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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 12:30:40 AM
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Annie64
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I agree with you, DrMark, but I'd also add that there is a question of motive. Before, I tried to live up to the standards (and I agree that there is a Biblical standard) because I thought God would erase my name from the Lamb's Book of Life if I didn't. I had a faulty understanding of God, as well as a greater love for myself than for God. I wanted to make sure I got to heaven and didn't go to hell. I wasn't thinking so much about being with Him.
Yes, you're definitely right about it being about whether we are trying in our own efforts or not, but why we're trying at all makes a lot of difference, to, IMO.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 12:40:57 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Okay, I haven't heard the word "standards" since I left the old church, and I never thought about the fact that other religions use that word as well. I know how the old church defined standards, but various belief systems have their own definitions for many common words. How is standard defined by those in the Wesleyan doctrine, because you have both lost me!! 
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 1:27:06 AM
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Annie64
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Okay, I'm thinking. A standard a code of behavior derived from the Bible. For example, when the Bible says not to bear false witness, and when it says to put off lying and speak truthfully with our neighbor, we say the standard is to tell the truth and not to lie. Does that make sense?
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 1:29:54 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Oh, wow! Really?!? Yeah, that was not at all the definition the old church used. And standards were a big issue there, too!
Um, maybe I should have added what standards were there.
They had nothing whatsoever to do with sin; they were the little added rules, like no wedding rings, no women in pants, etc.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 1:50:47 AM
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Annie64
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Yes, that was called standards, too, but if you asked the right people, they would have told you they got them from the Bible. It might have been a stretch, but that would be what they said. And according to their understanding, they'd have been telling the truth.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 2:04:33 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Annie64
Yes, that was called standards, too, but if you asked the right people, they would have told you they got them from the Bible. It might have been a stretch, but that would be what they said. And according to their understanding, they'd have been telling the truth.
Oh, yeah. I understand that. I recognize that I sound bitter, but they misinterpreted many Scriptures to suit their purposes, and when confronted about it, they called the confronter a trouble-maker. In fact, they informed us that their church was like a club, and they had a right to make the rules.
However, they never listed actual sins as standards, as your church does, and your church's idea makes more sense to me.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 8:54:18 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I agree with you, DrMark, but I'd also add that there is a question of motive. No doubt about it, Annie, this is the most important question used to define legalism! Are we following standards in order to demonstrate our love for God OR are we following them to show off to others just how "holy" we can appear on the outside? Obviously, legalism is the latter.
quote:
Before, I tried to live up to the standards (and I agree that there is a Biblical standard) because I thought God would erase my name from the Lamb's Book of Life if I didn't. It appears to me that you're confusing fear of denying OSAS doctrine with legalism. There are dozens of Scripture passages that Wesleyan/Holiness theologians use to support the possibility of falling away. Indeed, faulty OSAS doctrine is a recipe for antinomianism as I've already discussed. But the bottom line must always come back to how we live up to the standards. I submit that those who try in their own strength to meet man-made standards are really just showing off their legalism. Those who totally rely on the indwelling Love of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit have true eternal security in their Heavenly outcome!
quote:
Um, maybe I should have added what standards were there.
They had nothing whatsoever to do with sin; they were the little added rules, like no wedding rings, no women in pants, etc Those are not "standards", Abiyah, those are man-made rules or guidelines. However, many of these guidelines may prove very useful in maintaining true Biblical standards. For example (and not to get sidetracked), it is Scripturally commanded never to be drunk. There is only one sure way to meet this standard - do not drink alcoholic beverages. Thus, the prohibition against drinking in the special rules of the Church of the Nazarene (and I assume in the Wesleyan Church also). But if I show off my abstinence as a holier-than-thou attitude, then I am guilty of legalism! Make sense?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/10/2008 11:52:43 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Um, maybe I should have added what standards were there.
They had nothing whatsoever to do with sin; they were the little added rules, like no wedding rings, no women in pants, etc
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Those are not "standards", Abiyah, those are man-made rules or guidelines.
