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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 7/31/2008 10:34:06 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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There's no argument on this. The man broke the law when there were common sense things he could have done to avoid the situation long before it ever happened. I was under the impression that we were admonished by Christ to obey the laws of lands we lived in, unless said law prevented the worship of God or demanded that one blaspheme God.
Having a law that protects an animal does neither of those things because in most cases a jury will find the person defending themselves not guilty. But they still have to face due process because that's the law and, as has been told to me repeatedly, Jesus is ok with us obeying the law like that.
This should be a non-issue really.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 7/31/2008 10:36:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
That would be because people like yourself can't seem to grasp what I'm saying.
I refute what you say so therefore I must grasp it... The law regarding this topic is absurd and should be abolished...
John
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 7/31/2008 10:39:10 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
That would be because people like yourself can't seem to grasp what I'm saying.
I refute what you say so therefore I must grasp it... The law regarding this topic is absurd and should be abolished...
John
Actually no it shouldn't. Laws like that exist to prevent the poaching of endangered animals, which that particular one is in Ohio. Maybe it should be ammended to allow for self defense, that much I'll grant but I don't think it should be totally abolished. Sometimes laws like that are necessary to make sure we remain good and faithful caretakers of what God has given us.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 7/31/2008 10:40:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
There's no argument on this. The man broke the law when there were common sense things he could have done to avoid the situation long before it ever happened. I was under the impression that we were admonished by Christ to obey the laws of lands we lived in, unless said law prevented the worship of God or demanded that one blaspheme God.
Any law that make defending oneself unlawful is ungodly...
quote:
Having a law that protects an animal does neither of those things because in most cases a jury will find the person defending themselves not guilty.
Yes it does... Any law that places the life of animal on par or greater than that which is made in God's image is ungodly...
quote:
But they still have to face due process because that's the law and, as has been told to me repeatedly, Jesus is ok with us obeying the law like that.
No He's not... Any law that places a greater value on the life of an animal over that which is made in His image is ungodly...
John
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 7/31/2008 10:41:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
That would be because people like yourself can't seem to grasp what I'm saying.
I refute what you say so therefore I must grasp it... The law regarding this topic is absurd and should be abolished...
John
Actually no it shouldn't. Laws like that exist to prevent the poaching of endangered animals, which that particular one is in Ohio. Maybe it should be ammended to allow for self defense, that much I'll grant but I don't think it should be totally abolished. Sometimes laws like that are necessary to make sure we remain good and faithful caretakers of what God has given us.
Any law that places a greater value on the life of an animal over that which is made in His image is ungodly...
John
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 8/1/2008 8:40:29 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3396
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Was...this a matter of self defence?
Did...the man have to shoot the bear?
I would say if he had to shoot the bear..then bear steaks for everyone.
Bears...are bears and are a threat when around humans. Between the bear and a human...the human has to be more important.
I don't have a problem with bears being protected....thing is...if its between my family and a bear...the bear loses and I don't care if its the last bear on earth.
I don't support shooting bears or any other animal for no good reason.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 8/1/2008 1:52:28 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3969
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Was...this a matter of self defence?
Did...the man have to shoot the bear?
I would say if he had to shoot the bear..then bear steaks for everyone.
Bears...are bears and are a threat when around humans. Between the bear and a human...the human has to be more important.
I don't have a problem with bears being protected....thing is...if its between my family and a bear...the bear loses and I don't care if its the last bear on earth.
I don't support shooting bears or any other animal for no good reason.
None are so blind as those who will not hear. 
Once he was in the bear charging at him situation, then I am fine with it. No question at that point. However, this man's previous actions, probably out of ignorance similar to that of some posters here, placed him and his sweetie (the girlfriend, not the dog) in that circumstance. Therefore, he should have some accountability. Were I the judge, I'd give court costs and 100 hours of "community service" with the local wildlife agency (in lieu of fine).
Thankfully you're not a judge... Would you give court costs and 100 hours of "community service" to a person who didn't have an alarm system and other anti-thief devices because someone broke into their home given your view on accountability?
John
Lousy analogy. Since there is no law against not having those devices, why would someone be in court? LOL.
Perfect analogy and I got the response I was hoping for...
You didn't mention law, but ignorance regarding accountability... How is person any less guilty of ignorance who doesn't make their home theft proof?
John
Density is an equal opportunity offender, LOL. Ignorance is not illegal.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 8/1/2008 3:12:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Was...this a matter of self defence?
Did...the man have to shoot the bear?
I would say if he had to shoot the bear..then bear steaks for everyone.
Bears...are bears and are a threat when around humans. Between the bear and a human...the human has to be more important.
I don't have a problem with bears being protected....thing is...if its between my family and a bear...the bear loses and I don't care if its the last bear on earth.
I don't support shooting bears or any other animal for no good reason.
None are so blind as those who will not hear.
