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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 8:00:57 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
How so? If a person's political views are in conflict with their faith we just to shrug our shoulders and act as if it doesn't matter? It's only more relevant for folks who support a canidate that says one thing and does another...
Frankly, I really don't care about a person's religious views as much as their political views when I vote. I like Obama's politics, so for me, his religious views are mostly irrelevant.
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 11:12:22 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
How so? If a person's political views are in conflict with their faith we just to shrug our shoulders and act as if it doesn't matter? It's only more relevant for folks who support a canidate that says one thing and does another...
Frankly, I really don't care about a person's religious views as much as their political views when I vote. I like Obama's politics, so for me, his religious views are mostly irrelevant.
Bottom line is God is mostly irrelevant since what is right and just accoding to His word takes a backseat to the what man's says is right. Not only do you have man's way above God's, you have two masters...
One can pretend that who and what they vote for isn't connected to what they believe, but in the end we will have to account for every word and deed and God will not ignore secular matters and only deal wth matters of faith...
John
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 12:08:00 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Bottom line is God is mostly irrelevant since what is right and just accoding to His word takes a backseat to the what man's says is right.
Absolutely correct for political purposes. In fact, he says it himself. Ref Matt 22:21. Politics are a silly human institution, so at the end of the day, I am going to vote for the candidate that is probably best for the institution. Jesus does not want to be used as a political tool.
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One can pretend that who and what they vote for isn't connected to what they believe, but in the end we will have to account for every word and deed and God will not ignore secular matters and only deal wth matters of faith...
John
I will be happy to give God an account of who I voted for and why. Frankly, I think he is laughing right now at the significance many Christians place on a worldly event like an election. I was asked by Caesar to render an opinion on what would be the best Caesar for the long-term interests of the country. Obama seems more likely to reduce the debt while preserving civil liberties, so I feel that it is my constitutional obligation to vote for him.
But the real account we will have to give when we go before Jesus is the witness we provide to others. Frankly, even if my vote was a big deal to God, I would be ten times as concerned if my politics misrepresented the clear teachings that Christ gives us for dealing with our neighbors (including enemies).
I do not see how you can love your neighbor while praying that God kills him, as I think one recent poster has said he/she is doing (ref. Matt 5:43-45). I don't think you can love your neighbor while sharing rumors, gossip, or other unsubstantiated "facts" about him, as I've seen many on this forum do (ref. 2 Cor 12:20). You cannot love your neighbor if you are motivated by the forces of sinful nature (hatred, discord, faction, and envy among others; Ref. Gal 5:16-17.)
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 12:47:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Absolutely correct for political purposes. In fact, he says it himself. Ref Matt 22:21. Politics are a silly human institution, so at the end of the day, I am going to vote for the candidate that is probably best for the institution. Jesus does not want to be used as a political tool.
Jesus' call to give to Caeser what is his doesn't mean they God is absent or that one can do so without taking into account that God comes first and His laws are supreme and to be obeyed above all... Caeser's demands do not trump God...
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I will be happy to give God an account of who I voted for and why. Frankly, I think he is laughing right now at themany Christians place on a worldly event like an election.
It's not about placing significance... I doubt that God laughes at the fact people claim His name and vote for evil things like abortion and the homosexual agenda...
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I was asked by Caesar to render an opinion on what would be the best Caesar for the long-term interests of the country. Obama seems more likely to reduce the debt while preserving civil liberties, so I feel that it is my constitutional obligation to vote for him.
God's command to obey Him trumps what is asked or even required by Caeser...
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But the real account we will have to give when we go before Jesus is the witness we provide to others. Frankly, even if my vote was a big deal to God, I would be ten times as concerned if my politics misrepresented the clear teachings that Christ gives us for dealing with our neighbors (including enemies).
One's witness takes into account all actions and it's a a fallacy to believe politics are excluded. The idea that we can parcel our lives is founded in the belief that we only owe God a couple hours on Sunday and the rest of the week is ours...
The politics of Obama regarding abortion and the homosexual agenda cleary part ways with God's word and the teachings of Christ, which are one in the same...
