RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead, 8 injured
View related threads:
(in this forum
| in all forums)
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 9:33:27 AM
|
|
|
landabee
Posts: 2859
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
|
quote:
Today's newspaper (this is local news for me, too) includes an interview with a person who considered the gunman a friend. She says that he had told her that the Bible was full of contradictions, that he resented that his parents had made him go to church, and was enraged when she told him about her daughter graduating from Bible College.
He appears to be a mentally unstable person who was looking for someone to blame his troubles on
Is there an online link, Kerrlaw?
I missed the story on t.v. this morning. There were interviews with some of the folks....but I had to hustle out the door.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 9:40:07 AM
|
|
|
bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
|
the same info was in the story I liked to earlier. This man was NOT a Christian, and had a disdain for them.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 9:41:34 AM
|
|
|
landabee
Posts: 2859
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
|
Missed your link.....going back up to find it.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 10:16:02 AM
|
|
|
SteveSund
Posts: 452
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
Rememer Thou shalt not kill? I seem to recall that factoring into God's top ten list. I don't recall that ever being recinded or God saying Thou shalt not kill, unless....
You might want to read up a little bit more on that top 10 list. Murder, as opposed to kill, is a more accurate translation. Self-defense, therefore would not be included, since a killing done in self-defense is not a murder.
quote:
Bringing guns into a house of worship is a bad idea. How long before someone blows his top during a called church meeting? Pastoral review? church softball game?
I'd say a long time, since guns have been around in some form since the 13th century and people have probably been carrying them in churches since the development of handguns. There are plenty of instances where guns were used to stop some kind of violent attack. Do you think protecting people from killers is a bad idea, too?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 10:26:33 AM
|
|
|
bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
Bringing guns into a house of worship is a bad idea. How long before someone blows his top during a called church meeting? Pastoral review? church softball game?
I'd say a long time, since guns have been around in some form since the 13th century and people have probably been carrying them in churches since the development of handguns. There are plenty of instances where guns were used to stop some kind of violent attack. Do you think protecting people from killers is a bad idea, too?
Nope, I am a gun owner, but I leave it outside of the church house. Here are examples why I don't want them in church:
Ethel gets the lead in the Christmas cantata. Myrtle pulls out her .38, and blows Ethel away in a fit of jealousy. Sounds funny, but something similar happened about 20 years ago, only the offended woman had a bottle of lye with her and poured it on the chosen soloist.
Kid in Sunday school rambles through the teacher's purse while teacher is distracted, pulls out gun and gets hurt or killed.
I don't think criminals show up to kill in churches enough at this point to justify an armed congregation.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 10:31:43 AM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11693
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
HERE'S the newspaper reports on the story, Landabee.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 11:28:59 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
Bringing guns into a house of worship is a bad idea. How long before someone blows his top during a called church meeting? Pastoral review? church softball game?
I'd say a long time, since guns have been around in some form since the 13th century and people have probably been carrying them in churches since the development of handguns. There are plenty of instances where guns were used to stop some kind of violent attack. Do you think protecting people from killers is a bad idea, too?
Nope, I am a gun owner, but I leave it outside of the church house. Here are examples why I don't want them in church:
Ethel gets the lead in the Christmas cantata. Myrtle pulls out her .38, and blows Ethel away in a fit of jealousy. Sounds funny, but something similar happened about 20 years ago, only the offended woman had a bottle of lye with her and poured it on the chosen soloist.
Kid in Sunday school rambles through the teacher's purse while teacher is distracted, pulls out gun and gets hurt or killed.
I don't think criminals show up to kill in churches enough at this point to justify an armed congregation.
Ok... And we can count on you to be the one to stand between whomever and the perosn attempting to harm others, right?
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 12:43:25 PM
|
|
|
bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
|
SovereignIsHe:
I won't have to come between anyone and a bullet. Divide the number of churches by the number of shootings in churches, and see that the chance of it happening is less than the change of getting struck by lighting.
However, bring guns into church, and the numbers will multiply due to accidents and rage. there are not enough shootings in houses of worship to warrant packing heat.
Universalist Unitarians are pacifists. I doubt any of them would carry a gun to their building if they could.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 1:30:03 PM
|
|
|
zmanfan38
Posts: 8521
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ...for it's root, root, root for the CUBBIES!!!