Once he was in the bear charging at him situation, then I am fine with it. No question at that point. However, this man's previous actions, probably out of ignorance similar to that of some posters here, placed him and his sweetie (the girlfriend, not the dog) in that circumstance. Therefore, he should have some accountability. Were I the judge, I'd give court costs and 100 hours of "community service" with the local wildlife agency (in lieu of fine).
Thankfully you're not a judge... Would you give court costs and 100 hours of "community service" to a person who didn't have an alarm system and other anti-thief devices because someone broke into their home given your view on accountability?
John
Lousy analogy. Since there is no law against not having those devices, why would someone be in court? LOL.
Perfect analogy and I got the response I was hoping for...
You didn't mention law, but ignorance regarding accountability... How is person any less guilty of ignorance who doesn't make their home theft proof?
John
Density is an equal opportunity offender, LOL. Ignorance is not illegal.
Thanks for your retraction... I figured you'd come around...
John
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/8/2008 4:28:06 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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Ulitmately the question here is about both avoidability and accountability.
On the avoidability of the situation: Was shooting and killing the bear avoidable by common sense measures like building a fence and keeping his garbage can in his garage until trash day? The answer is absolutely yes. If he had taken these two relatively simple measures the bear would not have come on his property.
Could he have learned about the possibility of a bear in area? Again the answer is yes. There were rumors about such and uncomfirmed reports with the police. So we go to the first answer about avoidance of the problem.
Is the man accountable for his actions since he took none of the above steps? The answer is yes. He broke the law. Now I do think that he should get a reduced sentance, such as community service, but he did break the law. That cannot be argued against. We are all accountable for our actions whether we like it or not.
On the matters of sin we are accountable to God, and only by repentance and acceptance of Christ can we be forgiven, but to my knowledge God makes no provisions for us not being accountable for violations of man's law. Unless said law somehow makes it illegal for you to worship and follow Almighty God. Laws against shooting a bear do no such thing, as such the man is to be held accountable for his actions.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/10/2008 7:08:21 PM
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47.samuel
Posts: 44
Joined: 9/24/2008
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quote:
"..... on April 13 (2006), six-year-old Elora Petrasek of Clyde, Ohio, was killed when a bear attacked her as she was swimming with her mother and two-year-old brother near the Chilhowee Recreation Area near Cleveland, Tennessee.
That fatality is among only 12 cases of black bears killing humans in the contiguous United States in the last century, according to the North American Bear Center in Ely, Minnesota.
..... With more than 750,000 black bears in North America, "only one black bear out of … over a million becomes a killer," Rogers said.
He adds that people are more than a hundred times more likely to be killed by bees in the United States than by a black bear.'
http://www.ead.ae/en/
The couple may have overreacted to the news of the death of Elora Petrasek in Tennesse a couple of years earlier.
Not only were they foolish enough not to keep their waste food out of the bear's reach - why wouldn't they at least have the common sense to remain indoors at 2:00 am at night?
All the couple needed to do was stay inside and contact the local police or the rangers to solve the problem.
To my knowledge, there has never been a report of a deliberate "home invasion" by a black bear to attack the occupants.
Instead of black bears, Mother Nature should consider sending in the bees to deliver the "knockout punch" in Round #2.
ANOTHER
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROBLEM
SOLVED!!!
< Message edited by 47.samuel -- 10/10/2008 7:32:22 PM >
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/11/2008 12:40:05 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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If the bear had been a man and was rumaging through my back yard and then charged me in a threatening manner I would be justified in shooting him and no grand jury in Texas would indict me.
I guess bears are more important than people.
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/11/2008 12:57:55 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
If the bear had been a man and was rumaging through my back yard and then charged me in a threatening manner I would be justified in shooting him and no grand jury in Texas would indict me.
I guess bears are more important than people.
Again the situation with the bear was avoidable. As has been stated before putting up a fence and keeping his trashcan inside his garage are simple, common sense things that could have been done. He could have called the DNR the first time he saw the bear as well. He didn't do any of those things though. He waited until the situation got bad and then shot the bear.
I don't fault him for defending himself, however he did break the law and he didn't take the common sense precautions that could have prevented the whole situation. It's about being held accountable for what you do and for not doing the things that would have prevented your own situation.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/11/2008 1:48:41 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
If the bear had been a man and was rumaging through my back yard and then charged me in a threatening manner I would be justified in shooting him and no grand jury in Texas would indict me.
I guess bears are more important than people.
Again the situation with the bear was avoidable. As has been stated before putting up a fence and keeping his trashcan inside his garage are simple, common sense things that could have been done. He could have called the DNR the first time he saw the bear as well. He didn't do any of those things though. He waited until the situation got bad and then shot the bear.
I don't fault him for defending himself, however he did break the law and he didn't take the common sense precautions that could have prevented the whole situation. It's about being held accountable for what you do and for not doing the things that would have prevented your own situation.
Yep. Bears are so much easier to control and their movements are so much more predictable.
