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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/1/2008 8:24:23 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Maybe I should start calling myself a Prophet and or an Apostle. Perhaps even both? Hmm.. it has a nice ring to it. Lord knows you and others would then probably pay heed to almost anything I could mutter. Leaving the personal attack (and hence, a surrender of debate) aside, I should point out that I have repeatedly said that there is a difference between having a title on a business card and actually BEING something. Why is it that when I defend the character of someone, I must necessarily take everything they say without thinking? There is something that the church is lacking severely, and it's called "civil disagreement"... this is better known as humility. I can disagree with someone without calling them heretic, decieved, deluded, or whatever epithets we desire to throw around. Certainly, I disagree with Price's doctrine, and I especially disagree with calling him an Apostle because there isn't the accompanying witness of the spirit to his preaching. However, I am not willing to condemn him as a demon in a human body either.
So no... if you were to start calling yourself an Apostle and/or Prophet, it wouldn't make me "pay heed to almost anything you could mutter".quote:
Well earthless, you do know that there are schools you can go to to become a "prophet".
Try taking "Thus Saith the Lord 101"
See?
Try Googling "School of Prophets" So learning the Biblical foundations of prophecy and how to hear God for yourself is ........ a bad thing? Based on the hour in which we live, it would seem like wisdom to me. Imagine, while the whole world is freaking about because of the end-times, and people are being thrown in prison, you can be one of the greatest evangelists of all time... just by being able to recognize the voice of God. A general dislike of the Charismatic movement seems to be bleeding over into this discussion... which is alright. Evangelicalism is indeed the "ST" religion.quote:
Well, that likely opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, regarding Adam and IHOP. After all, IHOP has a "Healing and Prophecy" program at Forerunner School of Ministry. As delightful of an off-topic diversion that would be, suffice it to say "see above".quote:
As far as someone being a "denominational leader" serving as a criteria for bringing godly correction and admontioning...I honestly find no biblical grounds for this. I do see your point...that it may be more readily received from someone to whom they regard as a spiritual authority, especially from someone from among there peer group. My point was not denominationalism as a whole. My point is that it is those that are our spiritual authorities that have the right to correct us for our doctrines. In the denominational structure, that would be people above us. In the Catholic structure, it would be a cardinal correcting monks and priests, bishops correcting cardinals, and on up the list. It may not be the best organization of the church, but based on what we got it is up to denominational leadership to correct a pastor. That's why Carlton Pearson switched denominations... his leadership cracked down on him (a little bit) and he switched to a "friendlier" denomination. Just like Paul (Apostle) told Timothy (a Pastor) to watch out for specific doctrines in his church, pastors fall under their spiritual leaders.
Like Paul said in Romans, who are you to judge another man's servant? It is to his own master that he stands or falls.quote:
But I agree, this should fall up under the WoF one-stop thread. Absolutely agreed.quote:
Does anyone have a comment regarding Fred Price's comment about following the examples of a 'rich Jesus'? Jesus was God incarnate... He was the richest human alive because all the earth belonged to Him. However, God, who is infinitely wealthy (even beyond the earth) became, by comparison, infinitely poor by becoming a man. As I have said... Price's doctrine ain't clean as a whistle. But (A) nobody else's is either, and (B) citing a WoF preacher for doctrinal errors is like finding a Russian in Russia. I also notice that none of my above arguments have been adressed.quote:
I noticed that you prefaced Price with "Apostle" (capital A). Could you please explain to us how his qualifications to be a foundational Apostle?
Has he been witness to the risen Christ (A)The issue with this argument is much larger than merely Fred Price calling himself an Apostle... but rather how you believe that the only Apostles are the 12-14 "Foundational Apostles" even though there are 14 guys called "Apostle" in the New Testament, and only 12 have their names on foundations in the New Jerusalem. (B) Every Christian is witness to the risen Christ... otherwise we are dead in our sins still.quote:
Evidence please? Post #15....quote:
However I would say that most of the hard core teachers of this movement. Esspecially the higher up well known ones, are NOT saved because they are teaching a Christ and a gospel that is unknown to the bible.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/1/2008 8:55:33 PM
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earthless
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Adam,
Why would you pay heed to other self-titled Apostles and Prophets and not me? What if Wagner gave me his blessing? Something I could have the NAR do publically in under a week if I were to sell out today, trust me. Bickle would have me at IHOP within a week on the platform being prayed for.