John
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 2:12:51 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Jesus' call to give to Caeser what is his doesn't mean they God is absent or that one can do so without taking into account that God comes first and His laws are supreme and to be obeyed above all... Caeser's demands do not trump God...
Look, you can either take Christ at his word, or you can do some hand waving to justify dragging him through the political muck. I choose to take him at his word.
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It's not about placing significance... I doubt that God laughes at the fact people claim His name and vote for evil things like abortion and the homosexual agenda...
Can you name someone who construes God to support sexual immorality? I certainly can't.
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God's command to obey Him trumps what is asked or even required by Caeser...
Rendering an opinion that is specfically requested of us is not a moral action. It is an opinion. One can be of the opinion that liberal politicians should die, but one isn't guilty of a crime unless he/she actually takes specific action to make that happen. If you believe a vote is a moral action, perhaps those who wish liberal politicians dead should be tried for attempted murder for voting against said politicians.
In reality, a vote is an opinion, not a sin.
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One's witness takes into account all actions and it's a a fallacy to believe politics are excluded. The idea that we can parcel our lives is founded in the belief that we only owe God a couple hours on Sunday and the rest of the week is ours...
Exactly. My witness takes into account all actions. Thus, we should start by living lifestyles that are free from sexual immorality (something apparently most public Christians have trouble doing), and evidencing the fruit of the spirit (that probably involves not having such hate for a politician that we attack his/her reputation any chance we get). After we start with that, we can consider other things.
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The politics of Obama regarding abortion and the homosexual agenda cleary part ways with God's word and the teachings of Christ, which are one in the same...
Your point? The US government specifies that it does not have an official religion, so it demands a vote without specific deference to the teachings of Christ.
In any case, however, I have never seen a specific red letter text Bible verse be used to support a position for or against abortion. Jesus hung out with several former prostitutes who mysteriously didn't have kids, so it's actually entirely possible that he (gasp) felt it was ok to associate with such people as abortionists. You'd think he would have called them worse than Nazis or something...
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 3:08:42 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4183
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I wondered how long it would take someone to suggest this prayer was somehow an underhanded political ploy by the Obama campaign.
Congratulations. Cynicism surely lives in you.
because if obama knew it wouldn't be released he would have cursed america aka his reverend?
_____________________________
Photoblogging My Life
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 3:22:08 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
One can be of the opinion that liberal politicians should die, but one isn't guilty of a crime unless he/she actually takes specific action to make that happen. If you believe a vote is a moral action, perhaps those who wish liberal politicians dead should be tried for attempted murder for voting against said politicians.
In reality, a vote is an opinion, not a sin.
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Apparently actions are not necessarily required for sin to occur. Just the thought can sometimes be considered sin. The thought of lust is adultery, the thought or emotion of hate is considered equal to murder. So while no crime has physically occured, sin has.
As to the abortion issue and the prostitutes, please give an example of chapter and verse that shows the prostitutes had no children, or even that they had abortions. You are making assumptions here that Scripture does not support.
Also, the above verse mentioning murder also applies to the abortion issue. God declares that murder is sin and killing unborn babies is murder plain and simple.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 3:37:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Look, you can either take Christ at his word, or you can do some hand waving to justify dragging him through the political muck. I choose to take him at his word.
You are not taking Him at his word, you are using it to justify voting for a person who supports evil... Nothing in the verse you refered to says that one can support something in the political sphere and possible consquences may not apply... There is no do as you please clause in there...
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Can you name someone who construes God to support sexual immorality? I certainly can't.
Obama does by claiming Christ and supporting homosexuality, which is sexual immorality As well the many other"Christians" that say God blesses the union of two men or two women...
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Rendering an opinion that is specfically requested of us is not a moral action. It is an opinion. One can be of the opinion that liberal politicians should die, but one isn't guilty of a crime unless he/she actually takes specific action to make that happen. If you believe a vote is a moral action, perhaps those who wish liberal politicians dead should be tried for attempted murder for voting against said politicians.
A vote like any action is subject to judgment and can be a sin...
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In reality, a vote is an opinion, not a sin.