That's why I don't understand all the consternation in another thread over the guy who shot two thugs who invaded his neighbor's house in Houston. After all, they weren't bears.
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/11/2008 2:02:28 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
If the bear had been a man and was rumaging through my back yard and then charged me in a threatening manner I would be justified in shooting him and no grand jury in Texas would indict me.
I guess bears are more important than people.
Again the situation with the bear was avoidable. As has been stated before putting up a fence and keeping his trashcan inside his garage are simple, common sense things that could have been done. He could have called the DNR the first time he saw the bear as well. He didn't do any of those things though. He waited until the situation got bad and then shot the bear.
I don't fault him for defending himself, however he did break the law and he didn't take the common sense precautions that could have prevented the whole situation. It's about being held accountable for what you do and for not doing the things that would have prevented your own situation.
Yep. Bears are so much easier to control and their movements are so much more predictable.
That's why I don't understand all the consternation in another thread over the guy who shot two thugs who invaded his neighbor's house in Houston. After all, they weren't bears.
Because the situations don't equate.
In one you have a man who'd had a bear sniffing around his garbage. A bear that his dog had chased off twice before. Had he brought his garbage can inside the garage, put up a fence to keep the dog safe and called the DNR to report the sighting there would likely have never been a need to shoot the bear. The most I, and others have called for was community service for not taking the common sense steps that would have prevented the whole situation. No one faults him for defending himself, we fault him for not taking the above mentioned steps that could have prevented him from ever having to shoot anything.
In another you have a man who did call the police and told them what he was seeing and that if they didn't act soon he would have to. In the course of the conversation the 911 response operator tried to talk him down because it may have been the law that she had to do so. He acted and shot the two would be robbers and was arrested. If memory serves he was released and no further charges were filed, or he may have been cleared I'm not sure.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/11/2008 2:26:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
On the avoidability of the situation: Was shooting and killing the bear avoidable by common sense measures like building a fence and keeping his garbage can in his garage until trash day? The answer is absolutely yes. If he had taken these two relatively simple measures the bear would not have come on his property.
You can't say that for certain and I can tell you from personal experience that simply hiding the trash isn't fail safe... Just how simple is it to build a fence to keep bears out? Surely simple and cheap to post about it...
quote:
Could he have learned about the possibility of a bear in area? Again the answer is yes. There were rumors about such and uncomfirmed reports with the police. So we go to the first answer about avoidance of the problem.
Is there a law that says a person has to learn about the possibility of a bear in area?
quote:
Is the man accountable for his actions since he took none of the above steps? The answer is yes. He broke the law.
Does the law state he must have fence and keep his garbage in the garage? If a person doesn't lock their house up and they shoot a thief should they be treated the same?
Where's the motive?
quote:
On the matters of sin we are accountable to God, and only by repentance and acceptance of Christ can we be forgiven, but to my knowledge God makes no provisions for us not being accountable for violations of man's law. Unless said law somehow makes it illegal for you to worship and follow Almighty God. Laws against shooting a bear do no such thing, as such the man is to be held accountable for his actions.
Any law that places the well being of an animal over the life of man is arguably against God's law...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/11/2008 3:15:15 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7779
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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My take way from this is if a bear threatens my property or family, shoot the bear, bury the bear, keep my mouth shut.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: What is wrong with those environmentalists? - 10/11/2008 4:11:41 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Ulitmately the question here is about both avoidability and accountability.
On the avoidability of the situation: Was shooting and killing the bear avoidable by common sense measures like building a fence and keeping his garbage can in his garage until trash day? The answer is absolutely yes. If he had taken these two relatively simple measures the bear would not have come on his property.
Could he have learned about the possibility of a bear in area? Again the answer is yes. There were rumors about such and uncomfirmed reports with the police. So we go to the first answer about avoidance of the problem.
Is the man accountable for his actions since he took none of the above steps? The answer is yes. He broke the law. Now I do think that he should get a reduced sentance, such as community service, but he did break the law. That cannot be argued against. We are all accountable for our actions whether we like it or not.
On the matters of sin we are accountable to God, and only by repentance and acceptance of Christ can we be forgiven, but to my knowledge God makes no provisions for us not being accountable for violations of man's law. Unless said law somehow makes it illegal for you to worship and follow Almighty God. Laws against shooting a bear do no such thing, as such the man is to be held accountable for his actions.
Spoken like a city slicker imposing his common sense on others. I agree with JHud. The best solution to the problem, kill the bear and keep your mouth shut.
I don't know where you live, jkdjr25, but where I live out in the sticks, we have bears in the area. We also have wolves and, it's been rumored a cougar is in the neighborhood. I'm not going to put a fence around my property to keep a bear out because it'll keep the deer and other critters out too. When it comes to garbage, we have to think about not only the bear, the racoons and the skunks too.
Perhaps in your suburban environment you can take the necessary measures to avoid having to shoot a bear. But your necessary measures don't cut it out here.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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