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/1/2008 9:43:00 PM
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BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 365
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Fred Price, man . . never liked his preaching. So much bad doctrine out there where do we begin????
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Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/2/2008 3:59:33 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 956
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
Why would you pay heed to other self-titled Apostles and Prophets and not me? This is off-topic and a veiled attempt at a personal attack. The debate, it seems, is fully over. As I said, there needs to be a witness of the spirit to back up the title, or it is worthless. Also, the people SEEKING a title are usually the least likely to actually deserve it.quote:
What if Wagner gave me his blessing? Something I could have the NAR do publically in under a week if I were to sell out today, trust me. What Pete Wagner does is his business. Who I believe is telling the truth is mine.quote:
Bickle would have me at IHOP within a week on the platform being prayed for. Cute.......... but highly untrue. Most (as in, 95%) of the guests who appear on the platform at one of our church services have personal relationships with Bickle stretching back into his Metro Fellowship days. So take the angst elsewhere.quote:
Fred Price, man . . never liked his preaching. So much bad doctrine out there where do we begin???? How about with actual doctrine? That would be a refreshing change.
And, for all intents and purposes, the debate is over......
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/2/2008 9:59:35 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6201
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Adam,
You're a young guy - are you always this serious brother?
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/2/2008 10:14:59 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
How about with actual doctrine?
"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God."
(Fred Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger June 1980)
"If you've got one-dollar faith and you ask for a ten-thousand-dollar item, it ain't going to work. It won't work. Jesus said, "according to your faith," not according to God's will for you, in His own good time, if it's according to His will, if He can work it into His busy schedule (see him mocking God and mocking the concept of God's will). He said, "According to your faith, be it unto you." Now, I may want a Rolls Royce, and don't have but bicycle faith. Guess what I'm going to get? A bicycle."
(Fred Price, "Praise The Lord," TBN, September 21, 1990)
"The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see-to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps."
(Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith - audio clip of this was posted on page 1)
"We need to realize that when God tells us to believe that we receive what we pray for, it is because what we are praying for is already in existence in the spirit world. Our believing we receive what we pray for causes that thing to come out of the spirit world into this physical world. I like to refer to this as the duality of existence. Everything exists in two forms -- first of all in spirit form, then in physical manifestation form. It is faith that makes the transfer from the spirit world into the physical world. Your healing is there, your new home is there, your new car is there, peace is there, and deliverance for your children is there. But you have to reach out into that spirit world and claim your Covenant by saying, "In the name of Jesus, I believe that I receive it." Maintain that confession, keep standing by faith on God's Word, and the thing you are believing for will come to pass in your life."
(Dr. Fred Price, "Have Confidence In God," Weekly Message June 27-July 1, 2005. His website)
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
That would be a refreshing change.
Change? It has been done for every individual whose teachings are tested.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
And, for all intents and purposes, the debate is over......
Adam
Maybe for you, so take care. But the thread remains and the topic is on-going. No need to hinder unsuspecting people from paying heed to false teachers like Fred Price - that is a serious problem and consequence to deal with later for those who do that.
Jesus said it is better for you to take a rock, tie it around your neck, and throw yourself into the water (mobster style) than to cause one of His to stumble. And by remaining silent or blocking the prevention of false doctrines, heretical teachings, and absurd claims being presented as God's Holy Truth - that is exactly what one would be guilty of.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/2/2008 10:29:09 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6201
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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My friend sent me the following and I found it apt for this current point of discussion:
"Look if God has given you an allotment to watch over please talk to them about such foolishness.
We can’t leave people in the dark. We can’t stick our heads in the sand and say “it will all go away” these churches are growing and people are getting duped by the millions.
They are investing their souls into the hands of these wolves and we are letting them by saying “we don’t want to debate” (debate is over) that is exactly what we want to do.
Just think if you saw someone walking into a burning building holding a newborn baby would you sit casually by saying “oh, I don’t want to be forceful”? Way too many people don’t understand the deadly venom these men release into their veins and most won’t know if we don’t say anything."
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/3/2008 3:55:14 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 956
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
Adam,
You're a young guy - are you always this serious brother? Only when pressed to it. I don't take the terms "heretic", "false teacher", or "wolf" lightly... and I seriously doubt God does either.
However, if you were merely jesting about how "selling out" to Peter Wagner would put you "on stage" with IHOP-KC (ie, my home), it was in very poor taste.quote:
"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God."