Absurd... A vote is direct support for whomever and whatever one is voting for...
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Exactly. My witness takes into account all actions.
Cept for voting, right? 
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Your point?
Obama's politics misrepresented the clear teachings that Christ, and the fact that he claims Christ makes his actions worse...
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The US government specifies that it does not have an official religion, so it demands a vote without specific deference to the teachings of Christ.
Where is the demand stated? Nothing implies nor states that one must ignore religion when casting their vote... And more important the bible doesn't say that, which is the supreme law, right?
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In any case, however, I have never seen a specific red letter text Bible verse be used to support a position for or against abortion.
I have never seen specific verse that says the red letter text means anything more or less than the other text...
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Jesus hung out with several former prostitutes who mysteriously didn't have kids, so it's actually entirely possible that he (gasp) felt it was ok to associate with such people as abortionists. You'd think he would have called them worse than Nazis or something...
Is the above some feeble attempt to say Jesus is ok with abortion? What's next He would bless gay unions?
John
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 5:08:20 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Both of these choices are clearly actions of the heart. Rendering an opinion simply isn't. There is a difference between being of the opinion that so-and-so is a better candidate and wishing in one's heart for more abortions.
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Apparently actions are not necessarily required for sin to occur. Just the thought can sometimes be considered sin. The thought of lust is adultery, the thought or emotion of hate is considered equal to murder. So while no crime has physically occured, sin has.
Of course action is always required! It may not be physical action, but there is cert
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As to the abortion issue and the prostitutes, please give an example of chapter and verse that shows the prostitutes had no children, or even that they had abortions. You are making assumptions here that Scripture does not support.
The conservative evangelical tradition for interpreting the case of the woman caught in adultery is to note that a man wasn't also on trial, and that Jesus was simply trying to ensure justice- not mercy. Surely, we can note that these women didn't have any children despite being relatively promiscuous.
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Also, the above verse mentioning murder also applies to the abortion issue. God declares that murder is sin and killing unborn babies is murder plain and simple.
The fact that one votes Democrat doesn't necessarily mean that one does so to spite unborn babies.
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 5:29:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Both of these choices are clearly actions of the heart. Rendering an opinion simply isn't. There is a difference between being of the opinion that so-and-so is a better candidate and wishing in one's heart for more abortions.
Voting for someone who supports abortion is support for abortion... You can pick who you want to vote for, but you cannot pick and choose what you support regarding the perosn's politics...
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The conservative evangelical tradition for interpreting the case of the woman caught in adultery is to note that a man wasn't also on trial, and that Jesus was simply trying to ensure justice- not mercy.
Actually if you read the account verse 6 speaks to why she was brought to Jesus... To accuse Him... They didn't adhere to law in regards to procedure, Jesus wasn't the authority, and they brought her forward to do injustice, not for the sake of justice...
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Surely, we can note that these women didn't have any children despite being relatively promiscuous.
Where is it stated they were without child? Not to mention even so, it doesn't remove the fact that abortion is murder and the bible condemns it...
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The fact that one votes Democrat doesn't necessarily mean that one does so to spite unborn babies.
How does one who votes for those who support the murder of unborn children avoid supporting it themselves? By claiming one only supports the good parts? I am trying to recall a verse that would grant one relief for doing so but I can't recall one...
John
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 5:31:04 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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quote:
The conservative evangelical tradition for interpreting the case of the woman caught in adultery is to note that a man wasn't also on trial, and that Jesus was simply trying to ensure justice- not mercy. Surely, we can note that these women didn't have any children despite being relatively promiscuous.
So because she wasn't married indicates she didn't have children???? I am well aware of the analogy that the man was not put on trial thus the crowd was being hypocritical but how in the world does that imply that the woman didn't have children.
I'm not saying that she did all I'm saying is that Scripture doesn't say either way and by making the assertion that she didn't children therefor she must have had an abortion is reading into Scripture far more than it says.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 5:31:27 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Of course action is always required! It may not be physical action, but there is cert
Not doing something can be a sin... James... For those who know to do good and they don't, it is a sin...
John
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 7:15:03 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
True, but one is more relevant than the other.