Correct, I am sure, in your understanding, but in their understanding, they were standards; other things to avoid were sins.
Since this is not a "biblical word," a word from some Bible translation, I accept that the word usage is correctly used in each church. It is just that I would more likely agree with the Wesleyan-type use of the word than I would with the old church's.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
However, many of these guidelines may prove very useful in maintaining true Biblical standards. For example (and not to get sidetracked), it is Scripturally commanded never to be drunk. There is only one sure way to meet this standard - do not drink alcoholic beverages. Thus, the prohibition against drinking in the special rules of the Church of the Nazarene (and I assume in the Wesleyan Church also). But if I show off my abstinence as a holier-than-thou attitude, then I am guilty of legalism! Make sense?
To me, perhaps because of the heavy-handedness and hard-heartedness of the old church, any added rule really chafes my hide. Oh, I smile, but I mean it. To me, added rules tell the congregation, "The H Spirit is not at work in your life to guide you, so we will be h spirit to you. Now, follow our rules, or you are just a hanger-on, a peripheral person, unimportant, a rogue."
I SO followed all the rules until I began to see the horror of deliberate sin in my church-mates! And then, the only rules I broke were going to college, giving my Sunday school students NIV Bibles, and refusing to remove my wedding band.
But the more I learn about Wesleyans, the more I see they are different from that church.
I kind of wish you had not brought up drinking as your example, Mark, because the Bible clearly suggests a little wine for stomach problems as well as other reasons for a little wine without drunkenness. I can't drink because of my illness. I have accepted that. Actually, I have welcomed that because, as I have mentioned, it tastes really nasty to me. But if these circumstances were different, I would have a little wine on Shabbat and other holy days.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/11/2008 1:10:37 AM
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Annie64
Posts: 927
Joined: 6/4/2007
From: Indianapolis, IN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Before, I tried to live up to the standards (and I agree that there is a Biblical standard) because I thought God would erase my name from the Lamb's Book of Life if I didn't. It appears to me that you're confusing fear of denying OSAS doctrine with legalism. There are dozens of Scripture passages that Wesleyan/Holiness theologians use to support the possibility of falling away. Indeed, faulty OSAS doctrine is a recipe for antinomianism as I've already discussed. But the bottom line must always come back to how we live up to the standards. I submit that those who try in their own strength to meet man-made standards are really just showing off their legalism. Those who totally rely on the indwelling Love of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit have true eternal security in their Heavenly outcome!
I guess I wasn't being clear. It wasn't a fear of denying OSAS doctrine, because I've never believed in it. And I wasn't (usually) a legalist to show off. Sometimes I was, because I wanted people to think well of me, but most of the time I was a legalist, when I was a legalist, because of what I heard one Wesleyan pastor call "eternal insecurity." I was a far worse legalist than my church taught, because I was afraid of losing my salvation at the first sign of sin. People kept telling me that God wasn't standing over me with a big stick just waiting to kick me out, but that never helped because I never thought that He was. I just thought He would disown me if I sinned, not that He wanted to. I thought I would make Him have to. It took a while to learn that He really did have me and was perfectly able to keep me.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/11/2008 8:33:14 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I kind of wish you had not brought up drinking as your example, Mark, because the Bible clearly suggests a little wine for stomach problems as well as other reasons for a little wine without drunkenness. Actually, I think it's a perfect example because it shows a man-made interpretation of Scripture (avoid drinking) based on a sincere desire to avoid Scriptural sin (willful disobedience by becoming drunk). I subject myself to the authority of my denominational rules not because I believe it to be sin to disobey them, but because these rules are intended to encourage and enable holy living which is commanded throughout the Bible. I fully understand that it becomes a fine line between avoiding even the appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22)and the pursuit of legalism. By the grace of God, I will discern the difference in my own life.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/12/2008 5:27:01 PM
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drmark
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Okay that you now think it's a good example or okay that you believe G-d's grace can help us discern holy living from legalism?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Any Wesleyans out there? - 8/12/2008 7:01:16 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Simply "Okay" that this is your answer, Mark.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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