(Fred Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger June 1980)
"If you've got one-dollar faith and you ask for a ten-thousand-dollar item, it ain't going to work. It won't work. Jesus said, "according to your faith," not according to God's will for you, in His own good time, if it's according to His will, if He can work it into His busy schedule (see him mocking God and mocking the concept of God's will). He said, "According to your faith, be it unto you." Now, I may want a Rolls Royce, and don't have but bicycle faith. Guess what I'm going to get? A bicycle."
(Fred Price, "Praise The Lord," TBN, September 21, 1990)
"The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see-to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps."
(Fred Price, "Ever Increasing Faith - audio clip of this was posted on page 1)
"We need to realize that when God tells us to believe that we receive what we pray for, it is because what we are praying for is already in existence in the spirit world. Our believing we receive what we pray for causes that thing to come out of the spirit world into this physical world. I like to refer to this as the duality of existence. Everything exists in two forms -- first of all in spirit form, then in physical manifestation form. It is faith that makes the transfer from the spirit world into the physical world. Your healing is there, your new home is there, your new car is there, peace is there, and deliverance for your children is there. But you have to reach out into that spirit world and claim your Covenant by saying, "In the name of Jesus, I believe that I receive it." Maintain that confession, keep standing by faith on God's Word, and the thing you are believing for will come to pass in your life."
(Dr. Fred Price, "Have Confidence In God," Weekly Message June 27-July 1, 2005. His website)
As I said several times ealier... Congratulations, you found a WoF preacher with typical WoF errors. Russians are quite renowned for living in Russia...quote:
Change? It has been done for every individual whose teachings are tested. Actually not. Usually what happens is everybody agrees that the person who is the topic of discussion is a heretic and utter fruitcake, until someone like me wanders in and begins to defend the character that is being assassinated. Then we MIGHT roll around to their specific doctrines, but it takes a while to get there. The above quotes are the first time we have actually discussed specific teachings of Fred Price (who I already said I disagree with) in this entire discussion. As I also said earlier, I disagree with Price's doctrine, but I dislike the assassinating of character... especially of people that none of us here personally know.quote:
Maybe for you, so take care. I didn't end the debate. You did when you switched topics from Fred Price and his doctrines to me and IHOP-KC. So, if you intend to continue this discussion (with me, anyway), I will politely request that we keep the topic off of me and my job. Please and thank you.quote:
Jesus said it is better for you to take a rock, tie it around your neck, and throw yourself into the water (mobster style) than to cause one of His to stumble. And by remaining silent or blocking the prevention of false doctrines, heretical teachings, and absurd claims being presented as God's Holy Truth - that is exactly what one would be guilty of. Once again, this is directed at me and not the topic... which in debate circles is a forfeiture of debate and credibility. As I also said much, MUCH earlier, feel free to debate doctrine all day. What I specifically disagree with is the slaying of another Christian for the sake of our self-righteousness.
"Oh Lord! Thank you that you have not made me like this heathen tax collecter!" Let's avoid that at all costs. Just a humble opinion.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/3/2008 9:52:30 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6201
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Only when pressed to it. I don't take the terms "heretic", "false teacher", or "wolf" lightly... and I seriously doubt God does either.
That is why I make sure to never use them lightly but only when the evidence is in and Scripture shows it is what it is. I am not Switzerland in naming something for what it is.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
However, if you were merely jesting about how "selling out" to Peter Wagner would put you "on stage" with IHOP-KC (ie, my home), it was in very poor taste.
Adam - I have been to IHOP a good number of times, know your pastor personally, and may even be heading back there this fall. My mother in law is there quite often when she makes her rounds across the country.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
As I said several times ealier... Congratulations, you found a WoF preacher with typical WoF errors. Russians are quite renowned for living in Russia...
Is that not what your gripe was about? You asked for some doctrinal points of Price's and here are some that should have any discerning Christian do a major double take.
You admit his statements above are error, would you even say serious error that can lead to other serious errors? Error begets error.
If these type of threads bother you so much, if they cause you to get upset, etc.. if you agree they are preaching error as you just did above - why do you bother visiting the threads? Seriously asking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Actually not. Usually what happens is everybody agrees that the person who is the topic of discussion is a heretic and utter fruitcake, until someone like me wanders in and begins to defend the character that is being assassinated. Then we MIGHT roll around to their specific doctrines, but it takes a while to get there.