OK, let's look at the practices in England that were put in place because of people of faith affected politics. Child labor prohibited. Slavery prohibited. Animal abuse prohibited (SPCA started), Salvation Army started to end homeless/drunkenness. Faith must drive actions/beliefs,
Israel was condemed for accepting the pagan god Molech and the pratice of placing babies in an oven as an act of worship. Abortion takes place in 99 percent of the cases to worship the god of convenience.
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 7:20:27 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Of course action is always required! It may not be physical action, but there is cert
Not doing something can be a sin... James... For those who know to do good and they don't, it is a sin...
John
That's true, too, but it always refers to deliberate actions. The fact that there is a homeless person somewhere in NYC doesn't mean that I'm sinning by not doing everything I can to track him down and help him. Now, my decision to ignore someone who is starving to death would be a sin, because I am actively denying my responsibility.
So the Bible is pretty clear on sin:
If you're not supposed to do something, and you do it, it's a sin.
If you're supposed to do something and you don't do it, it's a sin.
Note that both involve action. Not opinion.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 7/28/2008 7:28:34 PM >
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 7:25:42 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1584
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
OK, let's look at the practices in England that were put in place because of people of faith affected politics.
Good idea!
Let's see...the burning of witches and "heretics," the Inquisition, the Spanish plunder and enslavement of the native peoples of Mexico, Christian inter-faith warfare, The Crusades, rampant anti-Semitism in the Middle Ages and onward...
Whew, I'm getting tired....
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 7:36:55 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Voting for someone who supports abortion is support for abortion... You can pick who you want to vote for, but you cannot pick and choose what you support regarding the perosn's politics...
That's only if you consider abortion a major issue. Frankly, I don't. Besides the fact that Roe vs. Wade has remained in place despite abortion clinic bombings, death threats, and all sorts of non-fruit-of-the-spirit behavior by Christians, I really don't find the fact that a mother would kill her unborn child very shocking. It is a reality of the broken world we live in.
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Where is it stated they were without child? Not to mention even so, it doesn't remove the fact that abortion is murder and the bible condemns it...
Where was it stated that the person she was caught with wasn't there?
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How does one who votes for those who support the murder of unborn children avoid supporting it themselves? By claiming one only supports the good parts? I am trying to recall a verse that would grant one relief for doing so but I can't recall one...
I guess I inadvertently do. Those who drive cars inadvertently support flooding millions of peoples' homes. Those who use electricity inadvertently support giving millions of children asthma. Those who watch television inadvertently support the glorification of immoral behavior.
I guess we could all go off and live as hermits, but for those who choose to participate in the world, there will be a lot of things we inadvertently "support".
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 7:39:22 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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and libs created all wisdom and well-being. NOT
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 7:41:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
That's true, too, but it always refers to deliberate actions. The fact that there is a homeless person somewhere in NYC doesn't mean that I'm sinning by not doing everything I can to track him down and help him.
That is not in question...
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Now, my decision to ignore someone who is starving to death would be a sin, because I am actively denying my responsibility.
So the Bible is pretty clear on sin:
If you're not supposed to do something, and you do it, it's a sin.
If you're supposed to do something and you don't do it, it's a sin.
Note that both involve action. Not opinion.
A vote for someone is an action stemming from one's opinion... A vote is support for either something or someone... If one votes for a law that allow gays to marry they are not simply expressing their opinion, they are voting to enact something... When one votes for a candidate they do because they believe the candidate will enact what views they hold... You believe Obama will do X, Y and Z regarding the economy, you are not simply expressing you opinion that you agree with Obama, you are voting in support of his desire to be elected. Well, like it or not some nasty baggage comes with Obama and one cannot help put support it if they vote for him…
Telling a pollster you like Obama is an opinion... Voting for him is direct support and signing off on his agenda... Two very different things...
John
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 8:03:43 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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One votes for the candidate he believes best respresents his beliiefs/values to represent him in the seats of government.
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 10:29:23 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I have to believe God takes issue with the murder of 3500 unborn children daily...
Yes, but he doesn't take issue with votes. Most likely, he takes issue with the mothers and fathers who shirk their responsibility as parents. That is between them and God- not the government.