Status: offline
|
I live in Knoxville and just after our time of invitation Sunday morning we were told about the shooting so that we could pray corporately for those who were there during the shooting. I don't agree with a lot of things that church stands for, but they did not deserve to have a man with emotional problems come in and riddle their church with bullets...not at all.
The reason our church found out about what happened so quickly is that we have a police ministry. Church members do not bring guns to church, but we have police officers who are members of the church who come Sunday mornings in full uniform (including their gun). We are a "mega church". We have 2 services every Sunday morning that have about 1500 attending for each service. I truly believe we need the police presence there because if anybody wanted to cause trouble in a large crowd, we'd be a prime target. I am opposed to guns being brought by anyone else for the reasons Blue stated, but I'm grateful and relieved to have our police ministry.
_____________________________
«Christi»
tattoo
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 3:52:02 PM
|
|
|
SteveSund
Posts: 452
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
However, bring guns into church, and the numbers will multiply due to accidents and rage. there are not enough shootings in houses of worship to warrant packing heat.
There are some states that allow people to lawfully carry concealed guns in church and I don't believe there has been a rise in accidents or rages, so if you have any information that suggests otherwise, I am interested. I never understood the logic behind no-carry zones. Do lawfully armed individual somehow behave differently in church then they would in a shopping mall, grocery store or other public place? Is church an environment that fosters dangerous behavior and violent impulses?
I will consider myself blessed if I never have to draw my gun in self-defense. That being said, I'd rather have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it. The odds of my house catching on fire are very low, but I still have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers. I view guns in much the same way. They are tools I may need in an emergency.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 3:56:19 PM
|
|
|
bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
|
House fires are an everyday event. shootings in churches are not.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 3:56:48 PM
|
|
|
jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
Well jkdjr25 and sylvan, take comfort in that you're not the only ones with these outlandish ideas:
Intolerant Left views world through same bespeckled glasses
Nice. Very Christ like to attack me there.
David killing Goliath is different. For one it was a military situation, David was acting on behalf of God and Israel. For two one can act in self defense without killing. You can always try to incapacitate someone, believe it or not that can actually work.
Why are some so ready to jump to the defense of killing another person? It's wrong. God did not say Thou shalt not kill, unless it's in self defense. It's still murder, even if it's in self defense. It still requires attonement and forgiveness.
Keep in mind that I do actually support the second ammendment and I do believe in a person's right to defend themselves. I just don't think we should be so eager to defend killing anyone. It's not what Christ taught.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 4:05:14 PM
|
|
|
freakofnature
Posts: 819
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
|
jkdjr25, your comment previously was:
quote:
of course since this isn't the great Christian Republican Party stance it'll be ignored, or ridiculed by people who don't actually think for themselves. How's that Republican brand kool-aid by the way?
Sounds rather straw like. I haven't defended anyone talking of killing another, in fact, the only ones that were killed in the news story starting this thread were innocent victims of a mad gun man. HOWEVER, websters online dictionary defines murder as the following:
"1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"
Self defense is lawful last I checked. AND I believe Christ was good with following the laws of the land!
P.S.- Webster's definition of self defense:
"self–de·fense
Pronunciation: \ˌself-di-ˈfen(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 1651
1 : a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide
2 : the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative "
I have never personally been attacked by a person with a gun, but I am quite sure that it may be difficult to get close enough to defend one-self against someone weilding a weopon.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 4:13:15 PM
|
|
|
jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
jkdjr25, your comment previously was:
quote:
of course since this isn't the great Christian Republican Party stance it'll be ignored, or ridiculed by people who don't actually think for themselves. How's that Republican brand kool-aid by the way?
Sounds rather straw like. I haven't defended anyone talking of killing another, in fact, the only ones that were killed in the news story starting this thread were innocent victims of a mad gun man. HOWEVER, websters online dictionary defines murder as the following:
"1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"
Self defense is lawful last I checked. AND I believe Christ was good with following the laws of the land!
P.S.- Webster's definition of self defense:
"self–de·fense
Pronunciation: \ˌself-di-ˈfen(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 1651
1 : a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide
2 : the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative "
My problem isn't self defense, it's the ease at which so many seem to advocate killing in the name of self defense. You can defend yourself, as an individual, wihtout killing. It's still murder and still requires attonement. Yes Christ said to obey the laws of the land, unless said law conflicts with God's. Taking a life should never be treated that lightly, by anyone. It's a serious thing because the person that dies, if they aren't a Christian, has just lost their chance for redemption, and that for sure isn't to be take lightly.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 4:16:44 PM
|
|
|
freakofnature
Posts: 819
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
My problem isn't self defense, it's the ease at which so many seem to advocate killing in the name of self defense. You can defend yourself, as an individual, wihtout killing. It's still murder and still requires attonement. Yes Christ said to obey the laws of the land, unless said law conflicts with God's. Taking a life should never be treated that lightly, by anyone. It's a serious thing because the person that dies, if they aren't a Christian, has just lost their chance for redemption, and that for sure isn't to be take lightly.