I can speak for my own posts and threads - I always present a reason why the charge is made, unless a plethora of evidence has already been made then I will simply add my support to the situation at hand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The above quotes are the first time we have actually discussed specific teachings of Fred Price (who I already said I disagree with) in this entire discussion. As I also said earlier, I disagree with Price's doctrine, but I dislike the assassinating of character... especially of people that none of us here personally know.
I personally know Price and have been to Crenshaw in the past. But that is absolutely besides the point when the individual has a public ministry. There is no biblical precedent that supports your wanting of silence for individuals whose teachings are massive/public.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
Maybe for you, so take care. I didn't end the debate. You did when you switched topics from Fred Price and his doctrines to me and IHOP-KC. So, if you intend to continue this discussion (with me, anyway), I will politely request that we keep the topic off of me and my job. Please and thank you.
Considering you left the one stop IHOP thread where I had some questions I kept asking you.. you ignored it and it has dropped off the radar. Well, I guess there are things you do not want to either face up to or discuss. Your choice, but it speaks volumes to many here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, this is directed at me and not the topic... which in debate circles is a forfeiture of debate and credibility. As I also said much, MUCH earlier, feel free to debate doctrine all day. What I specifically disagree with is the slaying of another Christian for the sake of our self-righteousness.
"Oh Lord! Thank you that you have not made me like this heathen tax collecter!" Let's avoid that at all costs. Just a humble opinion.
Adam
Opinion received, Adam. Simple question - do you feel that any and all discussion and judging of a person's public teachings, claims, practices to be in the realm of "character assassination?
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/3/2008 8:33:43 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 956
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
That is why I make sure to never use them lightly but only when the evidence is in and Scripture shows it is what it is. I am not Switzerland in naming something for what it is.
I am very hesitant to using titles such as that. Why? Because what happens if when we get to heaven we find out we were wrong? I never want to be guilty of calling someone a heretic who actually was right. Since I know that I am a fallen man, prone to errors of my own, I am more than willing to admit that my judgement of what something "is" might be completely wrong.
Also, as I stated earlier, it is to his own master that a servant stands or falls.quote:
Adam - I have been to IHOP a good number of times, know your pastor personally, and may even be heading back there this fall. My mother in law is there quite often when she makes her rounds across the country. Congratulations. I made no statements about your knowledge or lack therof of that particular topic. I said that it was off-topic and a surrender of debate to shift topics. Basically, I'm not impressed by pedigree.quote:
Is that not what your gripe was about? You asked for some doctrinal points of Price's and here are some that should have any discerning Christian do a major double take.
You admit his statements above are error, would you even say serious error that can lead to other serious errors? Error begets error.
If these type of threads bother you so much, if they cause you to get upset, etc.. if you agree they are preaching error as you just did above - why do you bother visiting the threads? Seriously asking. I say what I mean to say... most of the time. I did not ask for Price's talking points. I merely said that we can all disagree that He is wrong, why not let it stay there rather than assassinating his character?
Yes, his doctrine is wrong. That is what I said, that is what I meant to say, and that is all I will say.
I'm not upset by these threads. It's not like it turns my stomache. Rather, I find it a betrayal of "Christian charity" to find someone with "off-doctrine" and then single that person out to the whipping post of public opinion. Because Christ Himself called us to be meek and humble, as did Paul, James, and John, it seems a direct betrayal of that call to think ourselves righteous enough to pass unblemished judgement on another human being. We are so careful with our words to the unsaved, and then show less restraint when dealing with each other. Maybe it is just my pride that makes me want to defend the character of those being debated... but I would rather go down standing between accusers and victims than sitting on the sidelines letting pseudoreligious zeal run amok. As I continue to say, debate doctrine all day... but let's leave the character assassination out of it.quote:
There is no biblical precedent that supports your wanting of silence for individuals whose teachings are massive/public. SEE ABOVE BOLDED STATEMENT! There is a serious difference between the two, as I have already said at least twice in this thread.quote:
Considering you left the one stop IHOP thread where I had some questions I kept asking you.. you ignored it and it has dropped off the radar. Well, I guess there are things you do not want to either face up to or discuss. Your choice, but it speaks volumes to many here. (A) There is no "One Stop Thread" for IHOP-KC (as far as I remember, anyway) (B) You were asking questions regardless of what I said... even if I answered you, you would ask the same question again. (C) In those threads, you must understand that I tend to get bludgeoned from all sides... so if a couple of posts slip through the cracks, you do have my sincere apologies. (D) If I specifically ignore a question, ther eis a reason, so double-posting does nothing for me. (E) If you want a tit-for-tat discussion on what I think, feel free to IM me... otherwise lets not burden the whole community with the skirmish. So, as I said, please take the angst elsewhere.quote:
Simple question - do you feel that any and all discussion and judging of a person's public teachings, claims, practices to be in the realm of "character assassination? When the discussion centers around a person rather than doctrine, yes I do. If you want to discuss doctrine, and cite a person as an example... fine. If you are wanting to bash another person and then pull up their doctrines to support a prefabricated premise, that is character assassination. Much the same as saying "all conservatives are racists..." and then pulling up a comment by an election board official in Texas who used the dreaded "N" word as proof. Let me give an example....