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And that is just cause for supporting it?
This is just cause for moving on to the problems that we actually can solve.
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I wonder iwhat the ratio of dead children to non-fruit-of-the-spirit behavior by Christians is? Btw... What side does support for abortion by Christian fall on?
I don't think many Christians support more abortions. Personally, I just think there's better uses for my vote.
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He wasn't brought forward... My guess is that he was one of the first to pick up a rock...
Exactly, and the kids were buried in the backyard.
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Inadvertently? The implies one is not very well informed of what is going on...
Surely, you have been informed of global warming, air pollution, and tv's support of sexual immorality. I guess that makes you a sinner for engaging in practices that cause this harm, anyways.
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One votes for the candidate he believes best respresents his beliiefs/values to represent him in the seats of government.
No. One votes for the best candidate for the country. Naturally, that's influenced by values, but we ultimately have a responsibility to vote for the person we think will be best for the country's long-term interests.
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/28/2008 11:15:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Yes, but he doesn't take issue with votes.
Based on what? How can a vote for something He takes issue not be part of the issue?
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Most likely, he takes issue with the mothers and fathers who shirk their responsibility as parents. That is between them and God- not the government.
There is nothing out of the scope of God...
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This is just cause for moving on to the problems that we actually can solve.
That might suffice, but if you support the "problem" in solving the other problems how is that not an issue?
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I don't think many Christians support more abortions.
Roughly half do...
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Surely, you have been informed of global warming, air pollution, and tv's support of sexual immorality. I guess that makes you a sinner for engaging in practices that cause this harm, anyways.
Surely you jest... Nice try though...
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No. One votes for the best candidate for the country. Naturally, that's influenced by values, but we ultimately have a responsibility to vote for the person we think will be best for the country's long-term interests.
A Christian's responsibility is God first and above all and there is no duty required of us that allows one to break His laws...
John
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/29/2008 9:47:11 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1963
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Based on what? How can a vote for something He takes issue not be part of the issue?
I don't think God is that small or petty to really care about how people vote in politics. If he really is as petty as you say, then he really isn't the kind of God I or most Christians would be interested in worshipping. Fortunately, he isn't.
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There is nothing out of the scope of God...
There isn't, but there are some things he is able to realize are largely irrelevant.
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That might suffice, but if you support the "problem" in solving the other problems how is that not an issue?
Again, I sometimes need to drive to to work, so even though I know that hurts the environment and is liable to eventually put millions of people underwater, I still drive there anyway. You probably do, too. Do you carry a guilty conscience because you contribute to global warming?
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Roughly half do...
Oh, many accept that abortion will stay legal, but I think that few people who accept the legal reality actually want people to have more abortions.
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Surely you jest... Nice try though...
Well, contributing to putting millions of people underwater is sin in the same way that contributing to the deaths of millions of unborn children is also sin. Shall we call people murderers because they drive cars? Fornicators because they watch television? Assaulters because their electricity use gives kids asthma?
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A Christian's responsibility is God first and above all and there is no duty required of us that allows one to break His laws...
Both Paul and Christ specifically states that our responsibility on legal matters is almost always to the state, first.
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RE: Obama's Western Wall Prayer Published - 7/29/2008 9:53:00 AM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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quote:
No. One votes for the best candidate for the country. Naturally, that's influenced by values, but we ultimately have a responsibility to vote for the person we think will be best for the country's long-term interests.
I guess the depends on what you feel is best for the long-term interests of this country. If it is financial gain in exchange for a corrupt value system, such as gay marriage, gay rights, abortion rights, acceptance of the world government agenda, etc.. then yes, I think God will take issue with it.
When Jesus was on trial and all the Jews were chanting for the release of Barabas they were voting for what they thought was best. And while the death of Christ was ultimately what was best for the world God still holds them accountable for their vote.
Many times when Peter preached to the Jews he brought this up, telling them that they killed Jesus and he attributed this as sin. So our votes do matter as they show what we support, were our values stand and what is most important to us.
You cannot server two masters, God and mammon.
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Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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