to the root of the problem.
20He went on: < | | |
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