quote:
I believe the WoF to be in error because they teach that Jesus went to Hell to pay for the sins of man. For example, Fred Price said..... Compare that to...
quote:
Fred Price is a typical WoF heretic. After all, he said... Now, you tell me. Which one is talking about doctrine and which is talking about a judgement of an individual?
Why is the difference in semantics important? The first example thesis is a self-report-- which logically can't be refuted-- that then uses examples and proof to substanitate it. I can't aruge that you believe the WoF to be in error... partly because I do too, but mostly because I am not in your head, so I can't say you are lying. I CAN argue with the proof to substantiate your self-report as faulty or not representative, thus proving your mental concept is incorrect, but your self-report is going to be true.
The second example thesis is an absolute statement, which CAN be logically refuted, which then uses "proof" that largely mirrors gossip to substanitate the already made judgement. In this example, we never get off of square one because we have to debate the judgementalist absolute statement that started off the discussion before even getting to the validation of the proof. Secondly, if you have already made a judgement, then there is no point in even talking to you about it because you have already made up your mind.
So... why do you object to someone defending a character that is being assassinated? The only Biblical examples of someone being openly corrected for false doctrine are (A) Jesus correcting Pharisees that challenged His honor and authority (thus implying that they were worthy of more honor and authority that Jesus), (B) The Apostles directing the entire church, and (C) the Apostles warning against those who were physically persecuting the Church.
Notice that when Apollos was preaching in error, Priscilla and her Husband (directors of the church in the area) pulled him aside to "instruct him more fully". They didn't walk out into the square with torn robes screaming "HERESY!" They corrected the man in a private setting, and sent him out to preach the truth.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/3/2008 8:53:32 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6201
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I am very hesitant to using titles such as that. Why? Because what happens if when we get to heaven we find out we were wrong?
The only way that could happen is if we get to heaven and find out the Bible is wrong.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Because Christ Himself called us to be meek and humble, as did Paul, James, and John, it seems a direct betrayal of that call to think ourselves righteous enough to pass unblemished judgement on another human being.
Neither Jesus, nor the Apostle Paul, nor the disciples were meek and humble when calling out false teachers and false prophets.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Notice that when Apollos was preaching in error, Priscilla and her Husband (directors of the church in the area) pulled him aside to "instruct him more fully". They didn't walk out into the square with torn robes screaming "HERESY!" They corrected the man in a private setting, and sent him out to preach the truth.
Adam
I have attempted to privately do that with the following:
Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Fred Price, Rod Parsley, Paula White, Joel Osteen, and a host of others - only one (Benny Hinn) actually sat down with me and had dinner and repented of his Word of Faith teachings - but the bulk of them then went on TV and blasted me and my family with death curses and foul words of death.
Paula and Joel have also spent time with me privately but they continue to teach what they do. I was kicked out of Price's church by a deacon who recognized me after the service.
There is indeed a biblical precedent for public teachers to be rebuked/corrected/judged publically. I am sure you have seen that context presented here on these boards before.
Your earlier comment about possibly being wrong is troublesome - why? Because that is an approach one would take if we didn't have the completed Word of God to know the difference. Yet we do.
< Message edited by earthless -- 8/3/2008 9:04:49 PM >
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/3/2008 9:13:42 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6201
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Adam,
Another thing I do want to say to you - what I do is judge their teachings, claims, and practices in light of Scripture. I am not assassinating their personal character, their family, their salvation. You act as if I am wanting to physically hurt them or whatnot, not so. My heart goes to them to stop teaching such things, repent, and actually use their platforms for God's Word.