I completely understand your stance and don't disagree with you in principle but at the same time, if it comes between killing of one man, and that same man's slaughter of more innocents lives, I will vote for the mad man to be stopped, if he ends dead, I will be sorry and forgiveness goes along way to aid in recovery.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 4:18:03 PM
|
|
|
bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
|
here are some numbers.
let's say there are 125,000.00 houses of worship in the USA, although we know there are a lot more than that.
over the past four years, there have been 10 shootings in houses of worship in the USA. (GOOGLE)
that is about two per year.
divide 125,000.00 by two=62,500.
so your chances of someone walking into your church and shooting are pretty small.
Now, there is no way I can think of to calculate what the accidental shooting or rage or arguments type shooting would be if a percentage of congregations begin to bring guns to church, but common sense says that it would increase.
If your church has serious concerns about safety in this area, perhaps a detection device sweeping people for weapons as they enter the building would be more effective. And less deadly for those of us who have fellow church members we would not want to see with guns in services.
I certainly see the need for gun detection units if your church is in a high crime area, or has televised services that may attract nuts and kooks, or even an outreach to gang members .
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 5:12:22 PM
|
|
|
jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
So soldiers are murderers? Man, the liberal mind is fascinating.
Grow up. I already made the distinction between the individual and a military action so your point is just a transparent attempt at being insulting. A pretty poor one at that considering I maintain and support the second ammendment and a person's right to defend themselves. All I said was that killing in the name of self defense was still murder and still required attonement, even if man's law says you're innocent.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 7:13:59 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
David killing Goliath is different. For one it was a military situation, David was acting on behalf of God and Israel.
Hold on... Here's your blanket statement and you made a point that there were no exceptions...
Rememer Thou shalt not kill?I seem to recall that factoring into God's top ten list. I don't recall that ever being recinded or God saying Thou shalt not kill, unless....
quote:
Why are some so ready to jump to the defense of killing another person? It's wrong. God did not say Thou shalt not kill, unless it's in self defense. It's still murder, even if it's in self defense. It still requires attonement and forgiveness.
It's not murder...
Exodus 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 7:20:13 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
My problem isn't self defense, it's the ease at which so many seem to advocate killing in the name of self defense. You can defend yourself, as an individual, wihtout killing. It's still murder and still requires attonement .
Wrong...
Exodus 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
quote:
Yes Christ said to obey the laws of the land, unless said law conflicts with God's. Taking a life should never be treated that lightly, by anyone. It's a serious thing because the person that dies, if they aren't a Christian, has just lost their chance for redemption, and that for sure isn't to be take lightly.
Is there a verse that speaks to the issue of those who don't believe having their chance at redemption being swiped away? For something serious I can't recall anything being said about it...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 7:24:38 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
All I said was that killing in the name of self defense was still murder and still required attonement, even if man's law says you're innocent.
And you are wrong... It's not murder... Jesus was murdered, the thieves were put to death... David murdered Uriah, and he killed Goliath..
The distinction isn't simply military action, which you at first didn't make an exception for, but what is or isn't just...
John
Exodus 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Unitarian Church in TN Assaulted by Gunman; 1 dead,... - 7/29/2008 8:10:57 PM
|
|
|
colliefan
Posts: 2784
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
With the current situations of churches being "shot-up" and robbed of offerings, the only solution is to have armed guards (or parishoners with weapon permits)
Somehow, I strongly doubt that Jesus would approve of His believers carrying weapons in His Father's house.
Luke 22:35 - 38 (HCSB) 35He also said to them, “When I sent you out£ without money-bag, traveling bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Not a thing,” they said. 36Then He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one. 37For I tell you, what is written must be fulfilled in Me: And He was counted among the outlaws.£ Yes, what is written about Me is coming to its fulfillment.”£ 38“Lord,” they said, “look, here are two swords.” “Enough of that!”£ He told them.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