Nobody's teachings or practices are beyond biblical judgment especially influential leaders. Biblically, authority and accountability go hand in hand (Luke 12:48). The greater the responsibility one holds, the greater the accountability one has before God and His people.
Teachers should be extremely careful not to mislead any believer, for their calling carries with it a strict judgment (James 3:1). They should therefore be grateful when sincere Christians take the time to correct whatever erroneous doctrine they may be preaching to the masses.
And should the criticisms be unfounded they should respond in the manner prescribed by Scripture: to correct misguided doctrinal opposition with gentle instruction (2 Timothy 2:25).
There is of course another side to this issue that you have aptly brought up: criticism often can be sinful, leading to rebellion and unnecessary division. Christians should respect the leaders that God has given them (Hebrews 13:17).
Theirs is the task of assisting the church in its spiritual growth and doctrinal understanding (Ephesians 4:11-16). At the same time believers should be aware that false teachers will arise among the Christian fold (Acts 20:28; 2 Peter 2:1).
The following quote came to mind when thinking about what you said:
quote:
The reason why so many Christians today think that they don't have a right to judge anyone is because they have been indoctrinated with the worldly teaching of "tolerance."
To the world tolerance means that truth is subjective, and there is no absolute truth. This means no one has to right to tell someone else that they are wrong, because one person's opinion is just as good as someone else's.
Therefore we hear such things as, "who are you to judge me, or to tell me if I am right or wrong?"
According to the latest statistics (The New Tolerance, by Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler, pages 173-174) 50% of Christians youth do not believe that an objective standard of truth exists, while 53% of the adults do not believe in absolute truth; Two-thirds of the 70% of Americans who say it is important to follow the teachings of the Bible reject moral absolutes.
This is why many Christians today think that no one has the right to say anything to them, because that is judging them. When you bring this attitude into the church you have to ignore the Scriptures, because they do teach that there are absolute truths.
Scriptures plainly teaches that believers are not to walk around blindly, ignoring sinful behavior or false teaching; and if we do then we are in direct conflict with clear teaching of God's Word. Christians need to take to heart the words of Peter and other apostles in Acts 5:29 when told that we are not to judge anyone, "...We ought to obey God rather than men."
Christians, nor churches can afford to ignore God's Word and turn a blind eye to those who propagate the false teaching that no Christian has a right to judge another.
To do so will only lead to confusion and division among the church body, and shows a contempt for God's Word. But we must also acknowledge that when it comes to judging, we need to always check our motives before we say something to another believer.
If what we are doing is not based squarely upon God's Word and a love for our brother or sister in Christ, then it is best to keep our mouths shut. - Joseph M. Willmouth
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/4/2008 1:25:26 AM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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Adam,
First, I'd like to cede a point to you; often times you've mentioned that posters her can be less then sensitive. I will concur that on occasion a few people have lacked humility and civility in their posts and have either intentionally or otherwise fallen into self righteousness. I will however note that I believe that if this has been the case most of the aforementioned posters have asked for Gods forgiveness. In other words, I believe that almost all posters on this particular forum come with pure hearts and intentions and motivation. For those of us who find this topic compelling, it hurts us that so many good people are being so deceived and combined with prayer, warning anyone who we can reach via this method is an awesome outlet.
Now, to my main points. Please clarify something for me; Time and again I see you, in numerous posts refer to those who preach the WOF doctrine as "fellow Christians" and state that you're quite hesitant to call them out due to the possibility that you may be wrong. Do you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God; and if yes, how could you be wrong by pointing out said preachers doctrine that is contradictory to the Word on which you stand firm? Secondly how are they our Christian brothers if they're preaching a gospel that is again, contradictory to the Bible? In other words how far does ones doctrine need to be amiss for the person preaching said doctrine for you not to consider them "brothers in Christ"? Mormons, JW's, are they your brothers? Keep in mind, we're not talking about topics that aren't salvation dependent, i.e tongues, raising hands during worship, etc. but topics as important as salvation itself and the attaining of it as wells as how it was delivered. Now please understand I'm being neither condescending not facetious, I really want to know your opinions on these questions. Thanks
P.S. Keep in mind, I was brought up in the WOF cult and believed so many things that I assumed were Biblical because I was simply told that they were. Praise God that I actually started testing doctrine in light of Scripture. Oh, and, yes, I'm still a charismatic Christian, but God is a God of order. Would you be willing to walk away from everything that you thought was true, if you found out that the Bible clearly said otherwise? Many of us have and many of us are convinced that if you tested what you're being taught @ IHOP against scripture, you'd have but only one choice; the same that we made. In Christs love, Sonrise
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/4/2008 5:28:57 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 956
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
The only way that could happen is if we get to heaven and find out the Bible is wrong. Correction... we get to heaven and find out our interpretation/application of scripture is wrong.quote:
Neither Jesus, nor the Apostle Paul, nor the disciples were meek and humble when calling out false teachers and false prophets. Quite on the contrary, they were. Jesus, remember, was God incarnate. It was an act of infinite humility to take on our form at all, and an even bigger act of humility to speak to any one of us. The Apostle Paul, was acting in his office as an apostle, meaning that it was not pride that drove him to call out the few individiuals that he did. The same is true of the other apostles who did the same.quote:
I have attempted to privately do that with the following:
Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Fred Price, Rod Parsley, Paula White, Joel Osteen, and a host of others - only one (Benny Hinn) actually sat down with me and had dinner and repented of his Word of Faith teachings - but the bulk of them then went on TV and blasted me and my family with death curses and foul words of death. And I would say that unless you are a spiritual authority over them (ie, Apostle or Prophet), you are overstepping your bounds to do so. If I am an internationally known minister, I am busy enough that I don't have time to spend with every person who disagrees with me.quote:
I am sure you have seen that context presented here on these boards before. Yes I have, and I have presented the same objections time and again, only to be told that I was a simpleton with no burden or zeal for truth. So it is not I who have a lack of argument.quote:
Your earlier comment about possibly being wrong is troublesome - why? Because that is an approach one would take if we didn't have the completed Word of God to know the difference. Yet we do. No, it is a comment based in my reality as a fallen human being who approaches the Bible with my own unknown biases, filters, and blind spots. Based on this, I cannot trust myself to have the 100% unblemished truth in my doctrines and theology. It would be pride to say otherwise.quote:
Another thing I do want to say to you - what I do is judge their teachings, claims, and practices in light of Scripture. I am not assassinating their personal character, their family, their salvation. You act as if I am wanting to physically hurt them or whatnot, not so. My heart goes to them to stop teaching such things, repent, and actually use their platforms for God's Word. But judging teachings, claims, and practices "in the light of scripture" tends to mean "I use my proof-texts to infer the validation of a ministry and the salvation of the preachers". That is character assassination. Even the WoF movement has something to teach the larger Evangelical church... your words carry power.quote:
Nobody's teachings or practices are beyond biblical judgment especially influential leaders. I never said they were. But there is a difference between evaluating a doctrine, and evaluating a person. I would much rather keep this in the realm of evaluating doctrines.quote:
Teachers should be extremely careful not to mislead any believer, for their calling carries with it a strict judgment (James 3:1). They should therefore be grateful when sincere Christians take the time to correct whatever erroneous doctrine they may be preaching to the masses. Funny... you aren't "grateful" when I try to correcting anything... I guess I've already been labled a WoF-loving-fruitcake, eh?quote:
And now that the usual song and dance is done.. If you say sooo.......  quote:
Time and again I see you, in numerous posts refer to those who preach the WOF doctrine as "fellow Christians" and state that you're quite hesitant to call them out due to the possibility that you may be wrong. Do you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God; and if yes, how could you be wrong by pointing out said preachers doctrine that is contradictory to the Word on which you stand firm? Yes, the Bible is the infallibale word of God. I can be wrong because what I'm actually presenting is my understanding of the Word of God... because I have to take the information in the Bible and make an application to everyday life, that is where the disconnect begins.quote:
Secondly how are they our Christian brothers if they're preaching a gospel that is again, contradictory to the Bible? Once again, is their Gospel contradicting the BIBLE or our UNDERSTANDING of the Bible? That is my point.quote:
In other words how far does ones doctrine need to be amiss for the person preaching said doctrine for you not to consider them "brothers in Christ"? Mormons, JW's, are they your brothers? Keep in mind, we're not talking about topics that aren't salvation dependent, i.e tongues, raising hands during worship, etc. but topics as important as salvation itself and the attaining of it as wells as how it was delivered. Now please understand I'm being neither condescending not facetious, I really want to know your opinions on these questions. Thanks I cannot speak for every individual preacher. There are heretics in the WoF group, just like there are heretics in the Evangelical cirlce, the Charismatic circle, the Catholic circle... but you specifically asked a quantitative question.
There is not way to quantitatively measure "5 is heresey but 4 is only error". As someone who has read and been under the core teaching of WoF before, I know that it is wrong. Not heretical (as in, won't lead you to hell), but still wrong. I do not believe that Mormons or JW are in fact Christians. But that is a far cry from the WoF group.quote:
Oh, and, yes, I'm still a charismatic Christian, but God is a God of order. Would you be willing to walk away from everything that you thought was true, if you found out that the Bible clearly said otherwise? Many of us have and many of us are convinced that if you tested what you're being taught @ IHOP against scripture, you'd have but only one choice; the same that we made. God is a God of order... however, His idea of order may not be exactly the same as our highly compartmentalised Western idea of order.
(A) IHOP-KC is not WoF
(B) Yes I would be willing to walk away from everything I thought was true if God showed me otherwise... because I've already done so a couple of times. I wouldn't do so just because somebody told me I was wrong, but if God told me, yes I would.
(C) I reject the idea that I have not fled IHOP-KC with outstretched arms because I "have failed to do the dilligence" on it. I have actually seen more scriptural support for the prayer room and prayer movement in general than I have for "more traditional" church structures. It's belittling at least, and downright offensive due to it's implications at the worst.
PS, yes, this would count as a shift of debate topic...
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/4/2008 6:45:14 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2009
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
PS, yes, this would count as a shift of debate topic...
Maybe so, but...Adam...you're not the forum police!
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/4/2008 7:09:24 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
And I would say that unless you are a spiritual authority over them (ie, Apostle or Prophet), you are overstepping your bounds to do so. Adam
Those offices as you define them above do not exist anymore. There is no Apostle or Prophet living today that has spiritual AUTHORITY over anyone. Attempting to exercise authority like that is no different than the RCC and their pope
That is the crux of this conversation. People like Fred Price, and others like C Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Todd Bentley, etc claim to hold the "office" of Apostle and/or Prophet. The "office" they claim to occupy ceased in the first century when the canon of Scripture was closed.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Ladies and Gentleman, Here is Apostle Fred Price!!! - 8/4/2008 11:28:10 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 150
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
The only way that could happen is if we get to heaven and find out the Bible is wrong. Correction... we get to heaven and find out our interpretation/application of scripture is wrong.quote:
Neither Jesus, nor the Apostle Paul, nor the disciples were meek and humble when calling out false teachers and false prophets. Quite on the contrary, they were. Jesus, remember, was God incarnate. It was an act of infinite humility to take on our form at all, and an even bigger act of humility to speak to any one of us. The Apostle Paul, was acting in his office as an apostle, meaning that it was not pride that drove him to call out the few individiuals that he did. The same is true of the other apostles who did the same.quote:
I have attempted to privately do that with the following:
Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Fred Price, Rod Parsley, Paula White, Joel Osteen, and a host of others - only one (Benny Hinn) actually sat down with me and had dinner and repented of his Word of Faith teachings - but the bulk of them then went on TV and blasted me and my family with death curses and foul words of death. And I would say that unless you are a spiritual authority over them (ie, Apostle or Prophet), you are overstepping your bounds to do so. If I am an internationally known minister, I am busy enough that I don't have time to spend with every person who disagrees with me.quote:
I am sure you have seen that context presented here on these boards before. Yes I have, and I have presented the same objections time and again, only to be told that I was a simpleton with no burden or zeal for truth. So it is not I who have a lack of argument.quote:
Your earlier comment about possibly being wrong is troublesome - why? Because that is an approach one would take if we didn't have the completed Word of God to know the difference. Yet we do. No, it is a comment based in my reality as a fallen human being who approaches the Bible with my own unknown biases, filters, and blind spots. Based on this, I cannot trust myself to have the 100% unblemished truth in my doctrines and theology. It would be pride to say otherwise.quote:
Another thing I do want to say to you - what I do is judge their teachings, claims, and practices in light of Scripture. I am not assassinating their personal character, their family, their salvation. You act as if I am wanting to physically hurt them or whatnot, not so. My heart goes | | |
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